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Posted: 9/3/2005 6:27:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 6:32:07 AM EDT by BenDover]
Just heard it on MSNBC. GWB has suspended posse comitatus and is deploying 82nd.

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9186823/
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:31:32 AM EDT
He suspended what?
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:32:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:33:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 6:33:45 AM EDT by BenDover]

Originally Posted By maddog_enigma:
He suspended what?



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act


Well, that's the Federal response they're getting. Active military troops deployed on domestic soil for the purpose of law enforcement.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:33:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:34:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:35:27 AM EDT
Good. Happy hunting 82nd.

Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:36:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Paul:

Originally Posted By maddog_enigma:
He suspended what?



The law which prohibits the use of the military on US soil to enforce the law. I would have thought declairing martial law would have worked too.



"Martial Law" has a negative sound to it. Most sheeple have no idea what posse comitatus means.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:36:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By maddog_enigma:
He suspended what?



He suspended the stupid, civil-war era law that says regular-Army can't be deployed for law enforcement duty or civil-disturbances.

Said law was passed in the wake of the civil-war reconstruction (when the Army was sent to keep order in former-rebel territory), but it's still with us now, and normally would forbid sending federal troops to stop looting, or similar...

Federal troops under federal command -> Looters, you ain't in Kansas anymore....

Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:36:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By maddog_enigma:
He suspended what?



This
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:39:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By maddog_enigma:
He suspended what?



He suspended the stupid, civil-war era law that says regular-Army can't be deployed for law enforcement duty or civil-disturbances.

Said law was passed in the wake of the civil-war reconstruction (when the Army was sent to keep order in former-rebel territory), but it's still with us now, and normally would forbid sending federal troops to stop looting, or similar...

Federal troops under federal command -> Looters, you ain't in Kansas anymore....





You think this is a stupid law? You should maybe go read some of the founding fathers
writings again before stating that. It's clear you are not aware of the reasons behind this.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:42:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By maddog_enigma:
He suspended what?



He suspended the stupid, civil-war era law that says regular-Army can't be deployed for law enforcement duty or civil-disturbances.

Said law was passed in the wake of the civil-war reconstruction (when the Army was sent to keep order in former-rebel territory), but it's still with us now, and normally would forbid sending federal troops to stop looting, or similar...

Federal troops under federal command -> Looters, you ain't in Kansas anymore....





You think this is a stupid law? You should maybe go read some of the founding fathers
writings again before stating that. It's clear you are not aware of the reasons behind this.



Military coup anyone?
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:44:02 AM EDT
Get those fucking armed thugs 82nd!! And oh yeah, get that fucking rap "star" as well.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:45:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:46:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 6:46:35 AM EDT by Leisure_Shoot]

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By maddog_enigma:
He suspended what?



He suspended the stupid, civil-war era law that says regular-Army can't be deployed for law enforcement duty or civil-disturbances.

Said law was passed in the wake of the civil-war reconstruction (when the Army was sent to keep order in former-rebel territory), but it's still with us now, and normally would forbid sending federal troops to stop looting, or similar...

Federal troops under federal command -> Looters, you ain't in Kansas anymore....





You think this is a stupid law? You should maybe go read some of the founding fathers
writings again before stating that. It's clear you are not aware of the reasons behind this.



While I have no doubt at all that Bush is doing this with the best of intentions and that it may be the best solution in the current circumstance, the law exists for a reason. Federal troops intermingling with citizens is not a good thing. Look how wonderfully it worked for the Germans in the 30's and 40's, and the Russians in the 18th and 20th century.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:47:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 6:48:10 AM EDT by BenDover]
I dunno... even though it wasn't on their site, MSNBC reported live on the air that he had suspended Posse Comitatus for areas in the Gulf Region. That's what got my attention as I was only half listening to the TV in the background.

I am not sure what the legal distinctions would be. Any constitutional law attorneys awake on here this morning?
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:48:51 AM EDT
Oh its the evil bush at it again. Who was pres when Andrew hit Florida? He suspended it also and deployed AD troops to the area, Not like its some big deal. Just remember:

Kent State: 0
OHARNG: 3
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:49:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Federal troops under federal command -> Looters, you ain't in Kansas anymore....



HEY!


