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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 4/27/2002 9:15:10 PM EDT
I was wondering why almost every photo I see of Israeli soldiers includes them carrying some variation of the M-16 family. I was under the impression that the Galil family of weapons were extremely well built weapons. Maybe I'm getting them confused with something else, but from all accounts, I remember the Galil being rated quite high on the list of the worlds great small arms. Very rugged, very reliable 5.56 and available in a wide range of configurations. Why would Israel use our weapons when they make one that is arguably as good as the M-16 family? Do they still make Galil's?
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 9:17:25 PM EDT
... one word GRAVITY
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 12:32:19 AM EDT
the only galils i saw in israel where micros used by vehicle crews as PDWs
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 12:46:04 AM EDT
Gravity is a good reason as I understand Galils are heavy. Free M16's is another good reason.
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 2:47:05 AM EDT
The Israeli's get so many billion is US aid every, the only stipulation is that the majority needs to be spent in the US. Now they can spend that money anyway they want, either buying high dollar items, or low dollar items, if they wanted a US built Galil, HK or FN I am sure that almost any major arms fire would make those weapons (hundreds of thousands to millions of weapons for many million dollars) for them in the US to be compliant with the mandates of our aid package. But they choose, like many other nations to carry the M16.
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 7:30:17 AM EDT
Here's a piece I read over at tacticalforums, I think it clarifies things a bit...
Dear Sirs As the webmaster of isayeret.com I usually don't reply in forums (not enough time) but since this is a repetitive question, I'll make an exception. 1. As a former member of the Israeli Special Forces most of my experience is with the M16, Galil and the AK47. Thus I will not compare the Galil/M16 with other assault rifles I'm less familiar with. But between the M16 and the Galil the M16 is by FAR the more superior weapon. It's lighter, more accurate, more versatile, and with proper maintenance is very reliable. True, it might be less sand proof. So what? You can clean it once a day and it will work like a charm. I've carried a CAR15 for almost five years it's a great weapon. The Galil on the other hand, is heavy, not accurate and you can't put any optics on it without special adapters. Many people also don't like the Galil/AK safety mechanism but that's more an issue of a personal preference. 2. The reason for the IDF choice of using the M16 over the Galil ISN'T the cost. It’s the pure quality of the M16 over the crappy Galil. Most of IDF troops hate the Galil and will take a CAR15 over it any day. In fact it's the other way around! The reason that the IDF buy Israeli weapons is because it's forced too by inner-Israeli political pressure. For example, the IMI forced the Israeli Police to buy the Jericho 941 handguns. The IDF manage to escape the pressure in this case and got the much better Sig 228/226. 3. The M16 is indeed cheaper but if it was the cost factor alone then the IDF could have simply supply all the rear line troops with the M16 and give the Galil to the front line troops. The fact that the opposite was done speaks for itself. In the IDF elite SF units, for example, the Galil was never used! They always wanted the CAR15 over it. 4. IMI is a crappy company. It's very non efficient and in many times IMI failed to deliver spare parts in time. You simply can't depend on them in a time of need. 5. contrary to the previous post, the Galil SAR, which is the most common Galil variant used by the IDF, has a 13 inch barrel while the CAR15 used has a 14.5 inch barrel (like a M4/M4A1). Best regards, Daniel Cohen, Webmaster http://www.isayeret.com The Israeli Special Forces Home Page
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Link Posted: 4/28/2002 10:01:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DarkNite: Here's a piece I read over at tacticalforums, I think it clarifies things a bit...
The M16 is indeed cheaper but if it was the cost factor alone then the IDF could have simply supply all the rear line troops with the M16 and give the Galil to the front line troops.
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I'll bet that billions of dollars of U.S.-taxpayer-paid military aid with the requirement that most of it be spent on U.S. military contactors would have something to do with it also. [(:|)]
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 12:13:52 PM EDT
Recently had the pleasure of checking out two Israeli Galils in Guatemala. All the inscriptions were in Hebrew, once in a lifetime opportunity for me.
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 11:38:54 PM EDT
The Galil ARM in 5.56 I tested was very well built. It had factory night sights, built in bipod, and a folding stock that is so sturdy that Uzel demoed it by smashing open wood ammo crates without damage. Ya it was heavy.
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 1:50:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/30/2002 2:40:25 AM EDT by DvlDog]
i fell in love with the micro galils. kind of like a krinkov for non-commies. i agree with that Sayaret veteran. IMI hardware sucks, but they sure can slap together some damn fine ammo!!!...also in my visits to israel i didnt see one orlite...not ONE!!!
Link Posted: 4/29/2002 10:01:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By PoliticalScience: I'll bet that billions of dollars of U.S.-taxpayer-paid military aid with the requirement that most of it be spent on U.S. military contactors would have something to do with it also. [(:|)]
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Since they already produced quite a few Galils, one presumes that they are a paid for item, and paid for Galils are cheaper than cheap CAR-15s.
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 4:22:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DonS:
Originally Posted By PoliticalScience: I'll bet that billions of dollars of U.S.-taxpayer-paid military aid with the requirement that most of it be spent on U.S. military contactors would have something to do with it also. [(:|)]
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Since they already produced quite a few Galils, one presumes that they are a paid for item, and paid for Galils are cheaper than cheap CAR-15s.
