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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 10/10/2007 6:52:20 PM EST
im really wondering if getting the mcse or mcsa cert would be worth the money and time involved. would having it on my resume garner any extra attention?
ive never really been big on microsoft but if i can get a few grand a year more because i have extra letters on my resume i might be interested. im sure i could benefit from the extra knowledge too but extra knowledge doesnt necessarily put more money in the bank.
any and all (serious) input is apreciated.

btw also posted in Urban Commandos
Link Posted: 10/10/2007 8:21:38 PM EST
In a word... no. Microsoft alphabet soup won't help you to get a job... there are too many schools cranking MCSEs out. You really need the experience to go with those certs for them to be worth anything.

It's been a while since I've done any hiring or interviewing, but I always looked askance at resumes with the MS stuff... my first impression was "OK, here's someone who knows the 'Microsoft way'... how difficult will it be to train them to do things the right way?"
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 6:18:31 PM EST
i have some experience to go along with it, but most of my experience is on *nix servers not MS. i am considering the cert to get a little more MS knowledge to kind of help round out my resume. are there any certs that are truly useful or actually get a bit of attention from a hiring manager?
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 6:32:38 PM EST
HR dept's DO pay attention to certifications, they can be used as bargaining chips to get better pay, and are used to prove that you do know the material you claim.

I disagree with the notion that most people that are getting MCSE's nowadays are just being "churned out"...maybe back in the days of NT 4 MCSE's, but I've taken the 2003 tests and they're hard. You have to know a significant amount to pass them. M$ learned their lesson on the first go round.
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 6:38:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By ndolson:
HR dept's DO pay attention to certifications, they can be used as bargaining chips to get better pay, and are used to prove that you do know the material you claim.


+1 HR depts will pay attention. HR depts who look at IT resumes will look for KEY words and any relevant Microsoft Certification will get your resume moved to the next pile that gets distributed to the people who actually do the hiring. Thats what you are using for to accomplish. It won't help you any further than that.



I disagree with the notion that most people that are getting MCSE's nowadays are just being "churned out"...maybe back in the days of NT 4 MCSE's, but I've taken the 2003 tests and they're hard. You have to know a significant amount to pass them. M$ learned their lesson on the first go round.


Na, anyone can get an certification nowadays. There are all kinds of brain dumps on the net that will give you the exact questions and answers to the tests. If you can memorize, you can pass these things easy.

FTR, I have a MCSD. It helped open a few doors for me, but I had to walk through them and dodge all the obstucles.
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 6:45:32 PM EST
so the general consensus is: its great for getting past HR but the people doing the hiring arent really that concerned with it?
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 6:46:20 PM EST
I have a 10yrs xp in lan admin from the Navy. So I have quite a bit of experience, however I don't have any certs. Just Navy school. It has really hindered me from finding a job in the field, because all the HR dorks look for is MCSE or other certs. No doors opened basically.

From my perspective, yes take the tests and get the certs even if they "get cranked out".
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 6:47:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2007 6:55:16 PM EST by gaspain]
double tap...
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 6:52:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2007 6:55:52 PM EST by rdove]

Originally Posted By atrum_tutela:
so the general consensus is: its great for getting past HR but the people doing the hiring arent really that concerned with it?


I'd say you're right one the money with that assumption. The people doing the hiring won't be impressed and will actually test your knowledge in a technical interview to see if you know anything.

ETA: Like the person above said, most HRs will screen for this type of stuff. Getting past HR is really the hardest part if you fit the skill level they are looking for.
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 6:54:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2007 9:55:21 PM EST by gaspain]
damn tripple tap. Coffee shop has shitty internet.
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 6:57:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By gaspain:
I have a 10yrs xp in lan admin from the Navy. So I have quite a bit of experience, however I don't have any certs. Just Navy school. It has really hindered me from finding a job in the field, because all the HR dorks look for is MCSE or other certs. No doors opened basically.

From my perspective, yes take the tests and get the certs even if they "get cranked out".


Post again, so I can be sure i read it.
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 6:58:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2007 7:00:02 PM EST by Storm6436]

Originally Posted By gaspain:
I have a 10yrs xp in lan admin from the Navy. So I have quite a bit of experience, however I don't have any certs. Just Navy school. It has really hindered me from finding a job in the field, because all the HR dorks look for is MCSE or other certs. No doors opened basically.

From my perspective, yes take the tests and get the certs even if they "get cranked out".


