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Posted: 9/4/2004 6:03:24 AM EST
I know ,, waaaaaa, that site. bla bla bla.

get over it, the dates and our involvement is well docmented ( what is availible and not still "secret" anyway)

Chris

Link


A Brief History of US Interventions in the Middle East 1949-2002

By Ty Moore

1949: CIA backs military coup in Syria, ousting elected government.
1953: CIA overthrows democratically elected Iranian government, placing the Shah in power. In 1951, Iranian parliament had nationalized the British Anglo-Iranian oil company. This popular move was spearheaded by the reformer, Mossadegh, who was elected prime minister shortly after. Britain and the US organize ruthless economic blockade. Shortly before the coup, the Communist Party calls a 100,000 strong demonstration to protest the US and the Shah. Nine hours of street fighting finally quells popular rebellion against the coup.

1954: Iranian oil re-privatized, with US and Britain in control. Popular opposition compels the Shah to rule through a reign of terror unrivalled in the region. US helps fund huge military and police build-up, and trains Savak, the notorious secret police. Amnesty International would write in 1976 that Iran had the "highest rate of death penalties in the world, no valid system of civilian courts and a history of torture which is beyond belief. No country in the world has a worse record in human rights than Iran."

1957-58: Syria and Egypt take steps toward a merger, reflecting revolutionary yearning of the Arab masses to unite against Western imperialism. The US Sixth Fleet is dispatched, and huge arms shipments are delivered to US client regimes. Syria and Egypt claim to uncover "at least eight separate conspiracies to overthrow one or the other government, to assassinate Nasser, and/or prevent the merger of the two countries." Independent evidence detailing several of these failed plots subsequently emerges.

1958: Iraq and Lebanon: Two weeks after 1958 Egypt/Syria merger, the US establishes "Baghdad Pact," uniting monarchies and puppet regimes against threat of Nasserism and growing Soviet influence. Mass rioting erupts throughout the region. Iraqi troops are ordered into Jordan to put down unrest. Under popular pressure, the army mutinies and instead marches on the royal palace. The hated King, Crown Prince, and Prime Minister are lynched.

The next day, US Marines land in Lebanon and British troops are dispatched to Jordan. A virtual civil war erupts as 14,000 US troops enter Lebanon at the invitation of the unpopular, CIA-backed government of Chamoun. Lebanese forces manage to put down the rebellion after months of urban clashes. President Eisenhower would later write: "This somber turn of events could, without a vigorous response on our part, result in the complete elimination of Western influence in the Middle East."

1963: Right wing of Iraq's Ba'ath party leads successful coup with US support, after unsuccessful US assassination attempt against Iraqi leader, Abdul Karim Qassim. The CIA provides Ba'ath party with names of Iraqi communists to murder, and the CP is ruthlessly slaughtered.

1968: A counter-coup, in which Saddam Hussein participates, leads to nationalization of Iraqi oil in 1972.

1973-75: To destabilize Iraq during a border dispute with Iran, US supports Kurdish rebels with $16 million in arms, promising to back them in their struggle for autonomy. When Iran and Iraq reach an agreement in 1975 and seal off their border, Iraq proceeds to violently suppress the Kurdish rebellion. US ends support for Kurds and denies them refuge. Henry Kissinger, architect of the ploy, explained, "covert action should not be confused with missionary work."

1973, 1978: A nationalist coup in 1973 brings down the Afghan monarchy. A 1978 coup puts the Stalinist Peoples Democratic Party in power. Afraid of growing Afghan ties to the Soviet Union, US begins covert funding for the reactionary Islamic Fundamentalist rebels. Mujahideen "Freedom Fighters" (according to President Ronald Reagan), are lead by Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, whose "followers first gained attention by throwing acid in the faces of women who refused to wear the veil." Six months later, the Soviet Union sends in troops to prop-up the Afghan government.

1979-92: US gives over $3 billion in arms and aid to the Mujahideen in Afghanistan. CIA sets up training camps in Pakistan and Afghanistan - some of the same "terrorist training camps" the US will bomb in 2001. Osama bin Laden and many other of today's Islamic Fundamentalist terrorist leaders are direct recipients of US aid and training. By 1992, more than a million Afghan people will have died, three million disabled, and five million made refugees, in total about half the population. The civil war continues to this day.