We would have never let'm get this far to begin with.


Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:51:05 AM EDT
When and if they have to shoot some of these barbarians the media will claim they would not have been killed if they were white.

I think what will happen is the looters and shooters will suddenly turn into meek little victims. So, the situation will be under control and everyone can say that Bush should have done this days ago.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:52:13 AM EDT
It's also known as "Pussy Communist" (from the movie "Tank" with James Garner, 1984)
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:53:46 AM EDT
Normally I would be VERY concerned about armed military in the streets of the USA. But in this case I believe it is the right call. This has escalated way too far, and the message has to be sent to everyone, not just the thugs in NO, that the law will be enforced. The response must be swift and effective, and last only long enough to bring the situation under control for the safety of the rescuers and law abiding citizens still there. The fact that it has come to this is a very sad commentary on the state of our nation.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:54:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 6:55:07 AM EDT by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By maddog_enigma:
He suspended what?



He suspended the stupid, civil-war era law that says regular-Army can't be deployed for law enforcement duty or civil-disturbances.

Said law was passed in the wake of the civil-war reconstruction (when the Army was sent to keep order in former-rebel territory), but it's still with us now, and normally would forbid sending federal troops to stop looting, or similar...

Federal troops under federal command -> Looters, you ain't in Kansas anymore....





You think this is a stupid law? You should maybe go read some of the founding fathers
writings again before stating that. It's clear you are not aware of the reasons behind this.



The 'founding fathers' not only did not see the need for such a law, but Washington himself engaged in what would be a violation of said law by using federalized troops to end a tax revolt (an otherwise civil law enforcement issue).

The fact remains that (1) This law was enacted in 1878 as a response to civil-war reconstruction, and (2) it does nothing to prevent a coup (if that is to happen, a simple law will not stand in the way)...

It's a relic of an era when certain political interests did not want the Army doing law enforcement work in the former CSA, where the Army was sometimes the only force that would enforce certain laws the (former rebel) locals found somewhat unsavory.

It has no place in modern times, where all it does is prevent the use of the regular Army in situations like the present disaster relief.

Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:57:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 7:09:22 AM EDT by Nefarius]

Originally Posted By Oslow:
When and if they have to shoot some of these barbarians the media will claim they would not have been killed if they were white.

I think what will happen is the looters and shooters will suddenly turn into meek little victims. So, the situation will be under control and everyone can say that Bush should have done this days ago.



Dont count on that, they have freedom to run NOLA like Somali warlords right now, and when the 82nd starts taking that away there will defintely be shooting. The good news being that Airborne units WONT hunker down and wait, they will shoot, displace, flank, and overcome the threat.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 6:59:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dilbert_556:
Normally I would be VERY concerned about armed military in the streets of the USA. But in this case I believe it is the right call. This has escalated way too far, and the message has to be sent to everyone, not just the thugs in NO, that the law will be enforced. The response must be swift and effective, and last only long enough to bring the situation under control for the safety of the rescuers and law abiding citizens still there. The fact that it has come to this is a very sad commentary on the state of our nation.



It is quite sad when the NG is not allowed to use neccicary force to maintain order.... But that's what the state folks are doing here...

Hopefully the Feds will be allowed to be more agressive, especially considering what unit is providing the troops...
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:01:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By Dilbert_556:
Normally I would be VERY concerned about armed military in the streets of the USA. But in this case I believe it is the right call. This has escalated way too far, and the message has to be sent to everyone, not just the thugs in NO, that the law will be enforced. The response must be swift and effective, and last only long enough to bring the situation under control for the safety of the rescuers and law abiding citizens still there. The fact that it has come to this is a very sad commentary on the state of our nation.



It is quite sad when the NG is not allowed to use neccicary force to maintain order.... But that's what the state folks are doing here...

Hopefully the Feds will be allowed to be more agressive, especially considering what unit is providing the troops...



That's really what this is about. Bush sending Blanco the message that she is wholly inadequate to lead.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:02:57 AM EDT
IIRC the 82d has a pretty good record in being deployed stateside into urban centers populated by people not of european or asian lineage. Detroit? Arkansas College desegregation?

