Posted on Tue, Aug. 09, 2005

Lockheed Martin announced Tuesday that it will team with MD Helicopters Inc.
to submit an entry for the U.S. Army's upcoming competition to buy a light
utility helicopter.

The Lockheed-MD Helicopters team will be competing against, among others,
Bell Helicopter of Fort Worth for the $1 billion plus contract to supply 322
helicopters for use by the Army and National Guard.

Bell and Lockheed earlier joined forces with AgustaWestland Inc. to win a
contract to build new presidential helicopters for the Navy.

The Lockheed-MD team will offer the Army a version of the civilian MD
Explorer twin-engine helicopter with the NOTAR(R) no-tail-rotor anti-torque
system.

Other major helicopter manufacturers, including American Eurocopter and
Agusta Westland, are also expected to compete for the Army contract.

The Army program calls for acquiring 322 new commercial helicopters between
2006 and 2015 to perform a wide range of missions in the United States and
overseas, including transport of personnel and supplies, disaster relief
operations and medical evacuation.

To lower costs, the Army wants to buy only slightly modified versions of
existing civil helicopters. Bell is offering the Bell 210, a completely
rebuilt version of the existing single-engine Bell 205 Huey that has been
certified by the Federal Aviation Administration for commercial sales.

As it is doing with the presidential helicopter, Lockheed Martin Systems
Integration in Owego, N.Y., will lead the Lockheed-MD team as prime
contractor, overseeing aircraft assembly at MD Helicopter's production
facility in Mesa, Ariz., and providing training, simulation devices and
contractor logistics support.

"The Lockheed Martin/MD Helicopters team will offer the U.S. Army and Army
National Guard a proven commercial-off-the-shelf aircraft, and the training
and logistics support to ensure long-term aircraft flight readiness," said
Jeff Bantle, a Lockheed Martin vice president.

MD Helicopters was formerly McDonnell Douglas Helicopters. Boeing sold off
the civilian helicopter business after it acquired McDonnell Douglas in
1997.

The teaming agreement comes just weeks after Patriarch Partners, LLC, a New
York-based financial firm, acquired a controlling interest in MD
Helicopters. The transaction ensures that MDHI will have adequate working
capital to continue production of existing product lines to meet commercial
backlog and fulfill LUH production requirements.

The FAA-certified MD Explorer(R) uses twin Pratt & Whitney 207E turbine
engines, and provides Instrument Flight Rules capability for day, night and
night-vision-goggle operations. A crashworthy frame, energy-absorbing crew
seating and a crash-resistant fuel system meet military needs. With 30
square feet of usable flat floor, the aircraft has the largest cabin in the
light-twin class, with space for six passengers.

Interesting that it's Lock-Mart and not Boeing partnering up here...

I heard Boeing is submitting a modified SuperHornet for the competition.

Yeah !!! Bring back the Huey !

Quoted: Yeah !!! Bring back the Huey !

:unsure:

If it means anything to ya, the Marine Corps still uses the Huey.

Quoted: Yeah !!! Bring back the Huey !

This is closer to the truth than you know, Bell is bidding the LUH contract with the Bell B-210

www.bellhelicopter.com/en/aircraft/commercial/bell210.cfm

This is actually quite the helicopter. By the way the MD-902 is a POS (1.0 hr pre-purchase evaluation flight).

Quoted: Quoted: Yeah !!! Bring back the Huey ! This is closer to the truth than you know, Bell is bidding the LUH contract with the Bell B-210 www.bellhelicopter.com/en/aircraft/commercial/bell210.cfm This is actually quite the helicopter. By the way the MD-902 is a POS (1.0 hr pre-purchase evaluation flight).

... Hardly, the MD 902 "Explorer" is a fine, high performance business helicopter. It's agile, fast, powerful and nimble. It truly is the sports car of helicopters. With some engineered modifications to its airframe, I believe it could be a formidable entry for a future utility aircraft. Unfortunately, although they are neighbors sharing a common road across from each other, there is bad blood between MD Helicopters and Boeing right now.

I thought the contract was already awarded for the Bell helicopter (instead of the modified H-6 little bird)?

And, the MD Explorer mentioned in the article is a NOTAR, I thought the military wasnt interested in those systems?

