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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/6/2005 7:34:42 PM EDT
Rather than defend Bush, simply ask them if they'd be fine with living under a Federal Government with the infastructure in place that can put troops on the streets at a moments notice, as well as enforce manditory evacutations, and non consentual internment. All this, without the official invitation of the local and state authorities...?

Sometimes, freedom is a bitch. Let's not give it up because in some extreme cases the lack of it would be more efficient. The Soviets wouldn't have defeated the Nazis without communism (ability to endure and replenish manpower losses), but this doesn't make communism a good thing...



Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:41:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
Rather than defend Bush, simply ask them if they'd be fine with living under a Federal Government with the infastructure in place that can put troops on the streets at a moments notice, as well as enforce manditory evacutations, and non consentual internment. All this, without the official invitation of the local and state authorities...?

Sometimes, freedom is a bitch. Let's not give it up because in some extreme cases the lack of it would be more efficient. The Soviets wouldn't have defeated the Nazis without communism (ability to endure and replenish manpower losses), but this doesn't make communism a good thing...






The Soviets (Communism) defeated the Nazis? Are you sure it didn't have anything to do with the United States and harsh winter conditions in the USSR? Maybe my history is more rusty than I thought.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:49:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jnewson:

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
Rather than defend Bush, simply ask them if they'd be fine with living under a Federal Government with the infastructure in place that can put troops on the streets at a moments notice, as well as enforce manditory evacutations, and non consentual internment. All this, without the official invitation of the local and state authorities...?

Sometimes, freedom is a bitch. Let's not give it up because in some extreme cases the lack of it would be more efficient. The Soviets wouldn't have defeated the Nazis without communism (ability to endure and replenish manpower losses), but this doesn't make communism a good thing...






The Soviets (Communism) defeated the Nazis? Are you sure it didn't have anything to do with the United States and harsh winter conditions in the USSR? Maybe my history is more rusty than I thought.



They did defeat the Nazi's on the Eastern Front. Because of the size of their war machine and willingness to absorb casualties they were able to occupy a large portion of the German war effort. If they had been sitting it out, entirely, we probably would have had to fight the Nazi's on the shores of England . . . if we had gotten that far.

I think we would have won regardless . . . but it is better that THEY got to take the casualties in grinding down the Wermacht, not us. We had it bad enough.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:56:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jame_Retief:

Originally Posted By jnewson:

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
Rather than defend Bush, simply ask them if they'd be fine with living under a Federal Government with the infastructure in place that can put troops on the streets at a moments notice, as well as enforce manditory evacutations, and non consentual internment. All this, without the official invitation of the local and state authorities...?

Sometimes, freedom is a bitch. Let's not give it up because in some extreme cases the lack of it would be more efficient. The Soviets wouldn't have defeated the Nazis without communism (ability to endure and replenish manpower losses), but this doesn't make communism a good thing...






The Soviets (Communism) defeated the Nazis? Are you sure it didn't have anything to do with the United States and harsh winter conditions in the USSR? Maybe my history is more rusty than I thought.



They did defeat the Nazi's on the Eastern Front. Because of the size of their war machine and willingness to absorb casualties they were able to occupy a large portion of the German war effort. If they had been sitting it out, entirely, we probably would have had to fight the Nazi's on the shores of England . . . if we had gotten that far.

I think we would have won regardless . . . but it is better that THEY got to take the casualties in grinding down the Wermacht, not us. We had it bad enough.



Don't forget about the harsh winter conditions.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 8:01:32 PM EDT
Agreed.

However, I'd also point out that other good "arguments" are, "The school busses that are now SCRAP METAL SHOULD have been mobilized as (Thanks Mac) their DISASTER PLAN specifies to bus out the poor/others w/o transportation, etc... so the MAYOR is a DEMOCRAT, why then did he NOT mobilize those busses??? (You MIGHT even suggest that if he did THAT, the busses (older, I'm guessing) would THEN be "safe" somewhere in Northern LA, instead of "ruined" in NO under 8+' of h2o and who knows what. THEN he couldn't get $$ for THAT to get NEW busses - but that MIGHT be "too far") mostly I just think he was figuring it'd happen under "someone else's watch"... I always ASSUME the WORST will occur under MY watch, and plan accordingly, if effort is wasted, I may get a "black eye" for "overreacting" but then I can always "gloat" when the worst DOES happen & my actions saved "X".

Also the people WERE TOLD to GET OUT OR "you're on your own"... so WTF???

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 8:08:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 8:08:45 PM EDT by gordon_freeman]
Well, liberals can be defeated with NO in some respects... Gun sales for personal defense have probably gone up through the roof, and where do you turn to when the government is unable to protect you? Your gun safe if you are lucky, your maker if you're not.

But the criticisms of a stretched thin nation, poor planning, and structural organization issues will be where all the yapping will be taking place in the coming weeks. I personally don't think race played an issue in the NO crisis, but competency, hell yes! Emergency management is a full on career that some pursue for their life times. I have just one thing to say to the FEMA director... Life is a tough teacher, it gives the test before it teaches the lesson! Meh.

