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Posted: 8/12/2017 11:15:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/12/2017 11:24:37 PM EST by xeeoneyx]
I purchased 50 4" x 4" x 6' boards from Lowes. They are the uprights to a large platform that I am building. I am halfway through construction and I realized that they are not actually 6' long. They are all different lengths and range from half an inch to an entire inch too short. If these were getting buried I wouldn't care but these are standing on a flat concrete floor and the difference in heights is a huge problem.

I understand that lumber sizing is deceptive but the website lists the "actual" dimensions as 3.5" x 3.5" x 6'. Are they in the wrong here or am I?

ETA: My 12' boards are all actually a half inch too long. So, I have to trim every single 12' board to length now as well.
Link Posted: 8/12/2017 11:20:13 PM EST
They were that size before they were dried out basically. A 2x2x8 isn't really that. More like 1.75x1.75x7.5 or so. Thus you learned that they fuck you on the board size.
Link Posted: 8/12/2017 11:23:36 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Yarael:
They were that size before they were dried out basically. A 2x2x8 isn't really that. More like 1.75x1.75x7.5 or so. Thus you learned that they fuck you on the board size.
View Quote
Hell no. They are soaking wet - dark green. Does the mean they are going to shrink even more?
Link Posted: 8/12/2017 11:24:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/12/2017 11:26:13 PM EST by Andr0id]
You can't really expect pre cut lumber bundles to all be the exact same length ( I would expect them to be >= to the advertised specs though)

If you needed them exactly 6' 0", you should have measured each one before you used them.

Since you've already used some of them, you can either cut them all down to 5'11" or figure out how to shim them (or some combination of the two depending on how hard it is to take what you have apart.)
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 4:54:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/13/2017 5:11:57 AM EST by midmo]
Most lumber comes just a touch over-length, which is fine because you can trim it yourself to the exact length you need instead of the mill trying to guesstimate shrinkage. I don't recall having any actually come up short of the length dimension, though. You might consider just running a band of 2x6's around the top perimeter and fastening the platform to that instead of directly to the posts; that'd give you some wiggle room at each corner to adjust the band up or down for a completely level plane at exactly the height you want it.

ETA: like this:

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 5:35:48 AM EST
This is your solution. It's how I would have done it in the first place.

Link Posted: 8/13/2017 6:13:14 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By xeeoneyx:
Hell no. They are soaking wet - dark green. Does the mean they are going to shrink even more?
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Originally Posted By xeeoneyx:
Originally Posted By Yarael:
They were that size before they were dried out basically. A 2x2x8 isn't really that. More like 1.75x1.75x7.5 or so. Thus you learned that they fuck you on the board size.
Hell no. They are soaking wet - dark green. Does the mean they are going to shrink even more?
Yep and it will probably shrink quite a bit
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 6:49:48 AM EST
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Originally Posted By decoy007:


Yep and it will probably shrink quite a bit
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At least 1/2" more in all dimensions
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 7:31:16 AM EST
Usually only wall studs are exact length.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 7:36:36 AM EST
An 8 footer should be 8'1/4" or 8'1/2" etc. They are supposed to have enough to be trimmed to size.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 7:42:45 AM EST
You should definitely call a lawyer OP.


:-/
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 7:50:38 AM EST
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Originally Posted By xeeoneyx:


Hell no. They are soaking wet - dark green. Does the mean they are going to shrink even more?
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when the dry out they also warp, wave and split
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 8:09:33 AM EST
In this thread we see a prime example of why you don't buy dimensional lumber from a big box store.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 8:27:12 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By -Kyuss-:
In this thread we see a prime example of why you don't buy dimensional lumber from a big box store.
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Bingo. 
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 8:35:27 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By -Kyuss-:
In this thread we see a prime example of why you don't buy dimensional lumber from a big box store.
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At least MEASURE all of them before you do.


_
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 8:50:12 AM EST
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Originally Posted By doc_Zox:
when the dry out they also warp, wave and split
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Especially if you happen to leave them out in the sun while they're drying off. I've had treated lumber come out looking like some kind of modern art sculpture.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 9:26:24 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Yarael:
They were that size before they were dried out basically. A 2x2x8 isn't really that. More like 1.75x1.75x7.5 or so. Thus you learned that they fuck you on the board size.
View Quote
Dimensional lumber is sold by the "rough cut" size - The size before it is planed to that nice, smooth finish that you are used to. Rough cut is what you typically see in pallets.

