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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 4/13/2006 9:26:09 AM EDT
I want to build a rifle for plinking, ranch defense and SHTF the rifle would spend most of its time in rural areas and also city.

I would like the range to be 5-500 meters and I would like to use M193 FMJ,

Heres what I am thinking 14.5 might be too short for ball past 150meters anything past that it isn't going to do much. True or not?

I was thinking 16" heavy barrel ACOG collapsable stock with a bipod similar to the designated rifleman weapons being used in the army.

Or should I just step up to 20" for those long shots?

Mind you I also want it in confined spaces.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:27:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 9:27:29 AM EDT by TheRedHorseman]
20" the DM rifles if I'm not mistaken are 18"
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:27:14 AM EDT
24" is the only way to go for long range..
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:27:36 AM EDT
16" is a good balance between long reach and close mobility IMO, and it avoids that pesky NFA stamp.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:27:57 AM EDT
FAL Carbine......
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:28:52 AM EDT
16" to avoid the whole NFA problems. Anything else is "overkill" for 5-500.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:29:12 AM EDT
If you know that your going to be in close areas against armor wearing enemies then I would say you should go with a 16", but against un armored enemies, that's where a handgun comes in very handy.

I vote for the 20" because the longer barrel improves projectile effectiveness. Enabling you to take those longer shots with a higher velocity projectile.


Disclamer: I don't own a rifle or a handgun yet.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:30:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 9:31:09 AM EDT by TheRedHorseman]

Originally Posted By madmann135:
If you know that your going to be in close areas against armor wearing enemies then I would say you should go with a 16", but against un armored enemies, that's where a handgun comes in very handy.

I vote for the 20" because the longer barrel improves projectile effectiveness. Enabling you to take those longer shots with a higher velocity projectile.


Disclamer: I don't own a rifle or a handgun yet.



then why are you even responding?

edit: must be years of hard training with video games
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:30:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 9:31:34 AM EDT by xinflt]
For once we get a thread from 1911greg that's not about chick problems!
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:32:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By xinflt:
For once we get a thread from 1911greg that's not about chick problems!



I think he's metaphorically speaking.

He really wants to know if you should pick the short chick or the tall chick.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:33:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By madmann135:
If you know that your going to be in close areas against armor wearing enemies then I would say you should go with a 16", but against un armored enemies, that's where a handgun comes in very handy.

I vote for the 20" because the longer barrel improves projectile effectiveness. Enabling you to take those longer shots with a higher velocity projectile.


Disclamer: I don't own a rifle or a handgun yet.



You try lugging around a 20" bull barrel with optics rifle and tell me if you want to use it as your all purpose rifle.

Remember, this guy wants al ALL PURPOSE rifle and a heavy bulky precision shooter is NOT an all purpose rifle. Trust me on that!

And to boot, he'll be MUCH better served by spending his money on quality over inches. I'd take a 16" Compass Lake Krieger over a 20" Bushie/RRA/whatever any day of the week.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:33:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:


I was thinking 16" heavy barrel ACOG collapsable stock with a bipod similar to the designated rifleman weapons being used in the army.



I think you're on the right track. Now the question is caliber - 5.56, .308, 6.8, or 6.5?
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:34:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By madmann135:
If you know that your going to be in close areas against armor wearing enemies then I would say you should go with a 16", but against un armored enemies, that's where a handgun comes in very handy.

I vote for the 20" because the longer barrel improves projectile effectiveness. Enabling you to take those longer shots with a higher velocity projectile.


Disclamer: I don't own a rifle or a handgun yet.



then why are you even responding?

edit: must be years of hard training with video games



Agreed. What the hell is the point of posting a response if you have no idea what you're talking about?
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:34:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FooDog:

Originally Posted By xinflt:
For once we get a thread from 1911greg that's not about chick problems!



I think he's metaphorically speaking.

He really wants to know if you should pick the short chick or the tall chick.



