OK, I guess these poor souls killed by this moron were shot with a 55gr FMJ. But how do they know it was a 223 REM caliber. Think about it....It could be a 22-250, 220 Swift, or even a 224 Weatherby Magnum. Why does it have to be a 223 REM?

In watching the media hype on MSNBC, the FBI guy stated from the recovered bullets the FBI could narrow down the weapon used. I guess if the bullet didn't totally breakup they might be able to figure the twist of the barrel but beyond that how can you tell a 55gr FMJ fired from a 22-250 bolt action and a 223 REM fired from a AR.

I also noticed they referred to "this man" when they talked about the perp. It could be a women.

Just my thoughts...

Terrorists as a general rule don't use women.

What are the chances of a .223 round being able to do 5 one shot stops?  I thought it was designed to wound not kill?  Obviously the head shots would be one shot stops but not all of the shots were head shots.

At least 2 of the 5 were shot in the head.  The other three were not listed.

Center mass with a .223 is going to involve your major arteries or major vascular damage.  At 100yds center mass w/ the accuarcy of a headshooter, you'd be a dead duck 99% of the time.

Judging by the hole in the window it appears to be ball ammo, as from what I have seen of HP .223 they fragment quite dramatically...there is no mass left to escape.

FWIW, peace be with the victims and their families.

Ed

I believe you have been the victim of an [b]Urban Legend[/b]. The .223 is most certainly meant to kill. It was a round designed for combat, not less-than-lethal situations.

there is also a difference between 5.56 and .223 remington....

It was designed to wound. It takes more soldiers out of the fight.

More of a distinction without a difference.

But the side effect to the wound (especially if it's center mass or head) is usually death.[xx(]

It is indeed a less-than-lethal round. Using the well known harmless stun and subdual principle known in medical circles as "huge ragged bloody hole through heart, spine, skull, or other organs", the 5.56mm round is able to wound without... hey wait a minute. That doesn't make sense.

Wouldn't a huge ragged bloody hole through heart, spine, skull, or other organs kill a person? I think it might.

[rolleyes]

Come on, do you have any evidence to back this up? You're serious going to tell me we outfit a large percentage of our troops with a round design *not* to kill? From what I've seen the bullet leaves pretty big holes in people, leaving their insides a mess. That seems like a killing round to me.

[url]www.sftt.org/feedback_06252002.html[/url]

The .22 LR will kill.

[url]www.defensereview.com/[/url]

Not confusing to me!! Federal, state and local law enforcement know very little or releasing very little about what they know. SO, get a big bucket of slop, throw it on the wall and see what sticks. All before the wonderful mainstream media!!! Fox news, the home of "fair & balanced news" is even in the mantra this time.

Introduction
I am a veteran and I have had considerable experience with the M-16 and M-249 SAW that are both chambered in the 5.56 NATO. I also have considerable experience in the 240G machine gun, which chambers the 7.62 NATO round.

5.56 NATO and 7.62 NATO advantages and drawbacks
The weight of the ammunition is no small matter when soldiers in the field must carry hundreds of rounds. If memory serves, 200 rounds of 5.56NATO weighed 6.25 pounds and a 30 round magazine weighed 1 pound. 100 rounds of link 7.62 NATO weighs 10 pounds. (When you've humped this stuff, you remember what everything weighs.) These things become important when determining your TO&E for a mission.

The big advantage of the 5.56 is its low recoil and lightweight rifle and ammunition. The major drawbacks for the 5.56 are the lack of penetration and poor long-range effectiveness. Some of this was originally addressed with the slower rifling twist of the early AR-15, which marginally stabilized the bullet in flight and often caused the bullet to tumble upon impact, [b]increasing wounding ability.[/b] But as the years went by the rifling twist was increased, making the bullet more stable, more accurate, more lethal at greater range but, paradoxically, less effective as a [b]casualty-producing weapon[/b] since the bullet no longer tumbled on impact, creating less tissue displacement. The M16A2 had rifling twist of 1 in 7" primarily to stabilize the longer tracer rounds, though 1 in 9" twist seems to be sufficient and is what, I believe, the current M4 carbine has. The rifling twist was slowed due to some concerns on increased wear/increased heat/reduced longevity of the 1 in 7" barrels under cyclic fire conditions.

In performance the 7.62 NATO is everything the 5.56 is not. Meaning greater effectiveness and range, but it carries the penalties of greater recoil, increased weapon weight, and greater weight and bulk of ammunition. This reduces the amount of ammunition that can be carried by foot.

