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Posted: 2/17/2012 7:05:42 PM EDT
EXCLUSIVE: Pigs killed in military trauma training near Alpine


I like how the PETA rep stated that she knows FOR A FACT that no other military uses live animals during training.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:07:49 PM EDT
Can we do live tissue training with PETA members?
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:08:32 PM EDT
I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of the goat lab as being a current exercise for combat medics prior to deployment.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:10:02 PM EDT
I guess they could use welfare leeches for trauma training.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:11:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Capt-Planet:
I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of the goat lab as being a current exercise for combat medics prior to deployment.


Wait, shit, they were talking about pigs, not goats. My bad.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:11:45 PM EDT
Don't go to Ft. Bragg and watch 18Ds in training.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:14:43 PM EDT
YouTube the QuickClot OR Pig demo.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:15:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By trdvet:
Don't go to Ft. Bragg and watch 18Ds in training.


was fixing to post the same thing
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:16:49 PM EDT
That cunt can eat a dick, I would throw piglets in a meat grinder feet first to save American lives.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:18:58 PM EDT
The "use the simulated people dolls!" to a medic is akin to someone saying "why don't you just shoot him in the leg?" to a cop.

Retarded.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:21:54 PM EDT
Hell, to save the lives of our troops in combat, I'd drag horses to death behind a truck, and I LIKE horses!


CJ
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:24:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By c0t0d0s0:
Can we do live tissue training with PETA members?






Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:28:00 PM EDT
I can neither confirm nor deny that I have been through a similar course at a location near that one
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:30:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:37:13 PM EDT
There is no replacement for real tissue.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:39:08 PM EDT


They're anesthetized, then inured.

I don't see how it's any different than a slaughterhouse.

In fact, with the anesthetic, you could make the argument that the animal suffers less.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:39:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By nick89302:
There is no replacement for real tissue.


"White-trash military scum! They don't need to do this at all. They can use stuffed animals or bales of hay or something. This has NOTHING to do with "saving lives." No- I am not a vegetarian. Just got another reminder today about scummy military filth"

According to that genius "stuffed animals or bales of hay or something" is a replacement for real tissue.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:40:03 PM EDT
I hate PETA
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:41:11 PM EDT
I like to test the ballistics of various rounds on wild boar. I wish I got to do it more often.


I would kill 10000 pigs with a chainsaw if it would save one Marine or any human for that matter.


Human>animal
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:42:23 PM EDT
Why can't we use hippies?
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:45:34 PM EDT

ARGH!!!!

So fucking frustrated. I know first fucking hand this training saves lives.

I expect this sort of shitbag behaviour from Humane Society an PETA shitbags. I am torn on the .mil response.

I would like us as a nation to be proud of the training we give our medics and corpsmen. I want to shout it from the highest rooftops. When I see the military being very quiet and secretive, I wonder if that is the best strategy to ensure that as many medics as possible get this training.

Somebody mentioned 18D training, these guys are awesome. PETA is moving in down the road and has (had) billboards up for a while.




Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:47:18 PM EDT
Conlee said lifelike dummies that actually bleed and simulate the human anatomy are far more realistic for trauma training.


Nope, those plastic dummies suck for training. I trained on those and you can never get serious with them.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:52:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Fnkystuf:


They're anesthetized, then inured.

I don't see how it's any different than a slaughterhouse.

In fact, with the anesthetic, you could make the argument that the animal suffers less.


I am more alarmed that time and money are being wasted with pain meds for animals.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:53:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sparty:
Conlee said lifelike dummies that actually bleed and simulate the human anatomy are far more realistic for trauma training.


Nope, those plastic dummies suck for training. I trained on those and you can never get serious with them.


They're getting better, but they're still not the same as real tissue. They're helpful for practicing things to get the idea down, then go onto live tissue for the "real thing".
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 7:53:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stove_Pipe:
Originally Posted By Fnkystuf:


They're anesthetized, then inured.

I don't see how it's any different than a slaughterhouse.