Hooah, you fuckers saw right thru it!
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:41:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 9:43:41 AM EDT by Burkey]
20 in. 1/7 twist pencil barrel on an A4 upper? Could this work? Can you even find that set-up? I was thinking that the pencil would keep the weight down. The rail could give him either CQB or long range optics, and the 1/7 20 in. barrel could give him extended fragmentation range with heavy loads still stabilized. Could he also get a 18 in. in pencil barrel.? Does anyone make these barrels?
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:44:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By madmann135:
If you know that your going to be in close areas against armor wearing enemies then I would say you should go with a 16", but against un armored enemies, that's where a handgun comes in very handy.

I vote for the 20" because the longer barrel improves projectile effectiveness. Enabling you to take those longer shots with a higher velocity projectile.


Disclamer: I don't own a rifle or a handgun yet.



You try lugging around a 20" bull barrel with optics rifle and tell me if you want to use it as your all purpose rifle.

Remember, this guy wants al ALL PURPOSE rifle and a heavy bulky precision shooter is NOT an all purpose rifle. Trust me on that!

And to boot, he'll be MUCH better served by spending his money on quality over inches. I'd take a 16" Compass Lake Krieger over a 20" Bushie/RRA/whatever any day of the week.



Why would a 20" be a "heavy bulky precision shooter". The original post said nothing about the barrel having to be a bull barrel.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:44:41 AM EDT
Ok you said Long range in your title then you say 5-500 meters.. Well 500 is not long range.. So I take back my vote for 24" and say go for the 10".. It more better suited to what you want...
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:48:09 AM EDT
If it's got to be 5.56mm go with 18" or 20" barrel IMHO. You want 5-500 meters and want to use M193... You're not fragmenting outside of what, 250m even with the 20"... You can extend that a bit with Black Hills bluebox 75 or 77 gr.

If you go to the .308 go 18"+
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:52:49 AM EDT
who said the 20 has to be a HBAR? use a government profile if you want lower weight
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:56:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mjohn3006:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By madmann135:
If you know that your going to be in close areas against armor wearing enemies then I would say you should go with a 16", but against un armored enemies, that's where a handgun comes in very handy.

I vote for the 20" because the longer barrel improves projectile effectiveness. Enabling you to take those longer shots with a higher velocity projectile.


Disclamer: I don't own a rifle or a handgun yet.



You try lugging around a 20" bull barrel with optics rifle and tell me if you want to use it as your all purpose rifle.

Remember, this guy wants al ALL PURPOSE rifle and a heavy bulky precision shooter is NOT an all purpose rifle. Trust me on that!

And to boot, he'll be MUCH better served by spending his money on quality over inches. I'd take a 16" Compass Lake Krieger over a 20" Bushie/RRA/whatever any day of the week.



Why would a 20" be a "heavy bulky precision shooter". The original post said nothing about the barrel having to be a bull barrel.




I have a weird memory, read multiple reviews and the military uses the 20" as their classic rifle. Yes a longer barrel produces better projectile efective range but to a degree.
I included the disclamer because I prefer to tell the whole story

I only replied out of boordom and I intend to get a 20" as my first AR
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:59:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 10:00:30 AM EDT by Specop_007]

Originally Posted By mjohn3006:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By madmann135:
If you know that your going to be in close areas against armor wearing enemies then I would say you should go with a 16", but against un armored enemies, that's where a handgun comes in very handy.

I vote for the 20" because the longer barrel improves projectile effectiveness. Enabling you to take those longer shots with a higher velocity projectile.


Disclamer: I don't own a rifle or a handgun yet.



You try lugging around a 20" bull barrel with optics rifle and tell me if you want to use it as your all purpose rifle.

Remember, this guy wants al ALL PURPOSE rifle and a heavy bulky precision shooter is NOT an all purpose rifle. Trust me on that!

And to boot, he'll be MUCH better served by spending his money on quality over inches. I'd take a 16" Compass Lake Krieger over a 20" Bushie/RRA/whatever any day of the week.



Why would a 20" be a "heavy bulky precision shooter". The original post said nothing about the barrel having to be a bull barrel.



Because it makes sense. Theres going to be no noticable difference between a 16" and 20" barrel in real world applications as long as you have ranged out those differences (In other words, tested to see where they shoot).
So, if your already going to get the longer barrel you might as well go with a bull barrel.

For real world all purpose use you cannot beat a 16" barrel because it'll do everything a longer barrel will do out in the case given by the OP and its easier to move around in tight quarters and its lighter.