The ideal cartridge/weapons system
The ideal cartridge/weapons system would embody the benefits of the M-16 and M249SAW, light recoil and lightweight for both weapon and ammunition. In a perfect world it would be 7.62mm performance in a 5.56mm size cartridge. Speaking of ideals, we could loose the brass case altogether, since it is the single heaviest ammunition component and has never caused a casualty. But this is the 21st Century and I have given some thought to changing the NATO service cartridges within the limitations of current technology.


Wounding is the name of the game.

You think? Try shooting a 5.56mm out of a rifle chambered for .223 remington.

I use .223 hunting ammo to zero my AR-15 chambered in 5.56 for hunting groundhogs in the future.  I also use surplus 5.56.  Your point?

It is the same round.  The chamber dimensions are different, but the rounds are the same.

Pressure may be higher than SAAMI in 5.56mm though.  That is why people generally should avoid 5.56 in .223 chambers.

Urban Legend propigated by those who can't let got of the 7.62.

With all due respect... That is a bunch of SH!T.

[url]http://rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html[/url]
[url]http://www.ammo-oracle.com/[/url]

Time to spend some time on the ammo board.

[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=3&f=16[/url]

Over 1200 posts and still hasn't read the ammo-faq.[V]

The M-193 55gr w/ a 1/12 twist was designed to kill. Varmints. They found out that it did a decent job on humans. All the bouncing around inside stories come to mind. "Bullet went in her left glute then came out the top of her head".
The SS-109 62gr steel core penetrator in a 1/9, 1/8.5, 1/8, 1/7 twist was designed to wound. Go right through with minimal deformation of the projectile. (Do we blame the Dutch or the Belgians for this silliness). The reasoning behind this was supposedly you wound one and 2 have to leave the fight to take him back to an aid station. So in a sense you just took 3 people out of the fight. IMO if somebody gets hit in my AO while I'm takin rounds, your ass gonna sit there and bleed til the threat has been reduced to at least a manageable level.(meaning fucking destroyed)
The 69-80 gr in 1/9, 1/8.5,1/8,1/7 twist is designed to kill MF dead. Period.
At this stage, forensically, the ATF/FBI are talkin out their ass. It could be anything from a .22 Hornet to a .243 for all they fukkin know.
Everybody in MD is going to be ratting their neighbors who own Semi Autos to the TIPS line.
GODAMNIT!
Oh and terrorists do use females. Look at that Baader-Meinhoff bitch at Entebbe, and that other bitch in Mogadishu during the Lufthansa thing. Female terrorists tend to be even more ruthless than their male counter parts because they don't want to seem soft to their male cohorts so they end up over-compensating and become even more sadistic than their male colleagues.
(Edited to remove dumbass mistake) Thanks ARndog

I never said the round would not kill, but the ratio of dead to wounded by the 5.56 is not as great as the 7.62.

Here are both sides of the argument.

[url]www.engarde.com/~mcn/hk/199909/msg00434.html[/url]

[url]www.molonlabe.net/johns/terminal.htm[/url]

M855 and SS109 use the same bullet. Read the ammo-faq people!

[url]http://www.ammo-oracle.com/[/url]

This argument will never end.

Guest Column: Vietnam's Last Big Lie - The .223 Bullet


By Maj. Anthony F. Milavic USMC (Ret.)

In 1964, I watched a Special Forces soldier fire 15 rounds of .223 caliber ammunition into a tethered goat from an AR-15 rifle; moments after the last round hit, the goat fell over. As I looked at the goat lying there, I saw many little bullet entry-holes on one side; and when we turned him over, I saw many little bullet exit-holes on the other side. I saw no other holes or wounds.

During my next two tours of duty in Vietnam, I made similar observations, especially during 1969 as the principal intelligence officer of the 4th Marine Regiment while searching VC/NVA bodies for documents after ground engagements: I saw many little bullet entry- and exit-holes as was the case with the goat.

These observations conflicted with what we in the armed forces were being taught characterized the .223 cartridge's effect on humans: That the unique "tumbling action" of this bullet caused explosive wounds. This claim that the bullet tumbled was nothing more than puffery; and, it "greased the skids" for the acceptance of the full-blown lies on the lethality of the .223 caliber AR-15 and its adoption by the U.S. armed forces as the 5.56mm M-16 service rifle as they entered the Vietnam War.