1979: Striking oil workers and students in Iran call for ousting the Shah, sparking a revolutionary uprising. US tells Shah it supports him "without reservation" and urges him to violently crush protest, but Shah is overthrown.

1980: Iraq invades Iran. Though antagonistic to both countries, the US intervenes to promote and prolong the conflict, looking to weaken both regimes. US opposes UN resolution condemning Iraq's invasion, takes Iraq off its list of nations supporting terrorism, and allows US arms transfers to Saddam Hussein. US urges Israel to arm Iran, and in 1985 the US secretly provides arms to Iran directly.

1982-83: Heavily funded, armed, and backed by the US, Israel invades Lebanon. Over 17,000 civilians are massacred. US blocks several UN resolutions calling for an Israeli withdrawal. In 1983, US troops also land in Lebanon to intervene in the civil war.

1984: Iraq uses chemical weapons on Iran; US subsequently restores diplomatic relations with Iraq. A US Defense Intelligence Agency official involved in aiding Iraq later commented that the Pentagon "wasn't so horrified by Iraq's use of gas. It was just another way of killing people."

1987: As Iran gets the upper hand in war with Iraq, the US moves to decisively back Iraq. A massive US armada in Persian Gulf ensures arms deliveries to Iraq. When a US gunship shoots down an Iranian civilian airliner, killing 290 passengers, Vice President Bush says, "I will never apologize for America. I don't care what the facts are."

1985-90: The US showers Iraq with billions in arms, loans, and aid. After Saddam Hussein uses chemical weapons to murder thousands of the Kurdish opposition in Iraq, the Bush administration continues to license the sale of chemical weapons, and blocks UN initiatives to curb their use.

1991: After Iraq invades Kuwait in 1990, US launches Operation Desert Storm - the most aggressive, high-tech military campaign in the history of warfare. Dropping more bomb tonnage than in all of Vietnam or World War Two, the 43 day air campaign kills between 100,000 and 200,000 Iraqis and destroys civilian infrastructure. Fearing a popular revolt and the destabilization of the region, the US refuses to aid previously encouraged uprisings by Kurds and Shi'as in the weeks after the war. US denies the rebels access to captured Iraqi weapons, and allows Iraqi helicopters use of "No-fly Zone" airspace to crush the uprising.

1990-now: Severe economic sanctions imposed on Iraq by the UN. By UN estimates, the sanctions have cost over a million lives, half of them children. About 5,000 children die each month, mostly from malnutrition and treatable diseases. From the most economically advanced country in the region before the US attack, Iraq today is among the most destitute.

1998: Renewed US and British bombing campaign - called Operation Desert Fox - against Iraq after it exposes US spies among UN weapons inspectors (later admitted by US officials). The UN pulls out inspectors before bombings, which continue to the present on average every other day.

2001: Following the September 11th terrorist attacks, the US launches a war on Afghanistan, killing over 3,500 people. US led UN occupation of the country props up US puppet regime of Karzai.


Middle East History
Colonial Rule Before World War II

In the mid 19th century, as the Ottoman Empire crumbled, the Western powers set determined eyes on the Middle East. Lord Curzan declared that the Persian Gulf should become a "British Lake." By the end of World War I, Britain and France assumed direct control of the territories of Egypt, Persia (Iran), Iraq, Palestine, and Syria. Western occupation, sanctioned by the UN precursor (the League of Nations), was in part also designed to crush the revolutionary ferment that swept the region following the Russian Revolution of 1917.

French and British imperialism arbitrarily carved up the vast territory inhabited by the Arab peoples to create artificial nation-states. These were created for colonial convenience and to break apart the Arab nation, making it easier to foist subservient, corrupt monarchies.

In 1921, Britain imposed a new monarch on Iraq - Faisal, "a king who will be content to reign, but not to govern," in the words of a British Foreign Office bureaucrat. The subsequent mass uproar was suppressed in brutal massacres in 1920-4. The brutality of British rule was captured in an infamous quote from Winston Churchill, who said "I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favor of using poisoned gas against uncivilized tribes."

By 1932, a limited "independence" was granted to Iraq, with Britain keeping its military bases and control of most industries. Winston Churchill explained that under this treaty British imperialism would remain "the owners or at any rate the controllers at the source of at least a proportion of the oil which we require." Or as the British military chief of staff explained, it gave "the appearance of complete equality... Whatever the de jure arrangements, we must retain the de facto control."