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Yup, but you can turn around and sell those already paid for Galils on the open market for hard cash and arm your troops with free rifles from the US. It's like if your company car provided to you free was just about the same thing as your personal car. Would you keep your personal car if you knew you could sell it for just as much as you bought it for in cash? Especially if the company is willing to give you a new car anytime you wear the old one out? Ross
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 4:47:32 AM EDT
the galil is heavy...very heavy. its' use is now relegated to mechanized troops, for the most parts. from what i am told, it is no longer in production, although there are large quantities held in reserve stocks. despite daniel's claims, i have found the galil to be among the finest rifles ever made. although not as accurate as an m-16, the reliability rating in all tests has been very good. given a choice of the two rifles...and knowing i had to lug it around for long distances or time periods, i would choose the m-16. for reliabilty in desert conditions as the only criteria, i would choose the galil.
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 10:44:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ross: Yup, but you can turn around and sell those already paid for Galils on the open market for hard cash and arm your troops with free rifles from the US. Ross
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I don't know, from all the pictures I've seen, their rifles look pretty beat to heck. That isayaret.com site stated a lot of their rifles were from the 70's.
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 11:38:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/30/2002 11:43:37 AM EDT by Bostonterrier97]
IMI Galil 5.56mm AR [img]http://server1.ehostpros.com/~gunsworld.com/imi/graphs/556ar.gif[/img] Operation Gas operated, rotating bolt Safety system Fire selector in "S" position Caliber .223 Rem. (5.56mm NATO) Front sight Post type, adjustable elevation; Base adjustable for windage; Flip-up tritium sight for night firing Rear sight "L" flip type, adjustable elevation; Standard 300m and 500m settings; Flip-up tritium sight for night firing Stocks Rear: folding metal Front: reinforced polymer Finish Matte black Barrel length 16.1 in Overall length Stock extended: 36.5 in Stock folded: 27.2 in Weight unloaded 8.6 lb [img]http://www.combatsimulations.com/ar15/ea9500-1.gif[/img] CALIBER .223 REM (5.56 MM NATO) MODES OF FIRE: SAFE/SEMI/AUTO/BURST 20/30/40 ROUND MAGAZINE 39.25" OVERALL LENGTH 20" BARREL LENGTH RIFLING - 1 IN 7" OR 1 IN 9" OR 1 IN 12" WEIGHT W/O MAG. - 7.5 LBS (3.4 KG) WEIGHT W/LOADED MAG. - 8.75 LBS (4 KG) It seems like the Galil is actually a little LIGHTER than the M16A2. I can readily see the preference of having an M4 Carbine though..at least in terms of weight
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 11:57:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/30/2002 11:59:35 AM EDT by Bostonterrier97]
On the Other hand..the Galil MAR (Galil's Answer to the M4 Carbine) Weighs in at: 6.6 lbs which is only 1 lb heavier than the M4 Carbine [img]http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/galil/newgal-6.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/galil/micro-1.gif[/img] [img]http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/galil/micro-2.gif[/img] Compared to an Uzi... [img]http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/galil/mar+uzi.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/galil/micgalil2.gif[/img] The new Galil..also takes AR C-Mags... [img]http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/galil/c-mag.gif[/img] And like the M4..you can mount all kinds of goodies on it..coupled with the Legendary Reliability of the AK design.. [img]http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/galil/gal-tac.jpg[/img] Of course..if I had one..I would be a happy camper too... [img]http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/galil/micro-1-1-92.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 11:58:12 AM EDT
Hmmm picking between free guns and guns that cost money... hmmm hard choice! Isnt it funny they have to make the Tavor in the USA so that it can be subsidized by your government?
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 12:12:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 1:10:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest: Did you actually READ what you posted? Its very clear the Galil is MORE than a pound [b]heavier[/b] than the M16A2. Jeez a loaded M16A2 is about the same weight as an UNLOADED Galil.
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Maybe the AK crowd thinks that the enemy will be so impressed by the Galil's reputation that they will fall down dead of heart failure, thus making a loaded mag unnecessary... [:D]
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 1:14:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ross: Yup, but you can turn around and sell those already paid for Galils on the open market for hard cash and arm your troops with free rifles from the US.
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Yes, but they could also turn around and sell the M4/M16 rifles as well. They could probably get more money for the M4/M16 rifles.
Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97: [edited for length -James] IMI Galil 5.56mm AR Barrel length 16.1 in Overall length Stock extended: 36.5 in Weight unloaded 8.6 lb [M16A2] 39.25" OVERALL LENGTH 20" BARREL LENGTH WEIGHT W/O MAG. - 7.5 LBS (3.4 KG) WEIGHT W/LOADED MAG. - 8.75 LBS (4 KG) It seems like the Galil is actually a little LIGHTER than the M16A2.