This term "tumbling" prompts images of the .223 bullet traveling end over end through the human body in 360-degree loops: In reality, it does not. Dr. Martin L. Fackler (Col. USA, Ret.) served as a surgeon in Vietnam during 1968 and, subsequently, pursued the research of terminal ballistics by observing the effects of bullets fired into blocks of ballistic gelatin.

In "Military Rifle Wound Ballistics" he reports that "all" non-deforming pointed bullets "yaw" 180 degrees shortly after penetrating flesh point-first, then exit base-forward. The .223/5.56mm projectile acts in the same manner with a very precise exception. If this round impacts flesh at 2,700 fps or more, it will penetrate point-first, "yaw" to 90-degrees, and then fragment at its weakened serrated band (cannelure) into two or more pieces. These fragments traveling in different directions cause a large internal cavity. The term "tumble" was apparently derived from this "yaw" action and, as suggested by the following, was chosen in lieu of the word "yaw" because it would sell better.

The book, The Black Rifle, M-16 Retrospective by Edward C. Ezell and R. Blake Stevens, " … is, so far as [the authors] could make it so, the truth about the controversial 5.56-mm caliber AR-15 (M16) - What it is, what it is not, where it came from, and why."

The late Dr. Ezell, was the curator/supervisor of the Division of Armed Forces History, National Museum of American History, Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D.C. and the editor of perhaps the world's most famous gun book, Small Arms of the World. The book contains one of the earliest characterizations that the .223 tumbled in a brochure produced by Colt's Patent Fire Arms Manufacturing Company, Inc. The caption written by the book's authors reads, "From the first Colt AR-15 brochure, produced in a desperate attempt to interest somebody - anybody - in the merits of the AR-15's 'unmatched superiority.' " In one of the three internal brochure illustrations is text reading, in part, "On impact the tumbling action of the .223 caliber ammunition increases effectiveness."

In 1961, Colt did get somebody's attention. The Advanced Research Project Agency (ARPA) of the Department of Defense (DoD) was enjoined by the Kennedy administration to explore how the United States could support a foreign ally in a "limited" war. In the spring of 1961, ARPA's Project AGILE was implemented to supply "research and engineering support for the military and paramilitary forces engaged in or threatened by conflict in remote areas of the world."

In October 1961, ARPA provided ten Colt AR-15s to Vietnamese Forces in Saigon to conduct a limited test. The Black Rifle remarks of this test, "The number of rifles might have been small, but the enthusiastic reaction of the Vietnamese and their American advisors alike who handled and fired the AR-15s was just as [Colt's marketing agent] had predicted." Armed with these positive results, ARPA succeeded in expanding the Project AGILE study by procuring 1,000 AR-15s for distribution among select Vietnamese units for field testing. Ezell and Stevens wrote that this approval resulted in " … saving Colt's from almost sure financial disaster and also setting the stage for the most influential yet controversial document so far in the history of the already controversial AR-15."

The purpose of this test, as set forth in the final ARPA report ("Report of Task 13A, Test of ArmaLite Rifle, AR-15," dated 31 July 1962), was " … a comparison between the AR-15 and the M2 carbine to determine which is a more suitable replacement for shoulder weapons in selected units of the Republic of Vietnam Armed Forces (RVNAF)."

The Project AGILE results were summed up, in part, by ARPA back in Washington as follows, "The suitability of the AR-15 as the basic shoulder weapon for the Vietnamese has been established. For the type of conflict now occurring in Vietnam, the weapon was also found by its users and by MAAG advisors to be superior in virtually all respects to the M-1 Rifle, M-1 and M-2 Carbines, Thompson Sub-Machine Gun, and Browning Automatic Rifle." NOTE: This study and its recommendations concerned the suitability of the AR-15 for Vietnamese soldiers, who were described by the testers to be of "small stature, body configuration and light weight," not United States soldiers.

In any case, the report was widely read and some of its components came under serious question, especially those purporting to describe the demonstrated lethality of the .223 caliber cartridge. The following are three such examples from the Project AGILE Project report:

Example 1. "On 16 0900 June, one platoon from the 340 Ranger company was on a ground operation … and contacted 3 armed VC in heavily forested jungle …. At a distance of approximately 15 meters, one Ranger fired an AR-15 full automatic hitting one VC with 3 rounds with the first burst. One round in the head took it completely off. Another in the right arm, took it completely off. One round hit him in the right side, causing a hole about 5 inches in diameter …. " (Rangers)

Example 2. "On 9 June a Ranger Platoon from the 40th Infantry Regt. Was given the mission of ambushing an estimated VC Company ….