Link Posted: 9/9/2005 6:23:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gordon_freeman:
Well, liberals can be defeated with NO in some respects... Gun sales for personal defense have probably gone up through the roof, and where do you turn to when the government is unable to protect you? Your gun safe if you are lucky, your maker if you're not.

But the criticisms of a stretched thin nation, poor planning, and structural organization issues will be where all the yapping will be taking place in the coming weeks. I personally don't think race played an issue in the NO crisis, but competency, hell yes! Emergency management is a full on career that some pursue for their life times. I have just one thing to say to the FEMA director... Life is a tough teacher, it gives the test before it teaches the lesson! Meh.




I think it had LESS to do w/race/poor people than it had to do w/a LOT of folks were taking VACATION at the time, and only the "underlings" were "manning the phones" (and unable/unwilling to MAKE a decision). Incompetance (on the local, state AND Federal levels). And short-sightedness of LOCAL/State/Feds over the last SEVERAL years. Mismanagement of the AREA (ecologically) on ALL 3 levels over MANY years (causing the area to "sink" more. etc...

Not saying it was ZERO factor... I don't know. Does seem a tad "odd", but probably just a coincidence... (and it was more the holiday weekend and FEMA head incompetance.) Though, IMO, it MIGHT possibly have something to do w/it being heavilly Democratic area. Maybe I'm just being "touchy"... but seemed like Bush spent a LOT of time in MS (Heavilly Republican), and not so much in NO/LA.... maybe just because NO/LA was such a mess/uncomfortable? And maybe I just didn't SEE as much, or maybe the news just didn't REPORT it as much. It's just something I noticed. And it seems like not a very good move, IMO, as it just GIVES the Dims [sic] ammo. And it is NOT a good idea to give the OPPOSITION ammo!

I know Bush LIKES to schmooze his supporters... it's just not so bright in THIS situation, IMO. (IF he ACTUALLY spent LESS tinme w/folks in NOLA - or Houston w/folks FROM NOLA - you know what I'm saying. IF he did, they'll get AROUND to nailing him for it. I KNOW it's MUCH nicer spending time w/folks who LIKE you... but he's the leader of even the ones who do NOT like him (and COULD pick up a few fence-sitters) stranger things have happened.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 6:35:25 PM EDT
Too bad you have to lie and spin to win.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 6:38:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Schmeghead:
Too bad you have to lie and spin to win.



IDIOT
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 6:46:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 6:47:15 PM EDT by lu380]

Originally Posted By Schmeghead:
Too bad you have to lie and spin to win.



The only reason that all of this came up in the first place is because the attack was initiated by the likes of Pelosi and gang. If they hadn't started this, the Republicans would not have to be on the defensive and probably wouldn't have even brought any of this stuff up. What do you expect them to do, sit there and take it without responding?
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:17:35 PM EDT

I'd sure like to know why those "poor" people didn't have the means to get outta dodge when Katrina hit. I mean, they always manage to bus them to the voting booths on election day!

Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:19:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 8:20:09 PM EDT by Specop_007]

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
Rather than defend Bush, simply ask them if they'd be fine with living under a Federal Government with the infastructure in place that can put troops on the streets at a moments notice, as well as enforce manditory evacutations, and non consentual internment. All this, without the official invitation of the local and state authorities...?

Sometimes, freedom is a bitch. Let's not give it up because in some extreme cases the lack of it would be more efficient. The Soviets wouldn't have defeated the Nazis without communism (ability to endure and replenish manpower losses), but this doesn't make communism a good thing...






You realize we already live with that Federal Government you speak of right?
EDIT
Well, very damned nearly.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:26:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jame_Retief:

Originally Posted By jnewson:

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
Rather than defend Bush, simply ask them if they'd be fine with living under a Federal Government with the infastructure in place that can put troops on the streets at a moments notice, as well as enforce manditory evacutations, and non consentual internment. All this, without the official invitation of the local and state authorities...?

Sometimes, freedom is a bitch. Let's not give it up because in some extreme cases the lack of it would be more efficient. The Soviets wouldn't have defeated the Nazis without communism (ability to endure and replenish manpower losses), but this doesn't make communism a good thing...



The Soviets (Communism) defeated the Nazis? Are you sure it didn't have anything to do with the United States and harsh winter conditions in the USSR? Maybe my history is more rusty than I thought.



They did defeat the Nazi's on the Eastern Front. Because of the size of their war machine and willingness to absorb casualties they were able to occupy a large portion of the German war effort. If they had been sitting it out, entirely, we probably would have had to fight the Nazi's on the shores of England . . . if we had gotten that far.

I think we would have won regardless . . . but it is better that THEY got to take the casualties in grinding down the Wermacht, not us. We had it bad enough.