Kharn

Tagged for ANdy's reply regarding Bell's modified UH-1 submission.

Quoted: I thought the contract was already awarded for the Bell helicopter (instead of the modified H-6 little bird)? And, the MD Explorer mentioned in the article is a NOTAR, I thought the military wasnt interested in those systems? Kharn

... You're thinking of the Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter, this is the Utility contract

I wonder when fling wings will ever catch on.

... Hardly, the MD 902 "Explorer" is a fine, high performance business helicopter. It's agile, fast, powerful and nimble. It truly is the sports car of helicopters. With some engineered modifications to its airframe, I believe it could be a formidable entry for a future utility aircraft. Unfortunately, although they are neighbors sharing a common road across from each other, there is bad blood between MD Helicopters and Boeing right now.

You're biased because you look at them when you drive into work everyday.

... Hardly, the MD 902 "Explorer" is a fine, high performance business helicopter. It's agile, fast, powerful and nimble. It truly is the sports car of helicopters. With some engineered modifications to its airframe, I believe it could be a formidable entry for a future utility aircraft. Unfortunately, although they are neighbors sharing a common road across from each other, there is bad blood between MD Helicopters and Boeing right now.

You're kidding, please tell me you're kidding. WTF does a sportscar have to do with utility work? Also how much utility work have you done with helicopters (as a pilot)?

Anything you can't stand up in the back of just isn't big enough these days...  

~Dg84 (Pavehawk crew member)

Quoted: ... Hardly, the MD 902 "Explorer" is a fine, high performance business helicopter. It's agile, fast, powerful and nimble. It truly is the sports car of helicopters. With some engineered modifications to its airframe, I believe it could be a formidable entry for a future utility aircraft. Unfortunately, although they are neighbors sharing a common road across from each other, there is bad blood between MD Helicopters and Boeing right now. You're kidding, please tell me you're kidding. WTF does a sportscar have to do with utility work? Also how much utility work have you done with helicopters (as a pilot)?

... As a pilot - zero. As but as an engineer, I submit you that with some aggressive, non-recurring militarized engineering, I could successfully deploy the MD-902 as an effective utility (and armed)  air vehicle.

... Without doubt - period.

Thats wonderful, I could put JATO on an R-22 and turn it into an incredible heavy lift machine. Dude, stick to finite analysis and give it up on the 902 it is a piss poor aircraft with MARGINAL anti-torque qualities @ sea level on a 95F day @ MTOW (internal). Thats just the kind of machine I would want to fly, especially while lifting external loads. By the way, how many of these "excellent sports car" chunks of crap are curently on the OAS/USFS CWN Fire list? I'll save you some time, none because they suck in the utility role.

Quoted: Thats wonderful, I could put JATO on an R-22 and turn it into an incredible heavy lift machine. Dude, stick to finite analysis and give it up on the 902 it is a piss poor aircraft with MARGINAL anti-torque qualities @ sea level on a 95F day @ MTOW (internal). Thats just the kind of machine I would want to fly, especially while lifting external loads. By the way, how many of these "excellent sports car" chunks of crap are curently on the OAS/USFS CWN Fire list? I'll save you some time, none because they suck in the utility role.

... AFAIK. the MD900 series aircraft has acceptable anti-Q properties in any hot-wet conditions up to 13K feet ASL. Admittedly, the airframe needs some attention for hard points (read as weapons), avionics and cargo, but the platform performs quite satisfactorily.

... I'm not a salesman for the aircraft, and although it was designed for a soft-under-belly commercial market, it could be militarized for a reasonable monetary value.

... You wanna know what we can do for a price? - Just IM me for details

Did you fail reading and comprehension 101 or what.
LIGHT FUCKING UTILITY HELICOPTER
They are NOT going to sling fucking M1 tanks or aircraft carriers under it.
LIGHT FUCKING UTILITY HELICOPTER

transport of personnel and supplies, disaster relief operations and medical evacuation.