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From your data, it would seem that the M16A2 is actually lighter than the Galil when comparing unloaded weight to unloaded weight. In fact, your data above suggests that the M16A2 is only 4 ounces heavier *fully loaded* than an unloaded Galil. In addition, you get a 4 inch longer barrel with only a 2.75 inch longer overall length. We should take Mr. Cohen at his word, that the M4/M16 platform is preferred over the AK/Galil platform regardless of "backroom deals" claimed here. (Full Disclosure: I copied and pasted his response on tacticalforums.com.) In fact, all of the online media I have read indicates that the U.S. gives Israel cash at the beginning of the year. I have read no evidence that "buy American" is ever stipulated. Someone please post a link substantiating this. I do not know why people are so surprised that the M4/M16 is preferred over AK/Galil variants. The M16 is a more recent design using more sophisticated manufacturing technology than the stamped AK design. The M16 package is more efficient in terms of OAL than the Galil. A longer barrel improves the terminal ballistics of the 5.56x45mm. Now before someone chimes in with M16/AK caliber argument, I will. Bullets incapacitate by... 1) Destroying the central nervous system [CNS](brain or spinal cord shot) 2) Destroying tissue and causing bleeding 3) Destroying function (i.e., destroying the function of the shooting hand, arm, etc.) 4) Psychologically incapacitating them (the get shot and don't want to fight no more) A CNS shot (#1) is difficult and only luck will ensure a destroying shot (#3). No one would want to depend on a psychological stop (#4) so we are left with destroying tissue and causing bleeding (#2). Note that the blood does not need to leave the body to "bleed" ...just leave the control of the circulatory system. Flesh cut/destroyed internally is "bleeding." The brain senses loss of circulatory "pressure" and shuts down the body to preserve circulatory pressure to the brain. The 5.56x45 rounds destroy more tissue at close range than 7.62x39 rounds so long as the barrel length allows the 5.56 to accelerate past the 2500-2700fps that ensures reliable fragmentation. [continued...]
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 1:16:43 PM EDT
[...continued] When a 5.56 round traveling above 2500-2700fps hits flesh, the round begins to invert (turn 180 degrees and travel base forward). Because the round is traveling above 1900-2100fps (the "rifle threshold"), the speed of the round causes a temporary cavity. As the 5.56 inverts, its speed causes the round to fragment and these fragments perforate the temporary cavity...multiplying the amount of tissue destroyed. Imagine blowing a long, quick breath into one of those skinny balloons that clowns twist into animal shapes. Then immediately prick the inflated part with a pin. What results is not a hole but a rip where the pin contacted the balloon. (Try inflating a balloon and pricking it with a pin. The pinhole becomes a massive rip.) That inflated area is the temporary cavity and a fragmenting 5.56x45 sends multiple "pin pricks" into that cavity--each tearing the cavity and destroying tissue (and, in turn, causing bleeding). When a 7.62x51 or 7.62x39 round hits flesh, it also inverts but it does not fragment. No bullets really "tumble" in flesh (which invokes the image of the "Agony of Defeat" skier going head over heels 20 times). They merely invert--meaning they turn 180 degrees and travel base-first until they stop. Back to our balloon… After the long, quick breath to inflate the balloon, only a single pinprick perforates the inflated portion because these rounds do not fragment. The remaining cavity (probably bruised and sore) returns to normal. One final scenario… If any round is traveling below the 1900-2100fps "rifle threshold" then there is no temporary cavity. The tissue that the bullet passes through either flexes to move out to the way or crushes if that portion of the tissue cannot move. Most of the tissue moves out of the way and leaves a wounding profile similar to a handgun. So... 2500-2700fps and greater = fragmenting contributes the most damage... 5.56 > 7.62. 1900-2500fps = caliber & weight contribute the most damage... 7.62 > 5.56. 1900fps and below = handgun round (very little damage) Some 7.62x51 ammunition fragments like the 5.56x45 (Hirtenberger?). It would perform proportionally better than 5.56x45 traveling at the same speed. However, it needs to be fired from a barrel at lease 21 inches long to achieve 2700fps. The 7.62x39 round is an inferior rifle round. 7.62x51 (7.62 NATO or .308Win) 7.62x39 (7.62 Soviet or .30 Soviet) 7.62x33 (.30cal M1 Carbine) 7.62x39 is closer to the M1 Carbine than the 7.62 NATO. The muzzle velocity is 2300fps out of a 20-inch barrel. Out of a 13 to 16-inch barrel, the muzzle velocity will be the same as a .30cal M1 Carbine and below the "rifle threshold" (1900-2100fps). This leads back to the discussion of overall length (OAL) and barrel length. The longest Galil seems to have a 16.1-inch barrel with their carbine version having a 13-inch barrel and their "Micro" version having a 7.75-inch barrel. The M4/M16 series can outfit a longer barrel in a package of similar overall length. That longer barrel means the 5.56x45 will travel a longer distance before dropping below 2500-2700fps. The Micro Galil will perform worse than a 10-inch M4/M16.
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 2:07:14 PM EDT
I thought the Galil was not much more heavier then the M16 (but then my Colt is an HBAR). It is more front heavy. I thought the Galil had a milled reciever, not a stamped reciever. Earlier Galil's were based the the Finnish Valmet.
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