In the aftermath of World War Two, the colonial revolution surged forward on a global scale. Western European imperialist powers were economically devastated by the war and faced revolutionary upheavals at home. The Soviet Union emerged as a global power and, despite the horrors of Stalinist dictatorship, represented an important counterweight to Western imperialism.

The United States emerged as the dominant power in the capitalist world. From the Middle East to South East Asia, the US moved to displace the European powers as masters of the resources and peoples in the colonial world and the main defender of capitalist interests against radical movements for social change.


Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:15:33 AM EST
But what is the point you're trying to make - because I don't see it. (seriously, I'm not making fun - I really am missing the point).


I don't think anyone is denying that the U.S. has been involved in the MIddle East, but I gues smy question is "so what?"

England was much more heavily involved in Africa and India, but you don't see African and Indian terrorists blowing up schools in England.

So how does this relate to the HATRED of muslim extremists against the west, and particularly the U.S.?



... btw, thanks for starting a separate thread!
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:28:45 AM EST
$20 troll.

GBT
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:30:20 AM EST
...and your point is???
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:30:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2004 6:30:46 AM EST by Max_Mike]
The point he is trying to make is the point the idiot left always wants to push:

Blame America First.

Self hate is an ugly thing and he is eat up with it.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:32:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
The point he is trying to make is the point the idiot left always wants to push:

Blame America First.

Self hate is an ugly thing and he is eat up with it.




A nation divided.................
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:34:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By virginia22:
I know ,, waaaaaa, that site. bla bla bla.

get over it, the dates and our involvement is well docmented ( what is availible and not still "secret" anyway)

Chris

Link


A Brief History of US Interventions in the Middle East 1949-2002

By Ty Moore
1979-92: US gives over $3 billion in arms and aid to the Mujahideen in Afghanistan. CIA sets up training camps in Pakistan and Afghanistan - some of the same "terrorist training camps" the US will bomb in 2001. Osama bin Laden and many other of today's Islamic Fundamentalist terrorist leaders are direct recipients of US aid and training. By 1992, more than a million Afghan people will have died, three million disabled, and five million made refugees, in total about half the population. The civil war continues to this day.



Outright lie. The mujahadeen did NOT become Al Quaeda or the Taliban. SOME few foreign fighters from the mujahadeen gravitated to leaders like Bin Laden, but it was NOT a direct outgrowth of the anti-Soviet forces. And even if you could make the argument that the US helped train some of the people who wound up being Al Quaeda, so the fuck what? We were facing an enemy whose ideology included world conquest and who was armed with thousands of nuclear weapons and we fought them any way we could. To do otherwise would have been fatally stupid.



1991: After Iraq invades Kuwait in 1990, US launches Operation Desert Storm - the most aggressive, high-tech military campaign in the history of warfare.



Idiotic hyperbole. "Most agressive?" Moronic. The Nazi Blitzkrieg that conquered half of Europe might have a claim on that.



Dropping more bomb tonnage than in all of Vietnam or World War Two, the 43 day air campaign kills between 100,000 and 200,000 Iraqis and destroys civilian infrastructure.



Guess they shouldn't have invaded one of our allies, huh? Tough shit.



Fearing a popular revolt and the destabilization of the region, the US refuses to aid previously encouraged uprisings by Kurds and Shi'as in the weeks after the war. US denies the rebels access to captured Iraqi weapons, and allows Iraqi helicopters use of "No-fly Zone" airspace to crush the uprising.



Also a lie. The US allowed the use of helicopters by the Iraqi government to allow them some means of transportation since the bridges were out. Once the US realized what they were doing with the helicopters, we had already withdrawn our troops from Iraq and everyone was very hesitant to initiate further military actions. Beurocratic inertia delayed action, which was a bad thing, but it was not done to allow Iraq to destroy the uprising.



1990-now: Severe economic sanctions imposed on Iraq by the UN. By UN estimates, the sanctions have cost over a million lives, half of them children. About 5,000 children die each month, mostly from malnutrition and treatable diseases. From the most economically advanced country in the region before the US attack, Iraq today is among the most destitute.



