In this morning's Boston Globe:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/08/03/brockton_traffic_argument_ends_in_tragedy/

Sorry for the liberal-style headline, but that's how the gungrabbers are going to spin it. I'm not sure I even have a defense for this one, other than it is an anomaly and not representative of the gun community in general.

The article says he had a valid handgun license. This could be a license which allows him to own and use handguns at the range, or an actual license to carry. In Massachusetts, they are both referred to as "LTC", but the reason for issuance would determine whether the holder is allowed to carry routinely, or only when travelling between, home, shooting range, hunting area, storage, etc.

was he taking  up 2 parking spaces?

Temporary insanity. It's been awful hot round those parts lately too....it wears on ya.

You never know who you are fucking with.

Just another reason Boston sucks

These things happen.

where's that guy with the 'Kiss My Ass' plate?

Quoted: You never know who you are fucking with.

+1
Maybe drivers will show each other a bit more respect now.

I think the title of the thread describes pretty well what happened...

Guys get into a altercation on the road.  They then go their seperate ways.

Old guy "made up his mind right there that he had to do something"
Old guy drops wife off at the bus/train station.
Old guy drives around to find the other guy.
Old guy rams his car into the driver's door of the other guy.
Old guy shoots the other guy 4 times in the head.
Old guy speeds off.

I don't think the 'liberals' need to spin this at all...  It is pretty clear that the guy hunt him down and killed him...

i'd bet a buck that other cat wished mass. "allowed" him to carry too right before that went down.

sad either way.

probably a good thing to not piss off other drivers, including shooting bottle rockets at them or throwing eggs in their face

Why is it the authorities can apprehend some old guy in this case, but never seem to catch up with the drive-by shooters of urban fame?  I have a friend who lost his daughter 12 years ago in a drive-by; she got caught in the cross fire.  The authorities never did find her killer...

And what's with the media showing a picture of the shooter in hand cuffs?  When is the last time you saw a picture like that in the paper?  The spin begins.

Quoted: i'd bet a buck that other cat wished mass. "allowed" him to carry too right before that went down. sad either way.

Dead guy apparantly got out of his car and was threatening the shooter in the first altercation - not saying that anything was justified, just that two people with hot tempers is a bad mix.

The "Journalism" in that story was pathetic.  

Quoted: Why is it the authorities can apprehend some old guy in this case, but never seem to catch up with the drive-by shooters of urban fame?  I have a friend who lost his daughter 12 years ago in a drive-by; she got caught in the cross fire.  The authorities never did find her killer... And what's with the media showing a picture of the shooter in hand cuffs?  When is the last time you saw a picture like that in the paper?  The spin begins.

Drive-bys typically happen pretty fast...

This makes it sound like he cut across traffic, slammed into the guy's car, then shot him.  Cutting across traffic is going to stop people.  Getting into an accident is going to draw a lot of attention to you.  Top it off with stationary gun shots, where people are getting your plates...  Sounds pretty easy...

A drive by is going to be faster, no one stopping, and certainly if they get caught, no one saying "Yeah, that was me", like the guy in this case.

If the facts are true this guy is a murderer and should get the chair.

Yeah, bogz, I know you're right.  I'm just venting because either some U.S. Senator from California or New York will hold this case up as an, "I told you so!"

Based on my experience, most folks in the neighborhoods know who the punks are pulling the trigger, they are just to damn scared to point a finger.  They are survivors of the first order.

Quoted: Just another reason Boston sucks

Brockton

Drove through there the other day.  Most of it is a dump.  Damm right I was packing.

Maybe I just missed it, but where in the article does it say anything about him being a "licensed handgun owner"?

Since when do you have to have a special license to be a handgun owner? I thought you just had to be 21?

I could understand them saying he was a licensed concealed carry holder.

The reason I ask this, is I was on another forum yesterday where some people were talking about a guy who was arrested for something or other and how they found materials for making "explosives" in his house. Well, turns out those materials were reloading supplies . Then one poster on that forum said that they were perfectly legal to own as long as you had a gun license .

So, now that's twice that I've heard that in two days. WTF? This is the USA, you don't need a special license to own a gun or reloading supplies...at least not yet...

Quoted: You never know who you are fucking with.

+1.

Best to just not fuck with anyone.