My experience with the Navy was quite the opposite... as an ET with 5 years of IT experience, I had no problems finding a job when I separated... of course, I think the lines "This job brought to you by the letters S, C, and I" could be said as well. *shrug*

IMO, Microsoft certs are a load of shit, and any shop trying to hire clueful people that has the netadmins actually doing the hiring... well, the MC-whatever will be noted, but if you don't have much anything else they might actually work against you. Seen way to many paper MCSEs who couldn't troubleshoot themselves out of a wet paper bag, much less figure out complicated things.
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 7:04:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By Storm6436:
IMO, Microsoft certs are a load of shit, and any shop trying to hire clueful people that has the netadmins actually doing the hiring... well, the MC-whatever will be noted, but if you don't have much anything else they might actually work against you. Seen way to many paper MCSEs who couldn't troubleshoot themselves out of a wet paper bag, much less figure out complicated things.


We had a guy we gave a programming interview once who had his MCAD and proceeded to ask us how to create a new project in Visual Studio. We asked if he was serious, he said yes, and we said intrview over nice talking with you...
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 7:10:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By rdove:

Originally Posted By Storm6436:
IMO, Microsoft certs are a load of shit, and any shop trying to hire clueful people that has the netadmins actually doing the hiring... well, the MC-whatever will be noted, but if you don't have much anything else they might actually work against you. Seen way to many paper MCSEs who couldn't troubleshoot themselves out of a wet paper bag, much less figure out complicated things.


We had a guy we gave a programming interview once who had his MCAD and proceeded to ask us how to create a new project in Visual Studio. We asked if he was serious, he said yes, and we said intrview over nice talking with you...


+87

Case in point-- If you're gonna have the alphabet soup, know your shit. If you don't know your shit, you're fucked. If you know you're shit, you're good.

Well, if the interview is given by the clueful, then it's likely not a problem as geeks can sense their own... but beware, it'll be really hard to hide your weak spots...
if the interview is given by nothing but HR guys... well, you're fucked if you don't have the alphabet soup on your "Love-me" wall because these asshats wouldn't know skill if it droped outta the sky and entered the Contra cheat code while impregnating their skull... but on the plus side, if you're a little bit clueful with those MC-whatevers ... well, have fun dancing circles around the monkey
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 7:23:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By Storm6436:


these asshats wouldn't know skill if it droped outta the sky and entered the Contra cheat code while impregnating their skull...




so i guess next is.. are the classes (online or other) worth the hassle or should i just get a book and set up a test box?
im leaning more toward a couple books and a test box but... hell.. i dont know..
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 7:25:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By atrum_tutela:

Originally Posted By Storm6436:


these asshats wouldn't know skill if it droped outta the sky and entered the Contra cheat code while impregnating their skull...




so i guess next is.. are the classes (online or other) worth the hassle or should i just get a book and set up a test box?
im leaning more toward a couple books and a test box but... hell.. i dont know..


If you're already very tech-savvy, just go for the books and test box, then pay to take the test at some testing center when you're ready.
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 7:27:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2007 7:29:51 PM EST by FireControlman]

Originally Posted By atrum_tutela:

Originally Posted By Storm6436:


these asshats wouldn't know skill if it droped outta the sky and entered the Contra cheat code while impregnating their skull...




so i guess next is.. are the classes (online or other) worth the hassle or should i just get a book and set up a test box?
im leaning more toward a couple books and a test box but... hell.. i dont know..



Yeah really, say my little bro-in-law wants to get into this field, what would you guys recommend as the path to get there, schools and certs or what not? He's a good kid, thin and bright, however he has no direction (deadbeat dad). I'm thinking of setting him up for the Coast Guard or Navy, but if he went the civilian route, what do you recommend?
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 7:30:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By kitwulfen:

If you're already very tech-savvy, just go for the books and test box, then pay to take the test at some testing center when you're ready.


tech savvy, as in I've been doing this for a few years tech savvy, mind you. If you don't have significant hands on experience, your only real way to pass is the brain dumps/cheat sheets/etc and your resume will reflect that...and the hole you will have dug yourself into will be fairly deep when you get out in the real world and find out that those brain dumps don't work real well for that "on the fly, outside the box, this wasn't on the test" thinking.
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 7:51:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By ndolson:

Originally Posted By kitwulfen:

If you're already very tech-savvy, just go for the books and test box, then pay to take the test at some testing center when you're ready.


tech savvy, as in I've been doing this for a few years tech savvy, mind you. If you don't have significant hands on experience, your only real way to pass is the brain dumps/cheat sheets/etc and your resume will reflect that...and the hole you will have dug yourself into will be fairly deep when you get out in the real world and find out that those brain dumps don't work real well for that "on the fly, outside the box, this wasn't on the test" thinking.


i have a few years of experience, but it is mostly on SCO Unix and Red Hat servers. i havent really done much with microsoft. i dont think i would have much of a problem working in a MS environment, i just think i will have a hard time getting on with a predominantly MS company without a cert.
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 7:53:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By FireControlman:

Originally Posted By atrum_tutela:

Originally Posted By Storm6436:


these asshats wouldn't know skill if it droped outta the sky and entered the Contra cheat code while impregnating their skull...




so i guess next is.. are the classes (online or other) worth the hassle or should i just get a book and set up a test box?
im leaning more toward a couple books and a test box but... hell.. i dont know..