And yet another lie. The sanctions made exceptions to allow Iraq to sell oil to feed and buy medicine for its people. Instead, Saddam used the money to build palaces. Of course, people like you who want to blame America for all the ills of the world don't usually care much about facts.



1998: Renewed US and British bombing campaign - called Operation Desert Fox - against Iraq after it exposes US spies among UN weapons inspectors (later admitted by US officials). The UN pulls out inspectors before bombings, which continue to the present on average every other day.



Yet another lie. You ASSume that the weapons inspectors were spies, you believe propoganda from Saddam Hussein with absolutely no proof.



2001: Following the September 11th terrorist attacks, the US launches a war on Afghanistan, killing over 3,500 people. US led UN occupation of the country props up US puppet regime of Karzai.



Total propagandistic bullshit. You should be ashamed to repost crap like this, but it's pretty obvious you have no shame.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:37:24 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:37:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:
The point he is trying to make is the point the idiot left always wants to push:

Blame America First.

Self hate is an ugly thing and he is eat up with it.



Not quite… it's Blame America and Britan first for standing up to tyranny… unlike the kissaas left wing governments they idolize…

ANdy
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:39:02 AM EST
The point is, WE created these extreamists for our own personal gain, and still are to this day.


as to africa, nope, no african or indian attacks......yet. Of course India has the A bomb. The pakis too for that matter
the path we have chosen, will breed worse Than what we're seeing now.


want to know why they hate us. read that list. want to continue to not learn from history. then history will indeed repeat itself.

Chris
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:40:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By virginia22:
The point is, WE created these extreamists for our own personal gain, and still are to this day.



No, the point is, you're LYING. You're repeating the lies of others after having been informed they're lies. That makes you either a liar or a sucker. Or, most likely, a troll.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:41:08 AM EST
to all.

No, I'm not blaming America "first" I'm blaming us too.

rik. nice dance, but no sale


Chris
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:41:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By virginia22:
The point is, WE created these extreamists for our own personal gain, and still are to this day.


as to africa, nope, no african or indian attacks......yet. Of course India has the A bomb. The pakis too for that matter
the path we have chosen, will breed worse Than what we're seeing now.


want to know why they hate us. read that list. want to continue to not learn from history. then history will indeed repeat itself.

Chris



You are a historically ignorant lying bafoon.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:43:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By virginia22:
to all.

No, I'm not blaming America "first" I'm blaming us too.

rik. nice dance, but no sale


Chris



Your denials don't change the truth, any more than your lies change history. You're a liar, a sucker or a troll. You decide.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:43:06 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:48:39 AM EST
What a crock of shit. Don't come here trying to pass along what the socialist idiots have given you (when you are so poorly informed to believe it) and attempt to pass it along as fact.

Around here, we tend to blame the people who are responsible for attacks on the innocent. They are known as terrorists. But I suppose people like you call them freedom fighters? At any rate, we don't blame AMERICA first for attacks done by others. So take your distorted left wing pieces of propaganda you call "facts" and shove em. Or share it with some of your left wing kook buddies who might appreciate it.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:48:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By Paul:
Socialist Alternative dot org is now a site of record




Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:57:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By virginia22:
to all.

No, I'm not blaming America "first" I'm blaming us too.

rik. nice dance, but no sale


Chris




And just who is this "us" you type of? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:00:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2004 7:08:01 AM EST by TexasRooter]

Originally Posted By virginia22:
The point is, WE created these extreamists for our own personal gain, and still are to this day.


as to africa, nope, no african or indian attacks......yet. Of course India has the A bomb. The pakis too for that matter
the path we have chosen, will breed worse Than what we're seeing now.


want to know why they hate us. read that list. want to continue to not learn from history. then history will indeed repeat itself.

Chris




Ok so I see your point or some of it. If you dig around in a beehive and stir it up long enough your gonna get ate up with stings eventually.

My question to you is. Now that you have tried to show us the problem, what's the solution to the problem. Thats always the hard part to come up with.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:00:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By ar10er:

Originally Posted By virginia22:
to all.

No, I'm not blaming America "first" I'm blaming us too.

rik. nice dance, but no sale


Chris




And just who is this "us" you type of? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?



Doncha feel bad for palling around with this guy in the other thread now?
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:00:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
But what is the point you're trying to make - because I don't see it. (seriously, I'm not making fun - I really am missing the point).