Also the 82d aint the "Good Ol Boy's Club" like some other units in the military, there is a pretty good chance that if any looters were to be shot by them, it would probably be a Black or Latino PFC doing the shooting.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:03:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dilbert_556:
Normally I would be VERY concerned about armed military in the streets of the USA. But in this case I believe it is the right call. This has escalated way too far, and the message has to be sent to everyone, not just the thugs in NO, that the law will be enforced. The response must be swift and effective, and last only long enough to bring the situation under control for the safety of the rescuers and law abiding citizens still there. The fact that it has come to this is a very sad commentary on the state of our nation.



AMEN to this.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:08:27 AM EDT
It was not until the 82nd arrived that I felt at peace here when Andrew struck, no slur on the National Guard maybe they have changed but during Andrew they were some overweight, longhaired and non military bearing individuals in '92.....
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:09:09 AM EDT
The libs at work kept saying "federal troops" yesterdy at work, and I kept telling thenm it was illegal because of PC. Last night I reread the act.


Originally Posted By Dave_A:
It has no place in modern times, where all it does is prevent the use of the regular Army in situations like the present disaster relief.








And I want you to remember this ignorant statement when you, or worse yet your grandchildren are being fired upon by American troops. Your logic reminds me of the libs who cannot see the potential danger in using American troops on American soil. This is indeed a dangerous precedent and a slippery slope to exerting unrestrained power over Americans at the whim of a sitting President. The Executive branch should not have this much power. .

From what I read............


SEC. 15. From and after the passage of this act it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress; and no money appropriated by this act shall be used to pay any of the expenses incurred in the employment of any troops in violation of this section And any person willfully violating the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction thereof shall be punished by fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars or imprisonment not exceeding two years or by both such fine and imprisonment.


IMO, GW has no authority to suspend PC, he is indeed guilty of a misdermeanor.

I do personally think its ok to use them in a non-LEO capacity,. both in my opinion and under the provisions of PC. Support functions and other non LEO relief actions are fine, but as for doing LEO work......




"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams



Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:10:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:


It has no place in modern times, where all it does is prevent the use of the regular Army in situations like the present disaster relief.




Yeah, the founding fathers didn't understand that whole "freedom" thing did they....

And you must not have read the Posse Comitatus Act, because the President can suspend
the act at any time for short term, with longer term suspension upon Congressional approval.

That's what's being done here, so why should the law be changed? It is clearly working
as it was intented.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:10:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 7:18:54 AM EDT by napalm]

Originally Posted By Nefarius:

Originally Posted By Oslow:
When and if they have to shoot some of these barbarians the media will claim they would not have been killed if they were white.

I think what will happen is the looters and shooters will suddenly turn into meek little victims. So, the situation will be under control and everyone can say that Bush should have done this days ago.



Dont count on that, they have freedom to run NOLA like Somali warlords right now, and when the 82nd starts taking that away there will definetly be shooting. The good news being that Airborne units WONT hunker down and wait, they will shoot, displace, flank, and overcome the threat.



Shoot, move, communicate.


I wonder what the looters are going to do once they're on the receiving end of the ol' "return fire, seek cover, gain fire superiority" schtick.

[shithouse lawyer] But...but...but.... the Army can't have any ammo in their weapons! Only the Marines and Navy can do that! [/shithouse lawyer]
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:13:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:17:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:
(cue the Alex Jones alarmists)





I dont know who Alex Jones is, but I stand vigilant at the foot of liberty.

I hope you never have to thank me for it.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:20:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By napalm:

Originally Posted By Nefarius:

Originally Posted By Oslow:
When and if they have to shoot some of these barbarians the media will claim they would not have been killed if they were white.

I think what will happen is the looters and shooters will suddenly turn into meek little victims. So, the situation will be under control and everyone can say that Bush should have done this days ago.



Dont count on that, they have freedom to run NOLA like Somali warlords right now, and when the 82nd starts taking that away there will definetly be shooting. The good news being that Airborne units WONT hunker down and wait, they will shoot, displace, COMMUNICATE, flank, and overcome the threat.