The Light Utility Helicopter, operating as a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) certified rotorcraft, shall provide for occupant protection in a crash through designs that protect aircraft crew and passengers. The Army requests information on industry's ability to meet the design standards for crashworthiness and crew survivability as defined by the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) Part 27 or Part 29, Sections 561, 562, and 785 as of December 13, 1989. The LUH will be acquired as a Commercial-Off-the-Shelf (COTS)/Non-Developmental Item (NDI) aircraft that is Federal Aviation Agency (FAA) Type Standard Certified and will be maintained to retain that certification throughout the life cycle. The aircraft will operate in permissive, non-hostile, non-combat environments to satisfy light, GS mission requirements of Tables of Organization and Equipment (TOE) and Tables of Distribution and Allowances (TDA) units within both active and reserve components (Army National Guard - ARNG). The LUH shall operate in a high/hot environment defined as 4,000 feet pressure altitude and 95o Fahrenheit in the standard mission configuration. The LUH aircraft shall have an internal useful load of no less than 1,500 pounds during high/hot operations, in addition to the two crew, and full mission fuel plus a 30 minute reserve using not more than 100 percent maximum rated power (MRP) for takeoff. The LUH in standard mission configuration, shall be capable of achieving an operational range of no less than 217 nautical miles operating in the defined high/hot environment (4000’ / 95° Fahrenheit pressure altitude), with full crew, full mission fuel, using a 1-minute takeoff, cruise at 0.99 Velocity Best Range, with 30-minute reserve. The LUH aircraft, in basic mission configuration, shall be capable of a minimum of 2.8 hours of operation with a 30-minute reserve without the use of auxiliary fuel or Forward Arming and Refueling Points (FARPs). The internal cabin size, as well as points of entry and exit, of the LUH aircraft shall reasonably accommodate the loading, unloading, and transport of a pilot, co-pilot, and no less than two NATO standard litters with patients, one medical attendant with equipment, and one additional passenger. The cabin size of the LUH aircraft shall accommodate the seating and transport of a pilot, co-pilot, and no less than six passengers when not in the MEDEVAC configuration. The LUH aircraft shall be VHF-AM radio compatible with International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) frequency and modulation schemes, to include 118-137 MHz with 25 KHz U.S. and 8.33 KHz in Europe channel spacing. The LUH aircraft shall operate with extended frequency coverage for Military use (137-152 MHz, VHF-FM); compatible communications with U.S. Coast Guard (maritime, 156-174 MHz, VHF-FM); Military (225-400 MHz, UHF-AM); and law enforcement, fire, and forestry (400-511 MHz FM). The LUH aircraft shall have a global navigation satellite system receiver that provides protected precise position, velocity, and time (PVT) information, for use in civil and military airway and non-precision approach structures. The LUH shall be capable of conducting Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) recovery through an instrument landing system (ILS) or a VOR/TACAN/GPS type system. The LUH aircraft shall have a Mode S transponder to operate in class B and C national airspace. The LUH shall have a probability of 0.90 (Objective value of 0.95) of successfully completing a 3.67 hour mission without experiencing a mission abort. The LUH RAM requirements are defined by the mean time between system abort (MTBSA) and MTTR. To meet these operational missions, the MTBSA is set at a minimum of 35 hours.

Quoted: Thats wonderful, I could put JATO on an R-22 and turn it into an incredible heavy lift machine. Dude, stick to finite analysis and give it up on the 902 it is a piss poor aircraft with MARGINAL anti-torque qualities @ sea level on a 95F day @ MTOW (internal). Thats just the kind of machine I would want to fly, especially while lifting external loads. By the way, how many of these "excellent sports car" chunks of crap are curently on the OAS/USFS CWN Fire list? I'll save you some time, none because they suck in the utility role.

Other than the Huey, I don't see much mentioned on that list that would be very useful in the utility role.  The upgraded Huey would be my choice if I were picking.

It would also be less expensive. The US Army already has a bunch of UH-1H models. Send those in and have Bell put on the new goodies and then put them into service. You'd have a much more versatile platform at a very low cost. It wouldn't be a Blackhawk, but it could do many of the same missions if needed, whereas the other candidates would not have the space.

IMHO, having a helicopter that can only haul enough supplies to feed a den of squirrels is practically worthless. The Huey on the other hand could do many missions and is proven in military service. It can handle both light or medium missions and haul 10-13 troops if need be. Try sticking that many people on an MD.