You just cant go wrong with a good 16" barrel. For out to 500 you just dont need any more. If he was shooting competitions or wanting to go the big 1K thats a different story because that is a dedicated precision shooter, something thats a range queen.
But he wanted a general purpose rifle. He wants a SHTF/medium (long?) range and ranch defense. Thats general purpose. The small gains you see from the extra inches do not outweight the downside of that extra 4 inches.
Harder to move around, harder to get into and out of the truck, slower on target in close range encounters and heavier to name a few, and in reality all your gaining is maybe a 100 FPS.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 9:59:46 AM EDT
I want to use 556 because this is a AR project and I have some basic parts... I already have a couple 7.62's

I want to keep things simple by using a AR platform in 5.56mm, I know its not the best for longer range but i think it will do...

So what range will m193 frag at for a 16" how about tumble? Will it just icepick past 200m?
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 10:02:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 10:04:25 AM EDT by chips]
i guess i'll be one of the few voting for a 14.5" or 16" barrell...

with a 1.5" permanently affixed flash hider, NFA is not an issue. this will give you small, light package that can be quickly deployed and that can be manuvered through tight spaces more easily than a 20".

if you wanted something for mid-long range shooting exclusively, then yes, a 14.5" is out.


would getting two uppers be out of the question?


ETA: i did see fragmentation with a 14.5" barrell while shooting water jugs at 150 yards. i don't know how much further you'd be able to go...
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 10:03:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
I want to use 556 because this is a AR project and I have some basic parts... I already have a couple 7.62's

I want to keep things simple by using a AR platform in 5.56mm, I know its not the best for longer range but i think it will do...

So what range will m193 frag at for a 16" how about tumble? Will it just icepick past 200m?



As soon as it leaves the barrel.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 10:03:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 1911greg:
I want to use 556 because this is a AR project and I have some basic parts... I already have a couple 7.62's

I want to keep things simple by using a AR platform in 5.56mm, I know its not the best for longer range but i think it will do...

So what range will m193 frag at for a 16" how about tumble? Will it just icepick past 200m?[/quote]

read the ammo oracle...

otherwise you can expect answers from others who don't own a rifle or a handgun yet.

Link Posted: 4/13/2006 10:05:20 AM EDT
I use a 9mm AR with an 11" barrel for all my long distance work.

I use a modified M203 sight to get the 9mm out past 300 meters.

Sure, this set up may SEAM odd, but I'll tell you that Black Hills ammo really delivers.

Link Posted: 4/13/2006 10:06:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 10:08:26 AM EDT by Coolio]

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
who said the 20 has to be a HBAR? use a government profile if you want lower weight



Yup.
The correct answer is government profile 20" mounted to an A3 upper.

Unfortunately this upper is not offered as a finished upper (at least not by Bushmaster).
But you can have them build you one (or you can build it or have your favorite gunsmith build it for you).
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 10:07:16 AM EDT
Sir, with an eye toward recycling a barrel, I am presently having one of my used Kreigers modified to sixteen inches, rechambered and crowned. I have every reason to believe the rifle will shoot reasonably well at extended ranges, but my choice of ammo is different than yours. I will use my handloads with 77gr. Sierra match kings. The last time I used this barrel in competition I was able to shoot an X ring sized group in the rapid fire prone stage of a match at 300yd, and a 197-8X at 600yd. I do not expect anything less even with the barrel now being shorter. At 500yd I expect due to the low BC of your M193 bullets you'll experience considerable difficulty with wind drift regardless if you go with sixteen inch, fourteen point five, or twenty inch barrels. For the same reason mentioned by others, I would not elect to use a fourteen point five inch barrel. JMHO, 7zero1.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 10:08:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chips:
i guess i'll be one of the few voting for a 14.5" or 16" barrell...

with a 1.5" permanently affixed flash hider, NFA is not an issue. this will give you small, light package that can be quickly deployed and that can be manuvered through tight spaces more easily than a 20".

if you wanted something for mid-long range shooting exclusively, then yes, a 14.5" is out.


would getting two uppers be out of the question?