Number of VC killed: 5 (Descriptions of the one-round killing wounds follow.)

* Back wound, which caused the thoracic cavity to explode.
* Stomach wound, which caused the abdominal cavity to explode.
* Buttock wound, which destroyed all tissue of both buttocks.
* Chest wound from right to left; destroyed the thoracic cavity.
* Heel wound; the projectile entered the bottom of the right foot causing the leg to split from the foot to the hip.

Continued from above.

These deaths were inflicted by the AR-15 and all were instantaneous except the buttock wound. He lived approximately five minutes. (7th Infantry Division)"

Example 3. "On 13 April, a Special Forces team made a raid on a small village. In the raid, seven VC were killed. Two were killed by AR-15 fire. Range was 50 meters. One man was hit in the head; it looked like it exploded. A second man was hit in the chest, his back was one big hole." (VN Special Forces)

These "field-reports" are incredulous on their face. Yet they were incorporated into the official Project AGILE report to prove that the .223 varmint cartridge was not just for Ground Hogs, Prairie Dogs and Wood Chucks anymore, but was lethal for the biggest game of all - enemy soldiers. Some in DoD maintained their sanity and requested that these results be duplicated scientifically.

The Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory at Edgewood Arsenal attempted to do just that. Using .223 Remington ammunition provided by Colt's representative, they conducted their "standard lethality trials that consisted of measuring the cavitational and other effects of firing at known distances into blocks of ballistic gelatin, and where necessary, anaesthetized goats." They failed to duplicate the explosive effects reported by Project AGILE.

In November 1962, the Army initiated "worldwide" tactical and technical tests of the AR-15 using U.S. soldiers. Edgewood was tasked to perform further lethality testing using modified .223 ammunition. Ezell and Stevens describe the modifications: "They had modified some 55-grain .223 ball bullets of Remington manufacture by cutting approximately 1/4 inch off the nose and drilling a 3/32-inch-diameter hole about 1/4 inch deep into the lead core of each bullet."


The results? The authors continue, "As it turned out, even the hollow-points failed to duplicate anything like the spectacular effects recorded by the Vietnamese unit commanders and their American advisors, which had subsequently been taken as fact and much used as propaganda."

How could so many people be influenced by propaganda to adopt the .223 caliber cartridge? "All this was inspired by the principle - which is quite true in itself - that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper stata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily, and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods," wrote Adolph Hitler in Mein Kampf.

A rifle that entered testing for issuance to Vietnamese soldiers was adopted for United States soldiers. A bullet that was advertised to tumble, but did not, was accepted as the standard cartridge for that rifle. And, Americans were sent into battle with this rifle based on reports that its cartridge would: blow the head off a soldier with one round; blow the arm off a soldier with one round; kill a soldier with a one-round hit in either the stomach, back, chest, buttock or heel of the foot!

From the Ia Drang Valley of Vietnam to the mountains of Afghanistan, our soldiers and Marines only found that enemy soldiers continued to advance firing their weapons after being hit by multiple 5.56-mm. bullets!

It is time the Department of Defense recognizes this last remaining Big Lie from the Vietnam War and in the name of honesty, transformation, or combat effectiveness replaces this varmint cartridge with one that gives our warriors one-round knockdown power on an enemy soldier!

There are a number of effective replacements out there, but permit me to nominate one for consideration. It is one that has been evaluated against the 5.56mm and other NATO and Warsaw Pact rounds by Dr. Fackler in "Military Rifle Wound Ballistics":

"Bullet mass and bullet striking velocity establish a bullet's potential; they set the limit on the tissue disruption it can produce. Bullet shape and construction determine how much of this potential is actually used to disrupt tissue; they are the major determinants of bullet effect. Far and away the most disruptive bullet of those described is the West German 7.62 NATO round. Its fragmenting behavior maximizes utilization of its much higher potential (bullet mass well over twice that of any of the 5.56mm bullets and velocity only about ten percent less than theirs) for tissue disruption."

Semper one-round knockdown power.

There are ways to determine the rounds were a .223 caliber bullet, but without a case it would be almost impossible to determine it was a .223 Remington, let alone fired from an "assault rifle". Actually it's .224" in diameter.

Some rounds fragment.

Some don't.

I was under the impression that all military ammo used by those nations who agreed to the Hague Convention, or Geneva Convention, would not fragment and would be ball type ammo.