You can still buy rough cut from a saw mill and it will come cut to size. (They may subtract the saw kerf, I don't actually remember.) A buddy of mine had a bunch of hardwood sawn up and he ricked it in his barn. Several years ago, after it was dry, he hired my son (then 16-17) to help him sand it smooth and finish it so he could use it for porch columns and a roof. Poor kid was filthy for weeks. Said buddy bought a planer and jointer after the job was done.

Last winter some shyster law firm sued a couple of the big box stores for advertising dimensional lumber without detailing the actual dimensions. It was a bunch of crap, but all the websites make a careful distinction between dimensional and true now.

Send a load of 2x4's that actually measure 2" x 4" to a jobsite and you will hear wailing like nobodies business.

Length varies a little long because it is hard to cut the length perfectly in the mill. None should be short. If they could cut them perfectly they would - they don't want to give you that extra for free.

OP is in a little over his head on this project. If he keeps trying he will learn.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 11:20:02 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Lost-Drive-In:

None should be short.
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This is pretty much the consensus that I am getting. The manager at Lowes discounted a saw for me so that I can at least cut all of them to the same length. Then I can shim all the bottoms later.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 12:14:24 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Lost-Drive-In:

OP is in a little over his head on this project. If he keeps trying he will learn.
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Fun fact: I can mess up, trash and redo this project ten times and still come in 10k under what the "professionals" wanted to do it. So, it's worth my time to learn.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 12:37:47 PM EST
Unethical lawyers rape industry (i.e., consumers)

Stop this fucking planet.  I want off NOW.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 12:44:49 PM EST
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Originally Posted By xeeoneyx:


Fun fact: I can mess up, trash and redo this project ten times and still come in 10k under what the "professionals" wanted to do it. So, it's worth my time to learn.
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I had no intention to be critical - we all learn by doing. It's a hell of a lot better that you are doing it yourself.

I do plenty of things where I would probably be better off hiring a professional - I'd rather mess up a few times and do it myself.

Just trying to be helpful...
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 1:01:49 PM EST
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Originally Posted By decoy007:


Yep and it will probably shrink quite a bit
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Shrinkage along the grain is actually very small.
Longitudinal shrinkage is 0.1% to 0.2%.

Tangential and radial shrinkage are the much larger numbers.


See Chapter 4 of the Wood Handbook from USDA.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 1:02:15 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Yarael:
They were that size before they were dried out basically. A 2x2x8 isn't really that. More like 1.75x1.75x7.5 or so. Thus you learned that they fuck you on the board size.
View Quote
Lumber is more true to size when it is rough sawn (usually still green, too).

Once it is dried and they smooth the surfaces, all dimensioned lumber will be 1/2" smaller than the rough sawn size (2X2 = 1.5 X 1.5, 2X4 = 1.5X3.5,...).
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 1:12:57 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Yarael:
They were that size before they were dried out basically. A 2x2x8 isn't really that. More like 1.75x1.75x7.5 or so. Thus you learned that they fuck you on the board size.
View Quote
Longitudinal shrinkage is 0.1% to 0.2%.
And that is saturated to oven dry.

That is the ONE dimension of wood that does not change much at all.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 1:33:35 PM EST
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Originally Posted By prosecondman:
Usually only wall studs are exact length.
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Add kiln dried....
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 7:51:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/13/2017 7:58:05 PM EST by brickeyee]
Anyone selling wood that is shorter than the length is ripping you off.

A call to your state's weights and standards board should get things moving along.

A visit by the state inspector and then a complaint of short measures usually puts the real fear of god into store managers.

Lowe's has been cited for undersized boards.

2x4 that did not meet 1-1/2 x 3-1/2.

State weight and measurement boards exist to make sure this does not happen.

While a 2x12 might move in width slightly as it drys out further it is NOT going to be even 1/4 of an inch.
Even 1/8 would be a lot for kiln dried wood to move during shipping and storage.