ETA: i did see fragmentation with a 14.5" barrell while shooting water jugs at 150 yards. i don't know how much further you'd be able to go...



what is the point of going to 14.5? all you do is lose velocity and lose the ability to easily swap out muzzle devices. I'd rather carry a couple ounces of extra steel to be able to do what I wish with my rifle.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 10:16:57 AM EDT
i have a bushmaster 16inch that every now and then i use for longer range shooting. ive killed coyotes and other critters like that over 500 yards before. Its always done more than enough damage to kill with one shot. granted ive never shot anyone with it at that range but i wouldnt doubt it would do the job.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 10:35:20 AM EDT
I have a 16" Oly Stainless Ultra Match on a flattop upper that has served me very well for just the type of use you are looking for. It is a tad heavy, but not overly so.

I am not a huge Olympic Arms fan, but this is one product I like a great deal. I think Brownells sells that barrel as well.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 11:01:01 AM EDT

I was thinking 16" heavy barrel ACOG collapsable stock with a bipod similar to the designated rifleman weapons being used in the army.



I think you hit the bullseye here. IMO its the perfect balance between Long-range and Up-Close

And I own pistols AND rifles
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 11:18:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Coolio:
Unfortunately this upper is not offered as a finished upper (at least not by Bushmaster)..



That upper is offered by Bushmaster, Stag, and CMMG (and I wouldn't doubt Bravo Co as well).

Time for some facts

The difference between the fragmentation range of a M4 and a 20" is roughly 100 yards with M193. Even with the 20" you won't be fragmenting M193 past 200y.

So at 500 yards it really doesn't matter if you've got a 14.5" or a 20" wound profile will be the same.

But can you see a target at 500y? How about when it is prone, how about when you are prone? What if it's moving? How do you know it's hostile?

Some other facts.
1) Most combat engagments take place at 100y or less
2) far less than 1% of COMBAT shots are taken at 500y. (that includes the era of the .30-06 and M14 rifle).

Build a carbine (14.5" or 16" whichever you prefer). It will be lighter, handier, get into/out of a vehicle easier, and do the job you want w/o the uneeded weight.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 11:33:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2006 11:35:17 AM EDT by lippo]

Originally Posted By NonConformist:

I was thinking 16" heavy M4 barrel, ACOG, forearm rail, collapsable stock with a bipod similar to the designated rifleman weapons being used in the army.



I think you hit the bullseye here. IMO its the perfect balance between Long-range and Up-Close

And I own pistols AND rifles




+1


And...


Uh, oh...better get ADCO!



www.adcofirearms.com
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 11:41:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By Coolio:
Unfortunately this upper is not offered as a finished upper (at least not by Bushmaster)..



That upper is offered by Bushmaster, Stag, and CMMG (and I wouldn't doubt Bravo Co as well).

Time for some facts

The difference between the fragmentation range of a M4 and a 20" is roughly 100 yards with M193. Even with the 20" you won't be fragmenting M193 past 200y.

So at 500 yards it really doesn't matter if you've got a 14.5" or a 20" wound profile will be the same.

But can you see a target at 500y? How about when it is prone, how about when you are prone? What if it's moving? How do you know it's hostile?

Some other facts.
1) Most combat engagments take place at 100y or less
2) far less than 1% of COMBAT shots are taken at 500y. (that includes the era of the .30-06 and M14 rifle).

Build a carbine (14.5" or 16" whichever you prefer). It will be lighter, handier, get into/out of a vehicle easier, and do the job you want w/o the uneeded weight.



Exactly what I've been saying, except now with supporting data. Well done.

The only difference between 16" and 20" is 4 more inches of "Goddamnit" when getting in and out of the house/safe/case/car for the case made by the OP.
Link Posted: 4/13/2006 11:55:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Coolio:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
who said the 20 has to be a HBAR? use a government profile if you want lower weight



Yup.
The correct answer is government profile 20" mounted to an A3 upper.

Unfortunately this upper is not offered as a finished upper (at least not by Bushmaster).
But you can have them build you one (or you can build it or have your favorite gunsmith build it for you).



Bushy does. It just ain't obvious. You have to dig (a.k.a call them and be very clear about what you want). You can also get a 1/7 twist (again call and be clear). I know, I went through it and now I have one.

There is a thread in the Bushy forum that has the part numbers.

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