I don't think anyone is denying that the U.S. has been involved in the MIddle East, but I gues smy question is "so what?"

England was much more heavily involved in Africa and India, but you don't see African and Indian terrorists blowing up schools in England.

So how does this relate to the HATRED of muslim extremists against the west, and particularly the U.S.?



... btw, thanks for starting a separate thread!



I think this relates to the hatred of muslim extremists pretty strongly. The US has supported and instituted numerous policies and puppet governments in that region over the last 50 or so years that have been unpopular with the man on the street. All he knows is when the Americans come, bad things happen in his country. Whether or not we were "right" in doing so (I tend to think not on some occasions, neither profit nor the security of cheap resources is a very good reason for overthrow of popular government and the starting of wars, especially when the profit is private and the expense is public), we've pissed off the little guy. He's not going to soon forget that the totalitarian regime he just ousted was supported strongly by the USA, and that the primary reason for that support was the privatization of oil wealth with most of the profit going to american oil companies. Then you get some Soviet arms merchant show up and say, "Yes Comrade, the Americans are dogs, and we support your struggle for a worker's utopia! Here's a half mil AK's!" and you can see where a country like Iran might end up on the wrong side of the fence. Soon the reasoning is twisted by leaders that understand that while a man might die for freedom, he's going to feel even better about dying for his diety. In the meantime, we've lost credibility in the region and can offer no guidance, because the locals (logically) think we're a pack of greedy jackals.

The same shit happened in Cuba. US interests (can of Dole pineapple anyone?) protected by a repressive US backed puppet government were overthrown by commie scum, who might not have seemed that bad comparatively.

I sure as shit love my country, but we've made some fucked up choices in international relations over the last 100 years. Lots of those choices were strongly influenced by non-governmental US corporate interests gunning for max profits. No, the extremists are not right, but we're hardly the shining white knights bringing happiness and democracy that our collective self-view would indicate. Hopefully we've learned some lessons from all this, but our reputation in those parts of the world is dirt right now, and will be for some time.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:00:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By virginia22:
The point is, WE created these extreamists for our own personal gain, and still are to this day.


as to africa, nope, no african or indian attacks......yet. Of course India has the A bomb. The pakis too for that matter
the path we have chosen, will breed worse Than what we're seeing now.


want to know why they hate us. read that list. want to continue to not learn from history. then history will indeed repeat itself.

Chris




I've READ the list, and you haven't really answered my question.

The English have done FAR worse, both in the Middle East, in Africa, in India and in Australia.

You need to explain WHY it is that the Islamic fundamentalists hate the U.S. (and the rest of the West) and the Indians, African, Aborigines, West Indes, Pacific Rim, Vietnamese, etc. ett ad infinitum - DO NOT have the same hate, and DO NOT blow up building and schools in the west.

As you pointed out yourself, places like India have sophisticated weapons, missiles, etc - yet have never lashed out at the people that did horrible things to them in past history. They take it out on the brits by beating them at cricket, not by killing their children.

So what is it that's DIFFERENT about Islamic fundamentalism? That's what I'm trying to understand.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:04:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:
... but we've made some fucked up choices in international relations over the last 100 years. Lots of those choices were strongly influenced by non-governmental US corporate interests gunning for max profits. No, the extremists are not right, but we're hardly the shining white knights bringing happiness and democracy that our collective self-view would indicate. Hopefully we've learned some lessons from all this, but our reputation in those parts of the world is dirt right now, and will be for some time.




Sure, I'd agree with that (especialyl seeing it from the European persepctive, as I can). Every nation ultimately acts primarily out of self-interest.

But the question I'm trying to get answered is WHY the Islamic fundamentalists have chosen to turn that past into terrorist attacks on the people that might have been mean to them many years ago, when others (like all those places in the world that the Brits manipulated FAR MORE haven't chosen to turn to terrorist attacks against britain).

