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Posted: 3/27/2009 6:54:51 PM EDT
OK-this website isn't very user friendly-go here and look for "Krupp-eine Deutsche Familie (3)" and watch from the 19:45 mark to 20:30 mark.

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/content/9602?inPopup=true

Maybe somebody with more Internet skills can extract this and post it to YouTube.

Link Posted: 3/27/2009 6:59:39 PM EDT
Well duh, we won the war.

Link Posted: 3/27/2009 7:50:54 PM EDT
Kar98's are fine, well made rifles. But they are bolt action, and could not compete with a semi automatic. No suprise there.

Link Posted: 3/27/2009 7:56:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 7:58:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Even in terms of bolt action rifles, the Kar 98 is trumped by the Enfield No.1 Mk III*


Which is trumped by the No.4 MkI.

Link Posted: 3/27/2009 7:59:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2009 7:59:23 PM EDT by DK-Prof]
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 8:10:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By TearsInRain:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Even in terms of bolt action rifles, the Kar 98 is trumped by the Enfield No.1 Mk III*


Which is trumped by the No.4 MkI.



Absolutely, buy I wanted to be "fair" to the Jerry rifle by naming a reasonably close contemporary rifle.


The No.4 WOULD be the contemporary of the KAR 98. Read some Wiki..

Link Posted: 3/27/2009 8:19:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 8:40:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2009 8:56:08 PM EDT by TearsInRain]
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By TearsInRain:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By TearsInRain:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Even in terms of bolt action rifles, the Kar 98 is trumped by the Enfield No.1 Mk III*


Which is trumped by the No.4 MkI.



Absolutely, buy I wanted to be "fair" to the Jerry rifle by naming a reasonably close contemporary rifle.


The No.4 WOULD be the contemporary of the KAR 98. Read some Wiki..



I know they overlapped for a few years at the end of WW2 (the No.4 was introduced in 1941, I think).

I meant "contemporary" in the sense of being developed around the same time - the traditional No. 1 Mk III was adopted before WW1 (just like the kar 98) - with the modification to the No.1 Mk III* early in WW1.

So the Kar 98 and the No 1 Mk III were "contemporary" for over 30 years, whereas the No. 4 was only "contemporary" with the Kar 98 for about 3 year.


So while technically you are correct, I believe that I am MORE correct ( - but I acknowledge your point)


Of course you're correct, you're the mod..



ETA: Reread your post, you still missed my point.

The Kar98 was adopted in 1935, and is thus the contemporary of the No.4

The Gewehr 98 is the contemporary of the No.I

I was focusing on the German rifle, not the English, though I love it so..

Link Posted: 3/27/2009 8:59:08 PM EDT
Lulzz
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 10:04:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TearsInRain:
Well duh, we won the war.



Individual riflery had very little to do with who won the war. The logistics that the USA was capable of won the war.

By capable I mean supplying us, the UK and the USSR and all the other allies with the materiel they needed to crush the Axis' war effort.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 10:16:53 PM EDT
yep..the Kar 98k was adopted in 1935......

it was simple and reliable......but highly over rated........
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 10:42:42 PM EDT
All bolt actions of WWI and II were all pretty much equal in terms of performance and accuracy.
Ok, Ok, maybe the carcano was a POS. but thats about it.
Can you really say the Enfield was superior to the Mosin Nagant?
It held 10 rounds, the mosin held 5, Whoop dee do!
It not like that means a british tommy can carry twice as much ammo.
And comparing the garand to the KAR98 is like comparing a Thompson to a flame thrower.
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:21:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2009 11:23:00 PM EDT by Magurgle]
Originally Posted By Fender57:
All bolt actions of WWI and II were all pretty much equal in terms of performance and accuracy.
Ok, Ok, maybe the carcano was a POS. but thats about it.
Can you really say the Enfield was superior to the Mosin Nagant?
It held 10 rounds, the mosin held 5, Whoop dee do!
It not like that means a british tommy can carry twice as much ammo.
And comparing the garand to the KAR98 is like comparing a Thompson to a flame thrower.