Quoted: Quoted: Maybe I just missed it, but where in the article does it say anything about him being a "licensed handgun owner"? Since when do you have to have a special license to be a handgun owner? I thought you just had to be 21? I could understand them saying he was a licensed concealed carry holder. The reason I ask this, is I was on another forum yesterday where some people were talking about a guy who was arrested for something or other and how they found materials for making "explosives" in his house. Well, turns out those materials were reloading supplies . Then one poster on that forum said that they were perfectly legal to own as long as you had a gun license . So, now that's twice that I've heard that in two days. WTF? This is the USA, you don't need a special license to own a gun or reloading supplies...at least not yet... You need a pistol permit to possess a pistol in New York, whether you carry it or not. I suspect MA similarly requires you to have  a license to buy a pistol, they may have licenses that just let you possess, like for target shooting, or other licenses that let you carrry the pistol ccw style. NY is sort of like that. If you try to fly out of NY with a handgun they will check to see if you have a permit, if you don't they will arrest you.

Wow, that's just fucked up.

Quoted: Quoted: Just another reason Boston sucks Brockton Drove through there the other day.  Most of it is a dump.  Damm right I was packing.

Ok your right there are just too many places in and around that area suck. Lets go for the whole state but not including our members.

Just another reason Massachusetts sucks

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Maybe I just missed it, but where in the article does it say anything about him being a "licensed handgun owner"? Since when do you have to have a special license to be a handgun owner? I thought you just had to be 21? I could understand them saying he was a licensed concealed carry holder. The reason I ask this, is I was on another forum yesterday where some people were talking about a guy who was arrested for something or other and how they found materials for making "explosives" in his house. Well, turns out those materials were reloading supplies . Then one poster on that forum said that they were perfectly legal to own as long as you had a gun license . So, now that's twice that I've heard that in two days. WTF? This is the USA, you don't need a special license to own a gun or reloading supplies...at least not yet... You need a pistol permit to possess a pistol in New York, whether you carry it or not. I suspect MA similarly requires you to have  a license to buy a pistol, they may have licenses that just let you possess, like for target shooting, or other licenses that let you carrry the pistol ccw style. NY is sort of like that. If you try to fly out of NY with a handgun they will check to see if you have a permit, if you don't they will arrest you. Wow, that's just fucked up.

"This isn't Russia. Is this Russia? This isn't Russia."

ETA It'll really piss you off to know that a NYS pistol permit is may-issue, NOT shall-issue, so they can deny it if they feel like it (some counties just deny all of them).  Also, a pistol license costs upwards of $100 everything said and done, and can take up to 6 months to process.

Only "good things" are that it's (currently) a "life" license that doesn't expire and it also serves as a concealed carry license, that is, if the government feels that it wants to grant you the privelege of carrying or even owning a handgun at all.

Communist territory, what can one say, really.

It's not uncommon for our HS football team to have a police escort in that town, and driving in MA will make you want to start a nuclear war let alone shoot someone.

Quoted: Just another reason Boston sucks

huge +1

I just love the way the Boston Globe writes stories.  

damn, sounds like two relatively decent americans lost...

Quoted: It's not uncommon for our HS football team to have a police escort in that town, and driving in MA will make you want to start a nuclear war let alone shoot someone.

+1

Massachusetts drivers are the worst in the US.

it's the victim's fault.



he should have been carrying!

democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4249648&mesg_id=4249648



Junkdrawer  (1000+ posts)      Wed Aug-03-05 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. An armed society is a polite society...
*sarcasm*

ComerPerro  (1000+ posts)      Wed Aug-03-05 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
14. This is why concealed carry is such a good idea
*sarcasm*

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just another reason Boston sucks Brockton Drove through there the other day.  Most of it is a dump.  Damm right I was packing. Ok your right there are just too many places in and around that area suck. Lets go for the whole state but not including our members. Just another reason Massachusetts sucks

Look at it this way, the good gunowners and rational thinking (I.e. NON-LIBERAL) residents of Mass are fighting the good fight!  We are like a DMZ.  If we all pack up and leave, you know where the gun grabbers are headed next.  A neighborhood near you.  

Quoted: I just love the way the Boston Globe writes stories.

+1.  While I am completely against the unlawful shooting, there's more in the victims background than we are being told.

Quoted: These things happen.

You don't get  tired of saying this in every thread?

Quoted: ETA It'll really piss you off to know that a NYS pistol permit is may-issue, NOT shall-issue, so they can deny it if they feel like it (some counties just deny all of them).  Also, a pistol license costs upwards of $100 everything said and done, and can take up to 6 months to process.

Try Nassau County here on Long Island: $299 ($200 for permit plus $99 for fingerprint fees, etc.).  Good for five years and then you go through it all again.

Another psychopath fucking it up for us lawful firearm owners. $5 says we'll see arfcom members making excuses for the shooter before the day is over.