In fact, with the anesthetic, you could make the argument that the animal suffers less.


I am more alarmed that time and money are being wasted with pain meds for animals.


It's to keep them from thrashing around, not to keep them from feeling pain.

Don't tell any PETA idiots that though.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 8:15:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
That cunt can eat a dick, I would throw piglets in a meat grinder feet first to save American lives.


THAT is a quotable quote!
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 8:18:43 PM EDT
I don't like the idea, but it works and saves lives, so I support it.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 8:22:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Capt-Planet:
I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of the goat lab as being a current exercise for combat medics prior to deployment.


A couple of our guys may have attended a course and may have said it was the best training they've ever been to for medical stuff. Some pretty high speed guys taught it too.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 8:23:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Capt-Planet:
Originally Posted By sparty:
Conlee said lifelike dummies that actually bleed and simulate the human anatomy are far more realistic for trauma training.


Nope, those plastic dummies suck for training. I trained on those and you can never get serious with them.


They're getting better, but they're still not the same as real tissue. They're helpful for practicing things to get the idea down, then go onto live tissue for the "real thing".


Yeah, we spent a ton of money of those things. Forgot who got the contract.

Like you said, nice for practicing the basics, but nothing like live tissue to prepare for the real world.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 8:29:54 PM EDT
i have watched this training save lives in action. fuck peta. until they come out here and lose legs and get shot in the gut they can shut the fuck up.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 8:32:35 PM EDT
Unecessary.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 8:34:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Unecessary.


Explain.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 8:37:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Frank_The_Tank:
Why can't we use hippies?

The stench is unbearable and so is their whining.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 8:42:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2012 8:43:55 PM EDT by El_Guapo]
Originally Posted By NUcadet07:
Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Unecessary.


Explain.


I have taken care of a trauma patient or two in my time. Breaking a pigs leg or shooting a pig does very little to simulate taking care of an actual human patient in an actual trauma situation. I'm not even saying its of *no* value, just that it is far better to learn "on the job" if you will. An internship in any major city trauma ER would do much more to prepare our combat medics than molesting a few pigs out in the desert.

ETA: and I bet our doctors and nurses would get as much out of the interaction as the combat medics would from a rotation through the ER
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 8:42:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 8:45:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Originally Posted By NUcadet07:
Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Unecessary.


Explain.


I have taken care of a trauma patient or two in my time. Breaking a pigs leg or shooting a pig does very little to simulate taking care of an actual human patient in an actual trauma situation. I'm not even saying its of *no* value, just that it is far better to learn "on the job" if you will. An internship in any major city trauma ER would do much more to prepare our combat medics than molesting a few pigs out in the desert.

ETA: and I bet our doctors and nurses would get as much out of the interaction as the combat medics would from a rotation through the ER


That requires a lot more of a logistical load than a goat or pig lab does.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 8:45:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
molesting a few pigs








Link Posted: 2/17/2012 8:48:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Originally Posted By NUcadet07:
Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Unecessary.


Explain.


I have taken care of a trauma patient or two in my time. Breaking a pigs leg or shooting a pig does very little to simulate taking care of an actual human patient in an actual trauma situation. I'm not even saying its of *no* value, just that it is far better to learn "on the job" if you will. An internship in any major city trauma ER would do much more to prepare our combat medics than molesting a few pigs out in the desert.

ETA: and I bet our doctors and nurses would get as much out of the interaction as the combat medics would from a rotation through the ER


10th MTN did just that before Operation Anaconda, their medics worked NYC EMS. That training is great, and should be implimented on a larger scale. However, it's not logistically feasible to do that, and when you have Guard and Reserve guys who need to be brought up to speed in a hurry, this training is very very good thing.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 8:49:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Originally Posted By NUcadet07:
Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Unecessary.


Explain.


I have taken care of a trauma patient or two in my time. Breaking a pigs leg or shooting a pig does very little to simulate taking care of an actual human patient in an actual trauma situation. I'm not even saying its of *no* value, just that it is far better to learn "on the job" if you will. An internship in any major city trauma ER would do much more to prepare our combat medics than molesting a few pigs out in the desert.