Shoot, move, communicate. hug.gifhithouse


OK FINE....Happy now?
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:20:36 AM EDT
So, Posse Comitatus Act can be suspended REGIONALLY or by state or city for that matter. OR is saying "in the Gulf Region" simply a crock of crap to appease those of us concerned (DIDN'T SAYA AGAINST) about the military performing law enforcement duties. Just wondering.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:21:14 AM EDT
The military can be used for law enforcement in only specific circumstances under posse commatatus. They don`t want to be involved in law enforcement. And as written, I don`t believe it applies to the USN & USMC, but they comply anyway. Also the supreme court ruled in 1944 that US citizens can`t be tried in military courts as long as the civil state and federal judiciary are functioning. Basically, this is telling the looters the A-Team is coming and if need be, there will be some very quick, cost effective law enforcement.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:21:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CavVet:

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:
(cue the Alex Jones alarmists)





I dont know who Alex Jones is, but I stand vigilant at the foot of liberty.

I hope you never have to thank me for it.





So what would be your solution to the situation in the Gulf area? It's obvious that in Louisiana state and local governments have dropped the ball and the whole area has turned into a massive goatfuck.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:27:58 AM EDT
I guarantee you that the PCA has NOT been suspended. Take a moment and read the statute, posted several times in this thread. There are a number of statutes - as explicitly contemplated in the PCA - which authorize use of the Army for domestic law enforcement under specified circumstances. The PCA criminalizes such deployment under circumstances other than those laid out in enabling statutes.

If you think the PCA is a relic, just ask yourself if the FBI would have been quite so efficient at shooting and burning women and children at Waco if they hadn't had the use of armored vehicles and helicopters from the military, acquired under a statutory exception to the PCA allowing the deployment of such equipment for drug enforcement purposes - an exception the cops lied to invoke. If that exception to the PCA didn't exist, all the FBI's experise in lying wouldn't have gotten them the equipment they needed to roast those children alive. If the PCA is a relic, it's only because of the exceptions to its enforcement.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:28:36 AM EDT
Did MSNBC intrepret this or was a statement issued from the WH?

Heard the NG bagged a Tango in the Convention center last nite.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:28:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 7:35:10 AM EDT by XJ]
You could use the CFR and in print form to repair a good-sized hole in a levee. There is much more to PC than just a short quote. Insurrection Act for starters.

www.northcom.mil/index.cfm?fuseaction=news.factsheets&factsheet=5



ETA Anyone want to bet what the ROE will be, and how many rounds they will carry? I don't care if the first one shot on camera looks like Opie and is raping a baby in the middle of the street at noon - the libs would go apeshit. It's yet another damned by the media if you do, damned if you don't.

Edit 2, pasting the part so people don't have to strain themsleves clicking

The Insurrection Act (Title 10 USC, Sections 331-335). This act allows the president to use U.S. military personnel at the request of a state legislature or governor to suppress insurrections. It also allows the president to use federal troops to enforce federal laws when rebellion against the authority of the U.S. makes it impracticable to enforce the laws of the U.S.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:29:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 7:31:14 AM EDT by CS223]
Seeing how the Zulus are intent on burning NO to the ground, I don't have a problem with the Fed's storming the place.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:30:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KnobCreek:
So, Posse Comitatus Act can be suspended REGIONALLY or by state or city for that matter. OR is saying "in the Gulf Region" simply a crock of crap to appease those of us concerned (DIDN'T SAYA AGAINST) about the military performing law enforcement duties. Just wondering.



No. There are statutes that say, for example (this is not an actual quote), "The provisions of the PCA notwithstanding, the Army may be deployed within the United States for X purpose under Y circumstances."
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:31:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BenDover:
Just heard it on MSNBC. GWB has suspended posse comitatus and is deploying 82nd.

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9186823/


You are wrong, nowhere does the story says that this law has been suspended. I think that would be precedant setting IF he did. During the 1992 Los Angeles Riots, the National Guard was deployed and they complied with the act, the only thing was that the military could not have fully automatic weapons, and one thing that kept the NG from deploying was they need to install the flimsy sheet metal plates to prevent full-auto fire on the M16s. It took the authorities at least one whole before they can deploy the Guard.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:35:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/3/2005 7:36:06 AM EDT by BenDover]

Originally Posted By warlord:

Originally Posted By BenDover:
Just heard it on MSNBC. GWB has suspended posse comitatus and is deploying 82nd.