Just make sure you understand that boards over 6 inches wide are less 3/4 instead of 1/2.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 6:53:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By xeeoneyx:
I purchased 50 4" x 4" x 6' boards from Lowes. They are the uprights to a large platform that I am building. I am halfway through construction and I realized that they are not actually 6' long. They are all different lengths and range from half an inch to an entire inch too short. If these were getting buried I wouldn't care but these are standing on a flat concrete floor and the difference in heights is a huge problem.

I understand that lumber sizing is deceptive but the website lists the "actual" dimensions as 3.5" x 3.5" x 6'. Are they in the wrong here or am I?

ETA: My 12' boards are all actually a half inch too long. So, I have to trim every single 12' board to length now as well.
View Quote


If you didn't know a 4x4 is finished to 3.5x3.5, you shouldn't be buying limber and building shit, because you wont build it correctly and potentially get yourself hurt when it fails.

Stop what you are doing and hire a professional that knows what they are doing.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 6:57:32 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Yarael:
They were that size before they were dried out basically. A 2x2x8 isn't really that. More like 1.75x1.75x7.5 or so. Thus you learned that they fuck you on the board size.
View Quote
That's wrong. They are 4x4 rough cut, they are finish cut and smoothed to 3.5x3.5. Been that standard way for decades.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 6:58:46 AM EST
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Originally Posted By WhyTanFox:
You should definitely call a lawyer OP.


:-/
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No he should have called a contractor. He doesn't know what the hell he's doing.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 7:00:04 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By -Kyuss-:
In this thread we see a prime example of why you don't buy dimensional lumber from a big box store.
View Quote
Or don't buy lumber from anyone if you don't know standard lumber dimensions.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 7:02:29 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By brickeyee:
Anyone selling wood that is shorter than the length is ripping you off.

A call to your state's weights and standards board should get things moving along.

A visit by the state inspector and then a complaint of short measures usually puts the real fear of god into store managers.

Lowe's has been cited for undersized boards.

2x4 that did not meet 1-1/2 x 3-1/2.

State weight and measurement boards exist to make sure this does not happen.

While a 2x12 might move in width slightly as it drys out further it is NOT going to be even 1/4 of an inch.
Even 1/8 would be a lot for kiln dried wood to move during shipping and storage.

Just make sure you understand that boards over 6 inches wide are less 3/4 instead of 1/2.
View Quote
He didn't say they sold him boards too short.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 7:45:17 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By xeeoneyx:


Fun fact: I can mess up, trash and redo this project ten times and still come in 10k under what the "professionals" wanted to do it. So, it's worth my time to learn.
View Quote
I hope you aren't saving a bunch on material costs. There are engineering considerations you may not be aware of that may require more material than you are calculating.

I'm just saying a 6ft high deck with posts sitting on concrete wouldn't normally be a first time DIY build project if you don't even know how lumber is sized and sold. I've been a DIY'er for 30 years, starting by helping my dad on build projects as a kid. As an adult I've helped him build decks, a garage, a 12x18 workshop, he's helped my build various things. There are always considerations you may not be aware of, that may bite you and get someone hurt.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 8:18:30 AM EST
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Originally Posted By brickeyee:
Lowe's has been cited for undersized boards.

2x4 that did not meet 1-1/2 x 3-1/2.
View Quote
That was not the problem at Lowe's: the stated "problem" was that the 2x4's were not 2 inches by four inches; the actual problem is that no one takes wood shop in grammar school, so idiot DIY'ers got pissy that their 2x4's were 1.5x3.5's and idiot employees were not able to articulate the difference between rough sawn and dimensional lumber.

People that had no clue how an industry works were butt hurt that a 2x4 isn't 2"x4".
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 8:19:37 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By youngandfree:
No he should have called a contractor. He doesn't know what the hell he's doing.
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Originally Posted By youngandfree:
Originally Posted By WhyTanFox:
You should definitely call a lawyer OP.


:-/
No he should have called a contractor. He doesn't know what the hell he's doing.
That goes without saying.

... which is why I didn't say it :-)
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 8:31:03 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By WhyTanFox:


That was not the problem at Lowe's: the stated "problem" was that the 2x4's were not 2 inches by four inches; the actual problem is that no one takes wood shop in grammar school, so idiot DIY'ers got pissy that their 2x4's were 1.5x3.5's and idiot employees were not able to articulate the difference between rough sawn and dimensional lumber.