ETA: and I bet our doctors and nurses would get as much out of the interaction as the combat medics would from a rotation through the ER
battlefield =/= trama ER

Link Posted: 2/17/2012 8:54:31 PM EDT
Are child molesters closer to human than pigs? If so, use them!
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 8:55:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2012 8:56:43 PM EDT by Towely]
Originally Posted By Cypher15:

Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Originally Posted By NUcadet07:
Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Unecessary.


Explain.


I have taken care of a trauma patient or two in my time. Breaking a pigs leg or shooting a pig does very little to simulate taking care of an actual human patient in an actual trauma situation. I'm not even saying its of *no* value, just that it is far better to learn "on the job" if you will. An internship in any major city trauma ER would do much more to prepare our combat medics than molesting a few pigs out in the desert.

ETA: and I bet our doctors and nurses would get as much out of the interaction as the combat medics would from a rotation through the ER
battlefield =/= trama ER



Please, explain to me how shooting a pig is better than working on an actual human that was the victim of a shooting?

The only problem is you can't run that many people through ride along type training with ALS fire departments/ambulance companies.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 8:56:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2012 8:57:28 PM EDT by Capt-Planet]
Originally Posted By Cypher15:

Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Originally Posted By NUcadet07:
Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Unecessary.


Explain.


I have taken care of a trauma patient or two in my time. Breaking a pigs leg or shooting a pig does very little to simulate taking care of an actual human patient in an actual trauma situation. I'm not even saying its of *no* value, just that it is far better to learn "on the job" if you will. An internship in any major city trauma ER would do much more to prepare our combat medics than molesting a few pigs out in the desert.

ETA: and I bet our doctors and nurses would get as much out of the interaction as the combat medics would from a rotation through the ER
battlefield =/= trama ER



No, he has a point, but neither is an ideal situation. The Special Forces 18Ds do just what he's talking about. They have the funding and the time to do that though. Your 68Ws and Hospital Corpsmen don't have that luxury.

Working in an ER to gain experience takes time, and it takes a lot of planning, though when you're done you'll be pretty up to speed. It's pretty limited what you can do when you're new, though. I don't know an ER that will allow you to do some of the stuff medics do in a goat/pig lab, at least not right off the bat.

Doing a goat/pig lab can take as little planning as two weeks of real work (in the real world the planning takes a lot longer), and give a lot of medics/corpsmen a decent amount of good training on the cheap.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 8:56:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By c0t0d0s0:
Can we do live tissue training with PETA members?


I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 8:58:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cypher15:

Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Originally Posted By NUcadet07:
Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Unecessary.


Explain.


I have taken care of a trauma patient or two in my time. Breaking a pigs leg or shooting a pig does very little to simulate taking care of an actual human patient in an actual trauma situation. I'm not even saying its of *no* value, just that it is far better to learn "on the job" if you will. An internship in any major city trauma ER would do much more to prepare our combat medics than molesting a few pigs out in the desert.

ETA: and I bet our doctors and nurses would get as much out of the interaction as the combat medics would from a rotation through the ER
battlefield =/= trama ER



Yes, but even more so: Stuck pig =/= battlefield trauma

Logistically it's likely easier than you think. We have rotators through the ER all the time. Most administrators and ER physicians are happy to help in the Lear ing process. Seriously, even working in a trauma hospital in a combat zone is going to be more educational than capping a few pigs behind the barn

Link Posted: 2/17/2012 9:01:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cypher15:

Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Originally Posted By NUcadet07:
Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Unecessary.


Explain.


I have taken care of a trauma patient or two in my time. Breaking a pigs leg or shooting a pig does very little to simulate taking care of an actual human patient in an actual trauma situation. I'm not even saying its of *no* value, just that it is far better to learn "on the job" if you will. An internship in any major city trauma ER would do much more to prepare our combat medics than molesting a few pigs out in the desert.