What it sounds like they are talking about here is a helicopter that not necessarily be used to do the Blackhawk's mission, but rather compliment and support it. The Huey is more than capable of doing this.

Quoted: Did you fail reading and comprehension 101 or what. LIGHT FUCKING UTILITY HELICOPTER They are NOT going to sling fucking M1 tanks or aircraft carriers under it. LIGHT FUCKING UTILITY HELICOPTER

LOL...  somebody needs a time-out.
~Dg84

Quoted:
Did you fail reading and comprehension 101 or what.
LIGHT FUCKING UTILITY HELICOPTER
They are NOT going to sling fucking M1 tanks or aircraft carriers under it.
LIGHT FUCKING UTILITY HELICOPTER

That's great slick and just how much helicopter flying have you done for a living? I have flown helicopters for a paycheck for the last 15 years (EMS, Fire Fighting, Long Line, Off Shore, Mountain Operations to 10,000') I have 8,745 hrs doing shit your engineer friend cannot fathom with several different types of helicopters. I can say with authority NOTAR sucks! It also uses a greater percentage of available power than a tail rotor. As for the "coanda effect" that disapears as you ease your way through translational lift (resulting in uncomanded right yaw and an accompanying roll).

As for your uncontrollable rant once this aircraft is in servive to justify budgets it will be pressed into service as a fire fighting helo, probably in mountainous terain. If you think that will never happen consider that some clown will probably mount a hoist on this helicopter to lift"flood victims" to safety, the way the military does this it will be with a combined crew weight of around 900 lbs lifting 150 to 200 pound people. With "mission fuel" the 902 will not do this.

Dick.

Quoted: Other than the Huey, I don't see much mentioned on that list that would be very useful in the utility role.  The upgraded Huey would be my choice if I were picking. It would also be less expensive. The US Army already has a bunch of UH-1H models. Send those in and have Bell put on the new goodies and then put them into service. You'd have a much more versatile platform at a very low cost. It wouldn't be a Blackhawk, but it could do many of the same missions if needed, whereas the other candidates would not have the space. IMHO, having a helicopter that can only haul enough supplies to feed a den of squirrels is practically worthless. The Huey on the other hand could do many missions and is proven in military service. It can handle both light or medium missions and haul 10-13 troops if need be. Try sticking that many people on an MD. What it sounds like they are talking about here is a helicopter that not necessarily be used to do the Blackhawk's mission, but rather compliment and support it. The Huey is more than capable of doing this.

Dude,
You're spot on. the 210 is an H modle fuselage equiped with the 212 main rotor, tail rotor and drivetrain and a huge engine. While Bell products have their shortcommings that is really the best airframe for the job.

The Army is almost out of the Huey busisness.
The Bell 210 is built using the fuselage of the Armys retired UH-1H's.

You guys are missing the point and purpose of this helicopter.
It's to be used to transport people and light cargo within CONUS and outside for declared emergencies.

Quoted: Other than the Huey, I don't see much mentioned on that list that would be very useful in the utility role.  The upgraded Huey would be my choice if I were picking. It would also be less expensive. The US Army already has a bunch of UH-1H models. Send those in and have Bell put on the new goodies and then put them into service. You'd have a much more versatile platform at a very low cost. It wouldn't be a Blackhawk, but it could do many of the same missions if needed, whereas the other candidates would not have the space. IMHO, having a helicopter that can only haul enough supplies to feed a den of squirrels is practically worthless. The Huey on the other hand could do many missions and is proven in military service. It can handle both light or medium missions and haul 10-13 troops if need be. Try sticking that many people on an MD. What it sounds like they are talking about here is a helicopter that not necessarily be used to do the Blackhawk's mission, but rather compliment and support it. The Huey is more than capable of doing this.

IIRC, didn't someone on this board(Ross?) mention that .mil didn't care for NOTAR due to the fact if the tail got shot up, those extra vent holes decreased performance?

Flying? None. Crewing? About 50 hours in the Navys SH-3D and UH-1N/HH-1N as a dry crewman.
Probably about an hour of stick time between the two just messing around.

If you bothered to read the actual specs of what the Army wants the MD helo will fit the bill.