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9186823/


You are wrong, nowhere does the story says that this law has been suspended. I think that would be precedant setting IF he did. During the 1992 Los Angeles Riots, the National Guard was deployed and they complied with the act, the only thing was that the military could not have fully automatic weapons, and one thing that kept the NG from deploying was they need to install the flimsy sheet metal plates to prevent full-auto fire on the M16s. It took the authorities at least one whole before they can deploy the Guard.



Read later down... I already stated that it was on the air that the talking heads stated posse comitatus was suspended. That's how it got my attention to begin with.

Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:39:22 AM EDT
Any of you bastages gonna mention the Marines are going too?



from your link...


Bush said 4,000 active duty troops are already in the area and 7,000 more will arrive in the next 72 hours from the Army’s 82nd Airborne from Fort Bragg, N.C., and 1st Cavalry Division from Fort Hood, Texas and the Marines’ 1st and 2nd Expeditionary forces from Camp Pendleton, Calif., and Camp Lejeune, N.C.

“The main priority is to restore and maintain law and order and assist in recovery and evacuation efforts,” Bush said of the new deployments.




WOOT!!!!


Semper Fi!
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:41:21 AM EDT
Folks, from what I have read Posse Commitatus (or however its spelt) prevents the state governors from using the military in that manner. Its within the rules of the PC act for the president to deploy regular troops for domestic security.

So the PC act wasn't suspended, one of the "except for" clauses was used.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:45:05 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:47:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By maddog_enigma:
He suspended what?



He suspended the stupid, civil-war era law that says regular-Army can't be deployed for law enforcement duty or civil-disturbances.

Said law was passed in the wake of the civil-war reconstruction (when the Army was sent to keep order in former-rebel territory), but it's still with us now, and normally would forbid sending federal troops to stop looting, or similar...

Federal troops under federal command -> Looters, you ain't in Kansas anymore....




Playing your fiddle while Rome burns are we?
It says you are still in OCS - I hope they instill in you a better respect for the Constitution then thie one you are currently displaying.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 7:48:35 AM EDT
A day late and a dollar short.

Unfortunately the mayor and governors fuck up, is gonna give the left more ammo than theyve ever had against this administration.

I can see it now, thousands dead, and more dying, and its the Gubmints fault.
As long as the media keeps showing more suffering than lawlessness its gonna get bad.
U have the Bush supporters and the left, that wont change.
But the media is gonna sway alot of people in the middle against Bush.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:25:01 AM EDT
First, they wanted federal help and it was all teh evil Bushez fault.

Then, they get the only kind of help teh evil Bushez could offer and it is all his fault.

I’m just waiting for the spin cycle to be over. Sooner or later they are going to realize that 20K people are dead and about a million are homeless and maybe five million are going to have their jobs impacted.

Right now, those are just numbers. In a month or so, the awful reality of that is going to set in and the whole flock of sheep is going to want mommy to make it all go away.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:25:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arbob:
Basically, this is telling the looters the A-Team is coming and if need be, there will be some very quick, cost effective law enforcement.



<Ding Ding Ding> , We have a Winner Johnny. Tell him what he`s won. </Ding>

Its bad that some of the people have done the BS that has took place the past week in N.O.

Although I dont like seeing the military sent in on US soil to control US citizens , I would have to agree 100% its the best move to get things back under control down there right now & restore order. Hey while they are there , they will also be lending more aid and support to those who really need more assistance anyhow. The Armed Forces, Fire & Rescue personel , Leo`s from everywhere volunteering to go there and help , they ALL are doing a great job but the state and feds cant get volunteers checked out, organized and IN PLACE to give the amount of aid and restoring order NOT NEARLY as fast as its needed. the amount of people needed, organized and in place to be effective is just overwhelming in this situation.

The military fits the requirements , they can be in place & effective in NO TIME to help with medical, food , transporting them to better ground , and rounding up the looters and shooters.

Well this is getting longer than I had intended,,,, Soooooooo. I really just had to agree with Sniper2 on how he put it into words what I quoted. I like that and agree.

Either those POS straighten up NOW , or the trial might be quick , cost the government a total of a few cents ( the cost of a single round) & then they will be pretty much straightened out (laying flat, LMAO ) just prior to when the funeral home plants them.
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