What AR10r posted as to the small exit holes generated by the 55 gr FMJ is consistent with what I observed on wounded Vietnamese VC and NVA

All high velocity spinning bullets will "tumble" when entering a gelatinous form like a human body. To say that the bullet was advertised to do that is incorrect. The effectiveness of the bullet is a combination of the weight of the bullet, the speed of the bullet when it meets the target and the profile of the bullet. What made the M193 effective was the fact that at 2700+ fps the bullet can break at the cannelure and cause multiple wound channels.



We need a round that will kill and ememy solder with a near miss. [;D]
Although, I don't recall reviewing any Colt, Armalite or Army literature that said that the M16's round was fatal when shot in the foot...

As to blowing the head off an enemy solder, that report is part of the official report on the initial efficiency of the cartridge. Does it happen all the time? No. Can I dispute that it did happen? No.

Oh, BTW, the 5.56 was created to meet the Army's criteria of penetrating a helmet at 600yards, not created to wound.

Again, spend some time reading the ammo FAQ. [url]www.ammo-oracle.com[/url]

Another "anectdote" for ya Forest--

SAS troops in the Gulf War reported having to shoot someone an average of 8-9 times to ensure that they went down.  You have to consider how the adrenaline of combat affects your aim as well as the enemy's physiological reaction to being shot.  We heard the same stories from Somalia--a guy got shot, didn't go down.  Got shot again, didn't go down, got shot again, crawled away, still alive.  

The plus side of the .223 is you can carry more ammo and hence fire more shots.  The minus side is that each shot is less effective.  I think I will side with Dirty Harry on this one--bigger bullet, less ammo, more well-placed rounds.  After shooting a FAL so often, the AR just seems like an inferior toy to me.

I would say that problem is a bullet that is too heavy being fired from a barrel that is too short at a range that is too great to have the required 2700 fps to reliably fragment.

62gr from a 14" barrel at 100 yards = 2500fps
55gr from a 20" barrel at 100 yards = 3000fps

Solution: use the 20" barrel M16 or use a "speciality" ammo in the M4 like the 77gr BH or 75gr TAP.

The 62gr bullet is a compromise that doesn't solve either the problem. Dump the M249 and go back to the M60E3 for the heavy weapon in the squad. Then you have 5 M16s and 1 M60E3.

My original post was:

OK, I guess these poor souls killed by this moron were shot with a 55gr FMJ. But how do they know it was a 223 REM caliber. Think about it....It could be a 22-250, 220 Swift, or even a 224 Weatherby Magnum. Why does it have to be a 223 REM?

In watching the media hype on MSNBC, the FBI guy stated from the recovered bullets the FBI could narrow down the weapon used. I guess if the bullet didn't totally breakup they might be able to figure the twist of the barrel but beyond that how can you tell a 55gr FMJ fired from a 22-250 bolt action and a 223 REM fired from a AR.

I also noticed they referred to "this man" when they talked about the perp. It could be a women.

Just my thoughts...


It seems that this topic was taken over by the "I know this/I know that" crowd.

1. The police found a bullet.
2. The bullet was a .224 FMJ.
3. This bullet killed a person with a single shot.

Now SHUT UP.

The reason for this post was to point out a true lack of responsible reporting/speculation by both the FBI and the news media. This was not a forum to air the age old topic of the wounding/lethality of a AR15.

Just some more of my thoughts.....

Sorry for hijacking your thread pcgod, I was just trying to clear up a myth that gets thrown around quite often.

Just out of curiousity, are any other .224" derived cartridges commonly shot out of fast twist barrels. Like 1/7, 1/7.7, 1/8, 1/9, etc? Maybe they could link it to that? Maybe the can determine the exact powder used? Trace it to a commercial load? These are all just guesses, but who really knows what the FBI has up their sleeves. And it could just be BS... wouldn't be the first time.

pcgod,

They don't know. We don't know. It's all speculation at this point.

If this thread hadn't diverged, it would be on page 4 now and no one would be talking about it.

What they probably know:
1. Bullet was .224
2. Most .224 bullets are .223 Remington.
3. Most .223 Remington is fired from ARs.
4. ARs get a lot of TV coverage because they are EBRs and the general population can't tell them apart from the M16.

Therefore: Let's get on TV by showing all these EBRs to the press.

Nevermind the fact that there were no casings found at any of the scenes, and only one round was fired at each scene even when there was a miss (i.e. the bullet through "Michaels" window). Nevermind that would inicate a bolt action rife.

What ever gave you that idea?  Most of the membership of the European terr groups in the '70s were upper middle class college educated women.  Think Hillary with an Uzi and a car bomb.