While the mosin is a good rifle, for how simple it is the Enfield is a much better gun. The action is VERY strong and can handle just about anything you can fit in the mag. I have a friend that made a .300 H&H out of one.


ETA the enfield is really fast to operate also second to the K31, maybe
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:26:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Fender57:
All bolt actions of WWI and II were all pretty much equal in terms of performance and accuracy.
Ok, Ok, maybe the carcano was a POS. but thats about it.
Can you really say the Enfield was superior to the Mosin Nagant?
It held 10 rounds, the mosin held 5, Whoop dee do!
It not like that means a british tommy can carry twice as much ammo.
And comparing the garand to the KAR98 is like comparing a Thompson to a flame thrower.


uhh.. yeah. Ever work the action on a mosin?
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:36:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2009 11:40:24 PM EDT by Gunwritr]
Originally Posted By Fender57:
All bolt actions of WWI and II were all pretty much equal in terms of performance and accuracy.
Ok, Ok, maybe the carcano was a POS. but thats about it.
Can you really say the Enfield was superior to the Mosin Nagant?
It held 10 rounds, the mosin held 5, Whoop dee do!
It not like that means a british tommy can carry twice as much ammo.
And comparing the garand to the KAR98 is like comparing a Thompson to a flame thrower.


fail................

the Lee Enfield was in a class by itself.....
why? Rate of fire chiefly.......
but the No.4 also had vastly superior sights compared to almost everything else
then there is reliability....

lets consider these......
rate of fire, due to the shorter bolt throw, less bolt rotation required to open/close
and cock on closing action the Lee Enfield, in properly trained hands, has a significantly
higher rate of fire. Combined with double the mag capacity of the Mosin or Mauser, it provided
a very real advantage in actual combat. This is borne out by after action combat reports from
both the British and Germans.

reliability, the rear locking Enfield action proved much more tolerant of mud in the trenches than
the front locking designs. Often you were pumping mud into the action every time you stuffed
a fresh stripper clip into the weapon. Then, when you closed the bolt it was pushed foward
and could accumulate in the locking recesses, eventually jamming the weapon.

Sights, the No. 1 Mk III* is on a par with most designs, and better than quite a few. The No. 4 series
is noticeably better, equipped with both a ghost ring sight useful in lowlight and a smaller aperture
for extended distances.

Lets compare it to the said Mosin-Nagant Model 1891/30, which is a good piece.
The Enfield is shorter and handier. Complaints from the field by Red Army troops in this regard
eventually led to the M1891/30 being replaced. Reports stated it was too long for use in trenches,
buildings and heavy woods. The Enfield has a much easier to manipulate safety. In this regard there
is no comparison. The Mosin's bolt handle is placed too far forward making rapid bolt manipulation very
difficult from the prone position. The Mosin action is noticeably slower than the Enfield to operate.
On many Mosin's you have to slap the bolt just to get it to open, especially when firing prone. The Enfield
No. 4 has better sights, especially for use in low light conditions. The Enfield is also more robust. The thin
stocks/handguards of a Mosin did not stand up as well under hard use.

In addition you can change the length of pull on an Enfield by swapping out different length buttstocks.
This is a handy feature. Head space could also be adjusted by swapping out bolt heads.

One of the better bolt action military rifles was actually the French MAS 36. It was very short and handy,
has a quick bolt throw, good sights and is very rugged.

The Carcano is actually a much better rifle than many people realize. Some of them were very well made.
The action is very quick to reload, recoil is mild allowing a quick follow up shot.

regarding the rate of fire issue, just as an example since you threw the Mosin out there
I can fire 11 rounds from a No. 4 in 9 seconds and make all hits at 100 yards on a man sized target.
It takes me about 30 seconds to do the same with a good M1891/30 with the reload
Link Posted: 3/27/2009 11:38:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ChuckBronson:
Originally Posted By Fender57:
All bolt actions of WWI and II were all pretty much equal in terms of performance and accuracy.
Ok, Ok, maybe the carcano was a POS. but thats about it.
Can you really say the Enfield was superior to the Mosin Nagant?
It held 10 rounds, the mosin held 5, Whoop dee do!
It not like that means a british tommy can carry twice as much ammo.
And comparing the garand to the KAR98 is like comparing a Thompson to a flame thrower.


uhh.. yeah. Ever work the action on a mosin?