Fiirst off that is massachusettes, getting a permit of any kiind is very hard. This is not liike the new "ccw"'s that have sprung up in red states, it's more like the impossable to get NYC permits. Second, people with guns do kill other people, liscensed or not, it just fucking happens. But for each killer, that the paper prints they are never going to print the story of the person who used theirs for self defense, not part of their agenda. SO i guess the best thing to do is ban all guns and permits so we can be as crime free as say NYC or Washington DC.................

Quoted: democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4249648&mesg_id=4249648 Junkdrawer  (1000+ posts)      Wed Aug-03-05 10:52 AM Response to Reply #5 10. An armed society is a polite society... *sarcasm* ComerPerro  (1000+ posts)      Wed Aug-03-05 11:00 AM Response to Original message 14. This is why concealed carry is such a good idea *sarcasm*

Yeah, 1 incident in 15 years they can point to.  Let's get rid of cars too.

Just to respond to the questions regarding firearms licenses in MA...

There are several types. I won't try to name them, because it seems to change all the time. But in general, you need a license to own any type of modern (non-black powerder) firearm. I'm not sure what the rules are for black powder. What was (and maybe still is), called an Firearms ID Card, will let you buy, transport, and use rifles and shotguns. For handguns, there is a separate license. Depending on how it is issued, it could be only for transporting and using all gun types (handguns, rifles, shotguns), but not routine carry. My license is Class A License to Carry Firearms and has the purpose as "All Lawful Purposes". This means I can own and use handguns, rifles, and shotguns, including high capacity (more than whatever number of rounds they specify -- probably 10), and I can carry concealed.

My experience and the experience of my friends and acquantances is that these licenses are easy to get. A background check which takes a number of weeks along with an NRA or equivalent safety course are required.

What's nice about the "All Lawful Purposes" or "Personal Protection" designation, is that you are allowed to carry concealed almost anywhere. That is in contrast the permit that I held years ago in Georgia where you could carry concealed, but the list of places where you couldn't carry made it almost worthless. I don't know if Georgia has changed since then, but even with a permit, you could be charged with a misdemeanor (spelling) for carrying at a "public gathering". One definition that applied was anywhere that alcohol is served, including a restaraunt.

Massachusetts is a "may issue" state. If we have to live in a place where licenses are required, I don't have a real problem with the "may issue" over the "shall issue" as long as the person responsible for issuing licenses actually issues them. The cops know who the good guys and bad guys are, and I don't mind giving them some discretion. It would be nice if there was an appeal process though, in case the local cop has a personal problem with you and denies you.

As far as I know, there you cannot carry cowboy-style (open display) in MA. I wouldn't do it anyway, because I guarantee you'll get  jacked up all the time as people call 911 and report "man with a gun".

-RJ

Quoted: ETA It'll really piss you off to know that a NYS pistol permit is may-issue, NOT shall-issue, so they can deny it if they feel like it (some counties just deny all of them).  Also, a pistol license costs upwards of $100 everything said and done, and can take up to 6 months to process. Only "good things" are that it's (currently) a "life" license that doesn't expire and it also serves as a concealed carry license, that is, if the government feels that it wants to grant you the privelege of carrying or even owning a handgun at all.

Thats not really true. NYS has residential permits and it has carry permits. Some counties are tight with the carry permits, or overstamp them with "hunting and target practice only". I don't know of any county that (as you claim) outright doesn't issue them in NYS, as I have heard happens in Cali. Unless you have a disqualifying conviction in NYS, outside of NYC you'll get your permit; whether or not it has the overstamp depends on the county.In NYC you'll probably be limited to a residential permit.

Quoted: Quoted: You never know who you are fucking with. +1 Maybe drivers will show each other a bit more respect now.

EXACTLY!!!!!

Since I travel between Florida and Maryland I get to see both sides of the CCW spectrum. I have noticed an extremely hard line between the two. When in Maryland I notice drivers are much more mouthier and tend to act out alot more than when I am in Florida. I know this is because most of the shit I tolerate in Baltimore would get you on the wrong side of a gun anywhere CCW is legal. I am so glad the state has taken the privelage of making the CCW decision for me. I would hate to run out of ammo prior to my lunch hour!!

Quoted: Quoted: You never know who you are fucking with. +1

thats what I was taught
you never know if the runt you "shoulder" aside on the sidewalk
is the head instructor for the martial arts school around the corner
(the teacher was talking about Taiwan, but it applies everywhere)

Licensed driver hunts down motorist and runs him over..

Same fucking deal.. Different weapon...

The article I read said the shooter recently started taking meds for depression.

Quoted: was he taking  up 2 parking spaces?

"Louis McPhee, 47, the manager of a car wash across the street,"

That explains it.  

Quoted: The article I read said the shooter recently started taking meds for depression.