My personal opinion of a single engined helo is the same as a single engine fighter, it sucks.
Why fuck around with a single engined UH-1H when a UH-1N/HH-1N will fit the bill.

Hell, if it were up to me I would say go with a version of the Bell 412, but it's not about what I want.

If the MD can meet the Armys specs then so be it.  

As far as your experince goes BFD.

Quoted: That's great slick and just how much helicopter flying have you done for a living? I have flown helicopters for a paycheck for the last 15 years (EMS, Fire Fighting, Long Line, Off Shore, Mountain Operations to 10,000') I have 8,745 hrs doing shit your engineer friend cannot fathom with several different types of helicopters. I can say with authority NOTAR sucks! It also uses a greater percentage of available power than a tail rotor. As for the "coanda effect" that disapears as you ease your way through translational lift (resulting in uncomanded right yaw and an accompanying roll). As for your uncontrollable rant once this aircraft is in servive to justify budgets it will be pressed into service as a fire fighting helo, probably in mountainous terain. If you think that will never happen consider that some clown will probably mount a hoist on this helicopter to lift"flood victims" to safety, the way the military does this it will be with a combined crew weight of around 900 lbs lifting 150 to 200 pound people. With "mission fuel" the 902 will not do this. Dick.

Yes, but if you read the article as posted this helo is not supposed to be used in any type of a combat situation.
It's not going to be the Army next Dust-Off helo, that's what the Blackhawk is for.

...wide range of missions in the United States and overseas, including transport of personnel and  supplies, disaster relief operations and medical evacuation.

Quoted: IIRC, didn't someone on this board(Ross?) mention that .mil didn't care for NOTAR due to the fact if the tail got shot up, those extra vent holes decreased performance?

Quoted: The Army is almost out of the Huey busisness. The Bell 210 is built using the fuselage of the Armys retired UH-1H's. You guys are missing the point and purpose of this helicopter. It's to be used to transport people and light cargo within CONUS and outside for declared emergencies.

Oh sorry, why didn't you say light cargo...are you on crack? Nothing the military has is light including the crews and all of their extra crap. Instead of throwing a tantrum trying to defend your retarded engineer pal with an "armed" utility helicopter fixation why don't you listen to the people who do this (fly helicopters) every day?

Oh wow you were fucking talking baggage and you could read an oil sight guage on occasion. go play with your MS flight sim pal.

Oh really?
What's the TH-57?
The TH-67?
The OH-58?
The UC-12B/F?
The C-20?
C-21?

According to you those are all HEAVY aircraft.

The military classifies them as LIGHT aircraft.

As far as what YOU have to say I'll listen to WW over you any day.

Troll.

Quoted: Nothing the military has is light including the crews and all of their extra crap. Instead of throwing a tantrum trying to defend your retarded engineer pal with an "armed" utility helicopter fixation why don't you listen to the people who do this (fly helicopters) every day?

Quoted: Dick.

... Dick?

... Way to win friends and influence people in an intellectual discussion regarding complex, military vertical flight machinery. Just because one stick-jockey has an alleged 8K hours' grip on a cyclic doesn't make him a end-all fucking expert on rotorcraft military aircraft procurement.

... Wanna play here? I'd suggest you back up your juvenile repertoire with some facts - and perhaps a bit of tact and class. Otherwise, you can stuff your adolescence, disrespectful BS back where it came - Understand?

Ah well, if all they really want is a chopper to fly a handful of VIP's around in, deliver a box of bandages for the Red Cross or drag a single individual out of a situation in a rescue mission, I suppose the MD would suffice.

I dealt with plenty of shitbird know-it-all pilots like you in the military.
One thing you guys all have in common and that's bleeting about your "experince" and making fun of anyone who is not a god-almighty pilot.

Quoted: Oh wow you were fucking talking baggage and you could read an oil sight guage on occasion. go play with your MS flight sim pal.

Finally got around to reading the entire article.
Or else you had a 6th grader do it for you.
Either way I commend you for finally getting it.
Fly safe.

Quoted: Ah well, if all they really want is a chopper to fly a handful of VIP's around in, deliver a box of bandages for the Red Cross or drag a single individual out of a situation in a rescue mission, I suppose the MD would suffice.