People that had no clue how an industry works were butt hurt that a 2x4 isn't 2"x4".
View Quote
And the only reason lowes gave him a discount on a saw, which he should have had if he's building a deck or deck type structure, was to make him shut up and go away. I'd like to be a fly in the wall in their next staff meeting.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 12:55:17 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By WhyTanFox:
That was not the problem at Lowe's: the stated "problem" was that the 2x4's were not 2 inches by four inches; the actual problem is that no one takes wood shop in grammar school, so idiot DIY'ers got pissy that their 2x4's were 1.5x3.5's and idiot employees were not able to articulate the difference between rough sawn and dimensional lumber.

People that had no clue how an industry works were butt hurt that a 2x4 isn't 2"x4".
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Originally Posted By WhyTanFox:
Originally Posted By brickeyee:
Lowe's has been cited for undersized boards.

2x4 that did not meet 1-1/2 x 3-1/2.
That was not the problem at Lowe's: the stated "problem" was that the 2x4's were not 2 inches by four inches; the actual problem is that no one takes wood shop in grammar school, so idiot DIY'ers got pissy that their 2x4's were 1.5x3.5's and idiot employees were not able to articulate the difference between rough sawn and dimensional lumber.

People that had no clue how an industry works were butt hurt that a 2x4 isn't 2"x4".
No.

they had cut them even smaller.

By about 1/8 inch so 3-3/8 x 1-3/8.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 12:55:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/14/2017 12:57:18 PM EST by brickeyee]
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Originally Posted By youngandfree:
He didn't say they sold him boards too short.
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Originally Posted By youngandfree:
Originally Posted By brickeyee:
Anyone selling wood that is shorter than the length is ripping you off.

A call to your state's weights and standards board should get things moving along.

A visit by the state inspector and then a complaint of short measures usually puts the real fear of god into store managers.

Lowe's has been cited for undersized boards.

2x4 that did not meet 1-1/2 x 3-1/2.

State weight and measurement boards exist to make sure this does not happen.

While a 2x12 might move in width slightly as it drys out further it is NOT going to be even 1/4 of an inch.
Even 1/8 would be a lot for kiln dried wood to move during shipping and storage.

Just make sure you understand that boards over 6 inches wide are less 3/4 instead of 1/2.
He didn't say they sold him boards too short.
OP: "that they are not actually 6' long."

Sure sounds like to short.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 12:59:29 PM EST
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Originally Posted By brickeyee:
No.

they had cut them even smaller.

By about 1/8 inch so 3-3/8 x 1-3/8.
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Originally Posted By brickeyee:
Originally Posted By WhyTanFox:
Originally Posted By brickeyee:
Lowe's has been cited for undersized boards.

2x4 that did not meet 1-1/2 x 3-1/2.
That was not the problem at Lowe's: the stated "problem" was that the 2x4's were not 2 inches by four inches; the actual problem is that no one takes wood shop in grammar school, so idiot DIY'ers got pissy that their 2x4's were 1.5x3.5's and idiot employees were not able to articulate the difference between rough sawn and dimensional lumber.

People that had no clue how an industry works were butt hurt that a 2x4 isn't 2"x4".
No.

they had cut them even smaller.

By about 1/8 inch so 3-3/8 x 1-3/8.
Source? Everything I have seen so far was the difference between rough cut and dimensional.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 1:04:39 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Yarael:
They were that size before they were dried out basically. A 2x2x8 isn't really that. More like 1.75x1.75x7.5 or so. Thus you learned that they fuck you on the board size.
View Quote
This is incorrect. The sizing of the lumber is "pre milled". A 2x4 is actually 1.5x3.5. However the length should be as long or longer than listed.

OP, have you called Lowes and give them a chance to make it correct?
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 1:25:00 PM EST
It's been stated, correctly, several times.
OP bought 6' long 4x4s. They vary in length and most are short.

They should be at least 6' long, and normally they are going to be anywhere from 1/4" to 3/4" longer than required.
That is standard practice.
Lowes owes OP 6' posts. They should have done an exchange and given him 8' posts rather than a deal on a saw.
Selling short boards is ripping people off.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 1:52:43 PM EST
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Originally Posted By AR-10:
It's been stated, correctly, several times.
OP bought 6' long 4x4s. They vary in length and most are short.