Shit, even I would rather take an Enfield into battle over a Mosin. I can fire my Enfield faster than even my smoothest working Mosin. And you get twice as many shots without reloading.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 5:12:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By weptek911:
Originally Posted By TearsInRain:
Well duh, we won the war.



Individual riflery had very little to do with who won the war. The logistics that the USA was capable of won the war.

By capable I mean supplying us, the UK and the USSR and all the other allies with the materiel they needed to crush the Axis' war effort.


Link Posted: 3/28/2009 5:14:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:09:05 AM EDT
No.4 Lee-Enfield mag dump.

Try that with any turnbolt besides a Lee-Enfield.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:15:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_Markowitz:
No.4 Lee-Enfield mag dump.

Try that with any turnbolt besides a Lee-Enfield.


he could be faster .....

IMHO,, mosin,98, enfield are all good rifles.
they all have their down falls. And they can be shot very fast if the shooter knows his shit..evenwith a mauser or mosin.. the enfield has the 10 rnd advantage on reloads..

Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:22:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By protus:
Originally Posted By Dave_Markowitz:
No.4 Lee-Enfield mag dump.

Try that with any turnbolt besides a Lee-Enfield.


he could be faster .....

IMHO,, mosin,98, enfield are all good rifles.
they all have their down falls. And they can be shot very fast if the shooter knows his shit..evenwith a mauser or mosin.. the enfield has the 10 rnd advantage on reloads..


So....

What is the downfall of the Enfield, over the Mosin or Kar98?

It isn't weight, ammunition capacity, length, rate-of-fire. And with the No.4's peep sights, there is no way in hell it loses on accuracy, so what is there left?
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:29:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2009 6:30:13 AM EDT by 50cal]
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:34:21 AM EDT
..... I found a guy learning German, and a kid fixing his bicycle....

I think I got the wrong movie.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:36:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ChuckBronson:
Originally Posted By Fender57:
All bolt actions of WWI and II were all pretty much equal in terms of performance and accuracy.
Ok, Ok, maybe the carcano was a POS. but thats about it.
Can you really say the Enfield was superior to the Mosin Nagant?
It held 10 rounds, the mosin held 5, Whoop dee do!
It not like that means a british tommy can carry twice as much ammo.
And comparing the garand to the KAR98 is like comparing a Thompson to a flame thrower.


uhh.. yeah. Ever work the action on a mosin?

.... The Enfield is a much higher quality rifle, than the Mosin-Nagant.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:36:42 AM EDT
the M1 is a very fine rifle.
My CMP Garand.




If hitler wasn't such a dumbshit more of these would have been used against us......











Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:50:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 7:11:19 AM EDT
Good ideas, but too little too late. Nice try Nazis
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 12:47:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By lamarbrog:
..... I found a guy learning German, and a kid fixing his bicycle....

I think I got the wrong movie.


Yup-it's a three part series about the German Krupp family, and the scene from part 3 of 3 has one of the Krupp sons sneaking up on a U.S. MG position (3 GIs) in a bombed out building with his straight bolt Kar98-he "slices the pie" halfway decently, while trying to get a bead on the GIs, steps on a piece of glass, and one of the GIs pops him in the head with a Garand snap shot and then says "Fuck You!"

If I had better Internet skills, it'd make an awesome .gif.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 12:54:25 PM EDT
What, apart from 5 extra rounds is the big advantage of an enfield over a mauser?
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 12:58:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jarlragnar:
What, apart from 5 extra rounds is the big advantage of an enfield over a mauser?


the action is quite different.


Link Posted: 3/28/2009 12:59:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Derek45:
Originally Posted By jarlragnar:
What, apart from 5 extra rounds is the big advantage of an enfield over a mauser?


the action is quite different.




what do most people like about it?
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 1:04:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jarlragnar:
Originally Posted By Derek45:
Originally Posted By jarlragnar:
What, apart from 5 extra rounds is the big advantage of an enfield over a mauser?


the action is quite different.




what do most people like about it?


It's as smooth as silk.
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