ETA: and I bet our doctors and nurses would get as much out of the interaction as the combat medics would from a rotation through the ER
battlefield =/= trama ER



I beg to differ, have you heard of the pleasant Midwestern city known as Detroit (or Flint)?
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 9:09:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By atomicferret:
EXCLUSIVE: Pigs killed in military trauma training near Alpine


I like how the PETA rep stated that she knows FOR A FACT that no other military uses live animals during training.


Yes, some countries use live people instead
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 9:09:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Capt-Planet:
I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of the goat lab as being a current exercise for combat medics prior to deployment.


Me neither.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 9:11:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2012 9:13:35 PM EDT by Capt-Planet]
Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Yes, but even more so: Stuck pig =/= battlefield trauma

Logistically it's likely easier than you think. We have rotators through the ER all the time. Most administrators and ER physicians are happy to help in the Lear ing process. Seriously, even working in a trauma hospital in a combat zone is going to be more educational than capping a few pigs behind the barn


Well, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you. ER time can be done easily if everything works, but it can just as quickly be a pain in the ass to get all your guys through with enough experience. With pigs you get a consistent amount of experience spread through each person you have, and it will happen when you plan it.

Additionally, a decent amount of the training in this is focused around bleeding control, and learning what works and what doesn't. That means allowing bleeds, then finding out exactly how much pressure it takes to stop it, or how tight the TK needs to be, or what have you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but many patients coming into the ER will already have some manner of interventions with regards to their major bleeds. Yeah, you'll get some people still leaking, but will you let a medic learn how to control it on his own on a human patient? Especially when the best way for him to learn his mistakes is because the patient expires? Not going to happen.


Plus, there's all the surgical interventions that I'm pretty sure aren't allowed at civilian ERs by an EMT.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 9:12:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2012 9:13:12 PM EDT by Cavscouty]
Originally Posted By sparty:
Originally Posted By Cypher15:

Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Originally Posted By NUcadet07:
Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Unecessary.


Explain.


I have taken care of a trauma patient or two in my time. Breaking a pigs leg or shooting a pig does very little to simulate taking care of an actual human patient in an actual trauma situation. I'm not even saying its of *no* value, just that it is far better to learn "on the job" if you will. An internship in any major city trauma ER would do much more to prepare our combat medics than molesting a few pigs out in the desert.

ETA: and I bet our doctors and nurses would get as much out of the interaction as the combat medics would from a rotation through the ER
battlefield =/= trama ER



I beg to differ, have you heard of the pleasant Midwestern city known as Detroit (or Flint)?

IED injuries are a little different than your normal run-of-the-mill ghetto shooting. Try again and try not to sound so stupid next time.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 9:15:10 PM EDT
All the programs mentioned previously are already in practice. The goat/pig program is to simulate field conditions. Can't do that with a person.
Link Posted: 2/17/2012 9:17:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cavscouty:
Originally Posted By sparty:
Originally Posted By Cypher15:

Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Originally Posted By NUcadet07:
Originally Posted By El_Guapo:
Unecessary.


Explain.


I have taken care of a trauma patient or two in my time. Breaking a pigs leg or shooting a pig does very little to simulate taking care of an actual human patient in an actual trauma situation. I'm not even saying its of *no* value, just that it is far better to learn "on the job" if you will. An internship in any major city trauma ER would do much more to prepare our combat medics than molesting a few pigs out in the desert.

ETA: and I bet our doctors and nurses would get as much out of the interaction as the combat medics would from a rotation through the ER
battlefield =/= trama ER



I beg to differ, have you heard of the pleasant Midwestern city known as Detroit (or Flint)?

IED injuries are a little different than your normal run-of-the-mill ghetto shooting. Try again and try not to sound so stupid next time.


A family friend was a medic in the Vietnam War. When he came home he became a paramedic. He's told me personally that he's been on countless calls in the city that rival or surpass the 'fucked up' he saw in Vietnam.

Not sure what you're so butthurt over.
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