It's funny how the "depressed" don't do this until they are "treated". In this case treated with 2 "meds". I can't help but wonder if a medical professional was monitering any changes or reaction to the "meds" or just throwing more "meds" on the problem.

It happened again yesterday:

LYNN (AP) -- A mother and her 17-year-old son were shot and seriously injured Wednesday in what authorities say is the second violent incident of road rage in Massachusetts in two days. Greg Umphrey and his mother, Linda, 52, of Lynn, were shot after an altercation with another driver on the Lynnway, police said. William Green, 55, approached the Umphrey's car after it stopped and fired shots into the passenger side, said Lt. David Brown. Green then fled in his 2005 Subaru Forester, but was arrested about 30 minutes later after police spotted his car on Route 1 in Peabody. Brown said Greg Umphrey took down Green's license plate and was able to give it to police when they arrived on the scene of the shooting near 95 Nahant St. The first officer to arrive found Greg Umphrey and his mother outside of their car, bleeding from gunshot wounds, Brown said. The pair were listed in fair condition at Massachusetts General Hospital late Wednesday. Police say Linda Umphrey was shot in the shoulder area, while her son was shot in the back. Brown said police were interviewing the Umphreys and witnesses to determine what sparked the road rage. "It's very frustrating," Brown said. "If people could just take three seconds and just take a deep breath." Green was charged with two counts of armed assault with intent to murder, two counts of assault and battery with a dangerous weapon, and discharging a firearm within 500 feet of a dwelling. He is scheduled to be arraigned Thursday in Lynn District Court. Police said Green is licensed to carry a firearm. They would not say what kind of a gun was used in the shootings. The incident marks the second time in as many days that a confrontation between drivers has resulted in violence. On Tuesday, a 60-year-old man was arrested in Brockton after he allegedly shot and killed a young father who was lifting his infant daughter from his car. Walter Bishop pleaded innocent to first-degree murder in the killing of 27-year-old Sandro Andrade and was being held without bail. "Don't engage people," said Brown. "If you have a problem, get on the cell phone, call police, take a license plate, but definitely do not engage people in a confrontation."

Quoted: It happened again yesterday: LYNN (AP) -- A mother and her 17-year-old son were shot and seriously injured Wednesday in what authorities say is the second violent incident of road rage in Massachusetts in two days. Greg Umphrey and his mother, Linda, 52, of Lynn, were shot after an altercation with another driver on the Lynnway, police said. William Green, 55, approached the Umphrey's car after it stopped and fired shots into the passenger side, said Lt. David Brown. Green then fled in his 2005 Subaru Forester, but was arrested about 30 minutes later after police spotted his car on Route 1 in Peabody. Brown said Greg Umphrey took down Green's license plate and was able to give it to police when they arrived on the scene of the shooting near 95 Nahant St. The first officer to arrive found Greg Umphrey and his mother outside of their car, bleeding from gunshot wounds, Brown said. The pair were listed in fair condition at Massachusetts General Hospital late Wednesday. Police say Linda Umphrey was shot in the shoulder area, while her son was shot in the back. Brown said police were interviewing the Umphreys and witnesses to determine what sparked the road rage. "It's very frustrating," Brown said. "If people could just take three seconds and just take a deep breath." Green was charged with two counts of armed assault with intent to murder, two counts of assault and battery with a dangerous weapon, and discharging a firearm within 500 feet of a dwelling. He is scheduled to be arraigned Thursday in Lynn District Court. Police said Green is licensed to carry a firearm. They would not say what kind of a gun was used in the shootings. The incident marks the second time in as many days that a confrontation between drivers has resulted in violence. On Tuesday, a 60-year-old man was arrested in Brockton after he allegedly shot and killed a young father who was lifting his infant daughter from his car. Walter Bishop pleaded innocent to first-degree murder in the killing of 27-year-old Sandro Andrade and was being held without bail. "Don't engage people," said Brown. "If you have a problem, get on the cell phone, call police, take a license plate, but definitely do not engage people in a confrontation."

Well shit.

Quoted: Quoted: I just love the way the Boston Globe writes stories.   +1.  While I am completely against the unlawful shooting, there's more in the victims background than we are being told.

So, it is ok to just kill him since there is more in his background?

Semms like a Murder. Guy came after the immigrant and killed him. Does not matter who it was, you have to look at the situation as two subjects, not people. Then see which one was wrong. The old man should go to jail.

I can't understand this.  Massachussets has the most strict gun control laws in the country.  How could something like this happen?    

Kicking in a door and murdering a whole family is not news in Boston. But if a couple of human turds kill a couple of assholes on the highway it’s news for a month.

I do not understand the equation of news-worthiness for the east coast.

Maybe it’s just the quantity of asshole drivers that suddenly get concerned for their safety.