The lack of an answer to that question suggests that maybe the answer is MORE than just them "getting back at the U.S. for past greivances" - because nobody else other than the extremist muslims seem to be doing that. So it's just not a convincing explanation for the SOURCE of the agresstion and terrorism of the islamic extremists.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:11:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2004 7:12:39 AM EST by raven]

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By virginia22:
I know ,, waaaaaa, that site. bla bla bla.

get over it, the dates and our involvement is well docmented ( what is availible and not still "secret" anyway)

Chris

Link


A Brief History of US Interventions in the Middle East 1949-2002

By Ty Moore
1979-92: US gives over $3 billion in arms and aid to the Mujahideen in Afghanistan. CIA sets up training camps in Pakistan and Afghanistan - some of the same "terrorist training camps" the US will bomb in 2001. Osama bin Laden and many other of today's Islamic Fundamentalist terrorist leaders are direct recipients of US aid and training. By 1992, more than a million Afghan people will have died, three million disabled, and five million made refugees, in total about half the population. The civil war continues to this day.



Outright lie. The mujahadeen did NOT become Al Quaeda or the Taliban. SOME few foreign fighters from the mujahadeen gravitated to leaders like Bin Laden, but it was NOT a direct outgrowth of the anti-Soviet forces. And even if you could make the argument that the US helped train some of the people who wound up being Al Quaeda, so the fuck what? We were facing an enemy whose ideology included world conquest and who was armed with thousands of nuclear weapons and we fought them any way we could. To do otherwise would have been fatally stupid.



If you're interested in this time and period of history, the nexus of the Afghan resistance and its mutation into al-Qaeda and the US role in it all, there's a good book out now titled Ghost Wars by Stephen Coll.

The Arabs fighting there like Bin Laden had their own financial backing from Persian Gulf states, and they usually segregated themselves into Arab-only cadres. They deeply resented the participation of the US in their holy war, while the Afghans didn't really mind at all.

In the 90's when Bin Laden returned to Afghanistan, he and his organization excluded Afghans from their operations to as great an extent as possible. This provided great OpSec for al-Qaeda, since the CIA had plenty of Afghan assets but these spies were unable to be informed of anything useful, like where and when Bin Laden would be at any given moment. The Arabs wouldn't let them in on anything.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:12:17 AM EST
You part of America?

If not, sorry to include you.

Chris


Originally Posted By ar10er:

Originally Posted By virginia22:
to all.

No, I'm not blaming America "first" I'm blaming us too.

rik. nice dance, but no sale


Chris




And just who is this "us" you type of? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?

Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:13:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By virginia22:
You part of America?



He is. You're not.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:13:25 AM EST
Well it sure as hell ain't genocide.

seems the extreamists and some here want that.

Sorry, i ain't on that bandwagon.

Chris


Originally Posted By TexasRooter:

Originally Posted By virginia22:
The point is, WE created these extreamists for our own personal gain, and still are to this day.


as to africa, nope, no african or indian attacks......yet. Of course India has the A bomb. The pakis too for that matter
the path we have chosen, will breed worse Than what we're seeing now.


want to know why they hate us. read that list. want to continue to not learn from history. then history will indeed repeat itself.

Chris




Ok so I see your point or some of it. If you dig around in a beehive and stir it up long enough your gonna get ate up with stings eventually.

My question to you is. Now that you have tried to show us the problem, what's the solution to the problem. Thats always the hard part to come up with.

Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:14:35 AM EST
sitting right here in Va babes, born in Md.

as American as you.

Chris


Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By virginia22:
You part of America?



He is. You're not.

Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:15:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By virginia22:
sitting right here in Va babes, born in Md.

as American as you.



But you are ready and willing to believe outright lies and complete distoritions, blaming America for the problems of the world, so you may as well renounce your citizenship.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:18:21 AM EST
Uh… Was it not the US who moved to save hundreds of thousands of Muslims in the Balkans?

What we have done nor what we do will have ANY effect on how radical Islamic fascist react to US. They want to kill US because of who we are NOT what we do or have done.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:22:25 AM EST
Hell rik, you can't even accept your own American people for differing views.

Deny all you wish, we've had ourselves armpit deep in the midle east, we trained em, we armed em and then we deny deny deny. Who us?

go ahead back to your chest pounding and when it happens here again, we'll all be mad. some of us at those who created this mess, and those , well all of (pointing over there ) them.

Never blame America, right? reguardless of right or wrong?

No sale

now go, for the love of your god, kill them all.

BTW, Why are you not over there?you sound like someone who really needs to be there to me.

Chris

Chest pound and murder as you wish, I'm out............reason can't tame your blind hate.

Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:34:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By virginia22:
Hell rik, you can't even accept your own American people for differing views.