It is easy to forget if the Nazis had not acted like… well Nazis they could have conquered the Soviet Union. In the Baltic States and Ukraine the invading Germans were greeted as liberators the Germans then threw this away in the Ukraine by committing wholesale atrocities. If the Germans had acted like liberators they could have brought Stalin down with in the first year and probably got a peace with a greatly reduced Russia.

The German failure on the Eastern Front had more to do with a wasted opportunity and little to do with the peoples love of Communism.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:28:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kacer:

Originally Posted By gordon_freeman:
Well, liberals can be defeated with NO in some respects... Gun sales for personal defense have probably gone up through the roof, and where do you turn to when the government is unable to protect you? Your gun safe if you are lucky, your maker if you're not.

But the criticisms of a stretched thin nation, poor planning, and structural organization issues will be where all the yapping will be taking place in the coming weeks. I personally don't think race played an issue in the NO crisis, but competency, hell yes! Emergency management is a full on career that some pursue for their life times. I have just one thing to say to the FEMA director... Life is a tough teacher, it gives the test before it teaches the lesson! Meh.




I think it had LESS to do w/race/poor people than it had to do w/a LOT of folks were taking VACATION at the time, and only the "underlings" were "manning the phones" (and unable/unwilling to MAKE a decision). Incompetance (on the local, state AND Federal levels). And short-sightedness of LOCAL/State/Feds over the last SEVERAL years. Mismanagement of the AREA (ecologically) on ALL 3 levels over MANY years (causing the area to "sink" more. etc...

Not saying it was ZERO factor... I don't know. Does seem a tad "odd", but probably just a coincidence... (and it was more the holiday weekend and FEMA head incompetance.) Though, IMO, it MIGHT possibly have something to do w/it being heavilly Democratic area. Maybe I'm just being "touchy"... but seemed like Bush spent a LOT of time in MS (Heavilly Republican), and not so much in NO/LA.... maybe just because NO/LA was such a mess/uncomfortable? And maybe I just didn't SEE as much, or maybe the news just didn't REPORT it as much. It's just something I noticed. And it seems like not a very good move, IMO, as it just GIVES the Dims [sic] ammo. And it is NOT a good idea to give the OPPOSITION ammo!

I know Bush LIKES to schmooze his supporters... it's just not so bright in THIS situation, IMO. (IF he ACTUALLY spent LESS tinme w/folks in NOLA - or Houston w/folks FROM NOLA - you know what I'm saying. IF he did, they'll get AROUND to nailing him for it. I KNOW it's MUCH nicer spending time w/folks who LIKE you... but he's the leader of even the ones who do NOT like him (and COULD pick up a few fence-sitters) stranger things have happened.



Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:29:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kacer:

Originally Posted By gordon_freeman:
Well, liberals can be defeated with NO in some respects... Gun sales for personal defense have probably gone up through the roof, and where do you turn to when the government is unable to protect you? Your gun safe if you are lucky, your maker if you're not.

But the criticisms of a stretched thin nation, poor planning, and structural organization issues will be where all the yapping will be taking place in the coming weeks. I personally don't think race played an issue in the NO crisis, but competency, hell yes! Emergency management is a full on career that some pursue for their life times. I have just one thing to say to the FEMA director... Life is a tough teacher, it gives the test before it teaches the lesson! Meh.




I think it had LESS to do w/race/poor people than it had to do w/a LOT of folks were taking VACATION at the time, and only the "underlings" were "manning the phones" (and unable/unwilling to MAKE a decision). Incompetance (on the local, state AND Federal levels). And short-sightedness of LOCAL/State/Feds over the last SEVERAL years. Mismanagement of the AREA (ecologically) on ALL 3 levels over MANY years (causing the area to "sink" more. etc...

Not saying it was ZERO factor... I don't know. Does seem a tad "odd", but probably just a coincidence... (and it was more the holiday weekend and FEMA head incompetance.) Though, IMO, it MIGHT possibly have something to do w/it being heavilly Democratic area. Maybe I'm just being "touchy"... but seemed like Bush spent a LOT of time in MS (Heavilly Republican), and not so much in NO/LA.... maybe just because NO/LA was such a mess/uncomfortable? And maybe I just didn't SEE as much, or maybe the news just didn't REPORT it as much. It's just something I noticed. And it seems like not a very good move, IMO, as it just GIVES the Dims [sic] ammo. And it is NOT a good idea to give the OPPOSITION ammo!

I know Bush LIKES to schmooze his supporters... it's just not so bright in THIS situation, IMO. (IF he ACTUALLY spent LESS tinme w/folks in NOLA - or Houston w/folks FROM NOLA - you know what I'm saying. IF he did, they'll get AROUND to nailing him for it. I KNOW it's MUCH nicer spending time w/folks who LIKE you... but he's the leader of even the ones who do NOT like him (and COULD pick up a few fence-sitters) stranger things have happened.



I have seen some really stupid bullshit in the last week but I think that takes the cake.
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