Quoted: Anything you can't stand up in the back of just isn't big enough these days...   ~Dg84 (Pavehawk crew member)

[PRV] Get ready for more headroom. [/PRV]

Quoted: ... Hardly, the MD 902 "Explorer" is a fine, high performance business helicopter. It's agile, fast, powerful and nimble. It truly is the sports car of helicopters. With some engineered modifications to its airframe, I believe it could be a formidable entry for a future utility aircraft. Unfortunately, although they are neighbors sharing a common road across from each other, there is bad blood between MD Helicopters and Boeing right now.

The bridge over the road, connecting the two facilities, is roadblocked, isn't it?

That's a good picture of their relationship...

Quoted: Quoted: Anything you can't stand up in the back of just isn't big enough these days...   ~Dg84 (Pavehawk crew member) [PRV] Get ready for more headroom. [/PRV]

Oh dude... You don't know how ready I am.  MH47 here we come!  I hope...
~Dg84

Quoted: IIRC, didn't someone on this board (Ross?) mention that .mil didn't care for NOTAR due to the fact if the tail got shot up, those extra vent holes decreased performance?

The 160th SOAR(A) sampled NOTAR... note that Little Birds are not using NOTAR.  

I do believe Ross has discussed NOTAR before, yes.  His experience and insight make Ross a welcomed addition to any helicopter discussion.

Quoted: Quoted: Dick. ... Dick? ... Way to win friends and influence people in an intellectual discussion regarding complex, military vertical flight machinery. Just because one stick-jockey has an alleged 8K hours' grip on a cyclic doesn't make him a end-all fucking expert on rotorcraft military aircraft procurement. ... Wanna play here? I'd suggest you back up your juvenile repertoire with some facts - and perhaps a bit of tact and class. Otherwise, you can stuff your adolescence, disrespectful BS back where it came - Understand?

WW, don't sweat the trolls.  Your rep here is solid, and unfortunately for EarlyChowRecruit, his pot-shots say more about him than they do about you.

Whoa!, Can you feel the LUV!

The mission for this aircraft is entirely different than what most of the Huey's mission was in the Army.  For all practical purposes, the UH-1H has been replaced with the UH-60 in combat units.

The aircraft will be unarmed and requires no armor or anything.  It's a NON-COMBAT aircraft.  For example, a ARNG division with it's LUH's deploys to Iraq, the LUH unit actually stays home.  There is still some question as to how this is all going to work out in reality, but basically these aircraft will not be going to combat.  They are to be used here for admin, support, etc.

"TDA" is Table of Distribution and Allowances and is for units that will not deploy to combat.  Think of the LUH more as the commercial Jeep Cherokees, or Chrysler Intrepids that the MPs use, or the minimvan that's the CG's ride, or the flat-bead stake truck that you pick up from TMP to haul crap around in if you didn't have a bigger truck.  They are the equivelent of a staff car that flys and can do some VERY light hauling work in support of mainly Homeland Security and other requirements.  The BIG factor here in the selection is going to be cost.  Cost to buy, cost to operate.

Bell has the 210.  It's cheap to buy but operating cost per hour is it's weakness.

Dyncorp/Global is offering the Huey with the PT-6 engine and upgraded T/R.  That's a better enigne combination than the 210 has IMO, and the cost will be about 30% of the 210.  It's big problem is it won't be a zero time aircraft, and the operating cost probably will be slightly higher than the 210.

MD has the 920.  

Agusta/Westland is offering the A109.  

EADS (Eurocopter) is offering the EC-145.

I don't know who else is in on it.

The 210 probably has the inside track because of price, etc. but there's alot to be said for actually buying a modern aircraft that is cheaper to take care of.  I think the competition is going to break down to what the overall contract value is.  Logistics support, spares cost, cost per hour, predicted OR rate, etc.  I don't think the Army's going to buy the 210 just because it's a cheaper buy up front.  It's the back end of the cost, and how that marrys up with the way the Army's going to utilize and support them that is going matter.

Ross

I'm pulling for MD, only 'cause they're down the street from me.

WW, we need to meet and have a beer sometime.  I'm literally right down the street from Boeings main entrance.