No, sorry, I can't accept when suckers like you swallow lies by anti-American socialists that want to blame all the world's ills on America.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:36:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By virginia22:
Hell rik, you can't even accept your own American people for differing views.

Deny all you wish, we've had ourselves armpit deep in the midle east, we trained em, we armed em and then we deny deny deny. Who us?

go ahead back to your chest pounding and when it happens here again, we'll all be mad. some of us at those who created this mess, and those , well all of (pointing over there ) them.

Never blame America, right? reguardless of right or wrong?

No sale

now go, for the love of your god, kill them all.

BTW, Why are you not over there?you sound like someone who really needs to be there to me.

Chris

Chest pound and murder as you wish, I'm out............reason can't tame your blind hate.




Wrong again "bright boy" Islam has been in the business of hate for more than a thousand years. It has been attacking the U.S. directly for 30 years. But it finally hit hard enough on 9/11/2001 that we couldn't ignore it anymore.

Analogy: If you and I shared an enemy. And I helped you defeat this enemy, but then years later you attacked me with something you leaned during the previous exchange. Would I be responsible for it? I think not. And I would be remiss if I did not defend myself and eliminate any threats.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:49:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:
... but we've made some fucked up choices in international relations over the last 100 years. Lots of those choices were strongly influenced by non-governmental US corporate interests gunning for max profits. No, the extremists are not right, but we're hardly the shining white knights bringing happiness and democracy that our collective self-view would indicate. Hopefully we've learned some lessons from all this, but our reputation in those parts of the world is dirt right now, and will be for some time.




Sure, I'd agree with that (especialyl seeing it from the European persepctive, as I can). Every nation ultimately acts primarily out of self-interest.

But the question I'm trying to get answered is WHY the Islamic fundamentalists have chosen to turn that past into terrorist attacks on the people that might have been mean to them many years ago, when others (like all those places in the world that the Brits manipulated FAR MORE haven't chosen to turn to terrorist attacks against britain).

The lack of an answer to that question suggests that maybe the answer is MORE than just them "getting back at the U.S. for past greivances" - because nobody else other than the extremist muslims seem to be doing that. So it's just not a convincing explanation for the SOURCE of the agresstion and terrorism of the islamic extremists.



It's the same self-interest. Their goal is creation of islamic states where they wield absolute power (and ultimately of course, a WORLD islamic state). They need an enemy to rally popular support, and we're it. I don't mistake the extremist movements for liberators, they're just the same totalitarian assholes in a different flavor. Iran is this whole equation taken to it's logical end. The people there are realizing that the islamists are just in it for the power, and that their lot in life hasn't really improved since the Great Satan was run out.. But at the time of the revolution there, anything seemed better than the Shah.

As to why the Africans and Indians aren't gunning for the Brits.. Well, I'd guess that it's a mix of dealing with their own internal squabbles, and the fact that the Brits don't have any influence there anymore. The US continues to screw with the middle east in less blatant ways, but we're also a much bigger target than the UK in the popular view. Worth more points when they succeed too.. David and Goliath style. Why terror attacks in particular? Because they cannot win a straight shooting war, and the biggest and most effective weapon against the US military has been shown repeatedly to be american public opinion. The only way they can win is to turn this into another Vietnam or another Mogadishu. If they do win against America, they will be unstoppable as a political force at home.

Yup.. Greed makes the world go 'round, one way or the other.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 8:10:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By virginia22:
I know ,, waaaaaa, that site. bla bla bla.

get over it, the dates and our involvement is well docmented ( what is availible and not still "secret" anyway)

Chris

Link


A Brief History of US Interventions in the Middle East 1949-2002

<<snip>




You said it...blah...blah...blah.

You and that socialist rag are so full of shit your eyes are a permanent brown.

Normally, I'd take the time to refute every single canard with simple facts and suberb [but pedantic] argument. In this case however you aren't worth the effort.

Most of your "facts" are fallacious assumptions based on inaccurate sources and false information.

When the United States DID play interventionist world politics, it was in OUR best interests and thus perfectly ok for the preservation and betterment of our republic. We are damn well not the first nation-state or principality or kingdom or even city state to engage in this form or hardball politics. This has been going on for centuries. It's called realpolitic the "practical" application of politics: "politics based on practical rather than moral or ideological considerations"

As a whiney liberal with a "blame America first" mindset, you wouldn't understand any of this...but we'll do our best to keep you up on the facts.