Yeah really, say my little bro-in-law wants to get into this field, what would you guys recommend as the path to get there, schools and certs or what not? He's a good kid, thin and bright, however he has no direction (deadbeat dad). I'm thinking of setting him up for the Coast Guard or Navy, but if he went the civilian route, what do you recommend?


i went to college and i recommend it. hell let the coast guard or navy pay for it. but in my opinion college is the first step to most any professional career.
Link Posted: 10/11/2007 7:56:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By atrum_tutela:

i have a few years of experience, but it is mostly on SCO Unix and Red Hat servers. i havent really done much with microsoft. i dont think i would have much of a problem working in a MS environment, i just think i will have a hard time getting on with a predominantly MS company without a cert.


While the majority of the tests are microsoft specific, a large part of it deals with foundational concepts such as TCP/IP addressing, network infrastructure type stuff, routing protocols, etc. As long as you know that, you've already got a head start. If you haven't had much or any experience with active directory, get a book and if at all possible a test lab and run through the excercises...I'm a kinesthetic learner and retain best by doing, so it always worked well for me.
Link Posted: 10/12/2007 11:34:51 AM EST
We have a few MCSEs for W2K and 2K3 in our shop. Boot campers. They know nothing and it shows. I have little faith in them showing that just because you have the cert you know your stuff.
Link Posted: 10/12/2007 11:38:46 AM EST
Experience, Experience, Experience.

Certs MAY get you in the door. MAY.
Link Posted: 10/12/2007 11:45:40 AM EST
Experience is the key. I am an MCSE x3 so I know what it takes to pass those stupid tests. I also have 12 years of experience as an admin and that is what matters. I will give a little more considersation to someone who has a cert but does not put down any schooling, IE self taught. That will at least move that resume to the maybe pile. If I see NIT/New Horizons/some other boot camp the resume gets dumped. When I interview people here I give them a case study.

No shit, I hand them a piece of paper that has a real network that I was called in to fix. Depending on what questions they ask and how they handle themselves determines if I offer them a job.

The certs look nice hanging on my wall, but they have never built a server for me.
Link Posted: 10/12/2007 11:48:51 AM EST
They are becoming a requirement at my office.
No new hires without them and all of us are required to get them.
Link Posted: 10/12/2007 11:50:56 AM EST
A majority of the people with the MCSE (Must Consult Someone Experienced) cert are complete Morons. That said just about any training and CERT is worth the time.
Link Posted: 10/12/2007 11:57:18 AM EST
We had an MCSE working for us and he couldn't fix a damn thing. He lacked basic trouble shooting skills. I have no certifications, I was tossed into it. After doing my time in the trenches, I have learned a lot. I learned a lot the hard way.

I am not against getting certifications, I just don't have the time (or money).

We also had a kid fresh from an IT school who showed great potential. His problem was he wanted quick fixes and easy money. When he found out it wasn't all about loading XP clean over and over, he crossed a line and I fired his ass.
Link Posted: 10/12/2007 12:01:25 PM EST
WOMBAT
Link Posted: 10/12/2007 12:05:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2007 12:10:38 PM EST by motown_steve]
I've been IT for 10 years, and I have a binder full of certifications. I've earned about 10 different certs over the course of my career. They have never helped me get a job or negotiate a single penny out of an employer. My experience has been that the hiring manager already knows exactly what he is going to pay whoever he hires. The only time certs have been of any use is when I've worked for VARs/Solution Providers who need to have you certified to keep their reseller status.

Having an MCSE and several years worth of UNIX experience is like having 20 gauge shells and a 12 gauge shotgun. Go get you a Red Hat or SuSE Linux certification if you feel like you HAVE to be certified.

Certs that I've had at one time or another:

MCP - Windows NT Server
ADSM Certified Implementation Specialist
Exabyte Certified Systems Engineer (that one was really worth the time and effort to get )
IBM Certified SAN Specialist
Legatto Networker Certified System Administrator (another real useful one )
EMC Certified Administrator - DR Specialist
AIX Certified System Administrator
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