They should be at least 6' long, and normally they are going to be anywhere from 1/4" to 3/4" longer than required.
That is standard practice.
Lowes owes OP 6' posts. They should have done an exchange and given him 8' posts rather than a deal on a saw.
Selling short boards is ripping people off.
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I thoroughly agree, but it IS OP's responsibility to make sure they are the right length BEFORE building something with them.

I think the concession he got was reasonable under the circumstances.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 1:57:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/14/2017 5:30:09 PM EST by youngandfree]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By brickeyee:



OP: "that they are not actually 6' long."

Sure sounds like to short.
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I reread the OP and stand corrected.

I zeroed in on the 12ft boards being too long at the end of his post.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 2:00:00 PM EST
I'm still curious what the actual design is. He said raised platform over concrete, which to me sounds like a deck. Bolting a band to the top that is level, or notching the tops of the posts eliminates any absokute requirement to have the lengths all be exactly the same.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 4:25:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 5:29:39 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
I would like to know how he picked up 6' long 4x4s as that is not a standard length.

If he requested that they were 6' long, then some dipshit at the store cut them short while trying to fill the order.
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Ding ding ding.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 6:14:49 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
I would like to know how he picked up 6' long 4x4s as that is not a standard length.

If he requested that they were 6' long, then some dipshit at the store cut them short while trying to fill the order.
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here
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 6:36:58 PM EST
So here's an aside to this whole, lowes selling dimensionally wrong lumber. Lowe's doesn't cut the wood, they get it from a supplier. Is Lowes or any other retailer expected to verify length on all the lumber they receive, or does the responsibility fall back to the supplier they were using?
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 1:58:57 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By youngandfree:
So here's an aside to this whole, lowes selling dimensionally wrong lumber. Lowe's doesn't cut the wood, they get it from a supplier. Is Lowes or any other retailer expected to verify length on all the lumber they receive, or does the responsibility fall back to the supplier they were using?
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Yes, if they're going to resell it with the assumption that it meets minimum standards. The end user typically measures and trims it to the exact length before using it in a project, but it's expected to be at least the minimum length advertised. I've bought a lot of lumber, and never once carried a tape into the store to make sure the boards were at least the minimum length; it's just assumed they will be. Lowe's of course has the right to take the supplier to task for the same reason, but it's on their shoulders to do this before the product is offered to the consumer.
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 2:08:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/15/2017 2:15:25 AM EST by xeeoneyx]
Just to clear up some misunderstandings and answer some questions:

1) I know that 4" x 4"s are 3.5" x 3.5". The issue was that all 50 boards were under 6' in length. Way under.

2) Lowes loaded their entire inventory of them into my trailer by forklift. I did not measure them. In 30 years of building things I have never received a board that was too short. They were straight and looked perfect, so I didn't question it.

3) The platform was engineered by a professional and is an easy bolt together project. I am just following the drawings.

4) I have lots of saws but none of them do a good job with 4x4s. The one they gave me works great. I am happy that they owned up to it and did something for me.

5) I've lived in houses down here where the toilets flush with hot water and the sheet rock is as wavy as the ocean. Hiring a "professional" in Florida is not the same as hiring one up north.
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 6:00:12 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By xeeoneyx:
Just to clear up some misunderstandings and answer some questions:

1) I know that 4" x 4"s are 3.5" x 3.5". The issue was that all 50 boards were under 6' in length. Way under.

2) Lowes loaded their entire inventory of them into my trailer by forklift. I did not measure them. In 30 years of building things I have never received a board that was too short. They were straight and looked perfect, so I didn't question it.

3) The platform was engineered by a professional and is an easy bolt together project. I am just following the drawings.

4) I have lots of saws but none of them do a good job with 4x4s. The one they gave me works great. I am happy that they owned up to it and did something for me.

5) I've lived in houses down here where the toilets flush with hot water and the sheet rock is as wavy as the ocean. Hiring a "professional" in Florida is not the same as hiring one up north.
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Your original post intimated that you were confused about the 3.5x3.5 part of the dimensions, and the length was just a side issue, so I apologize for being a dick.
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 6:06:00 AM EST
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