You are also a foolish liberal troll with little grasp of reality, history and world events...and sadly you are also a disgrace to our commonwealth. Begone!
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 10:08:58 AM EST
Virginia 22 must be a Muslim lover, or a Muslim extremist himself, or just a fucking idiot troll!!!
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 10:41:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By virginia22:
Hell rik, you can't even accept your own American people for differing views.

Deny all you wish, we've had ourselves armpit deep in the midle east, we trained em, we armed em and then we deny deny deny. Who us?

go ahead back to your chest pounding and when it happens here again, we'll all be mad. some of us at those who created this mess, and those , well all of (pointing over there ) them.

Never blame America, right? reguardless of right or wrong?

No sale

now go, for the love of your god, kill them all.

BTW, Why are you not over there?you sound like someone who really needs to be there to me.

Chris

Chest pound and murder as you wish, I'm out............reason can't tame your blind hate.




Are you serious?! Why is the trend now that NO ONE is responsible for their own actions? When it comes down to it, NO ONE can MAKE you do anything. If I put you in a hand-to-hand combat class, and teach you to shoot a rifle accurately, and then give you your very own rifle for your birthday and you go out and kill someone with it, amy I responsible for the person you killed? HELL NO! That has got to be one of the biggest problems in the US today is that NO ONE feels that they are responsible for their own actions anymore. In today's society, if your kid trespasses on my property and swings on my fence and breaks his arm, the first inclination is that it was somehow MY fault for not making my fence safer, or putting up a "do not swing on fence" sign, etc, etc. The simple fact is that NO ONE is to blame except for the terrorist who weilds the knife that slits the throat.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 10:49:37 AM EST


Originally Posted By virginia22:
sitting right here in Va babes, born in Md.

as American as you, and yet Anti-American just the same



Link Posted: 9/4/2004 10:54:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2004 10:59:53 AM EST by NSFJojo]
Ok, let me get this straight: We oust the taliban, a very, very bad fundamentalist government that mutilated female genitilia and we installed a puppet government and held elections. Despite the fact that the haters of freedom executed more than 40 men who registered to vote? And we're responsible and the governmment that we set up there is at fault?

Is the ogvernment in Afghanistan a puppet government becuase it refuses to allow armed warlords from dictating national/regional policy?

Wait, I almost get it... Were the men on the Iraq olympic team grateful for the ability to just perform to their best without fear of reprisal at home or did they appreciate the torture administered by the Iraqi government under Saddam?.

OK, hold on... stick with me here: Do you hate women, freedom, elections, the right to pursue whatever the fuck you want? Do you hate the fact that Afghans can now access porn if they want to and do you find that America is to blame for their corruption? DO you believe that the previous governments in either country were morally superior?

ETA:

Some people are your enemies. They are not there for you to identify with just because you know their stories. If you go around taking your enemies point of view, that no longer makes you their enemy, do you understand?
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 10:59:45 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 2:45:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By ar10er:

Originally Posted By virginia22:
to all.

No, I'm not blaming America "first" I'm blaming us too.

rik. nice dance, but no sale


Chris




And just who is this "us" you type of? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?



Doncha feel bad for palling around with this guy in the other thread now?




Who was palling? Just a little sarcasm.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 2:48:29 PM EST
Threads collapse so quickly when the instigator is locked..
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 2:53:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By virginia22:
You part of America?

If not, sorry to include you.

Chris


Originally Posted By ar10er:

Originally Posted By virginia22:
to all.

No, I'm not blaming America "first" I'm blaming us too.

rik. nice dance, but no sale


Chris




And just who is this "us" you type of? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?





My America has colors that don't run. This country has given more of its wealth to muslim countries, than an muslim country has given to another muslim country. You really need to stop listening to your imamommy.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 2:54:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2004 2:54:41 PM EST by -Absolut-]
Another bites the dust.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 2:57:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:
Threads collapse so quickly when the instigator is locked..




What did he do? I went shooting, so, I missed it.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 2:58:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By -Absolut-:
Another bites the dust.




Do you know?

Or is it all pie to you.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:04:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By ar10er:

Originally Posted By -Absolut-:
Another bites the dust.




Do you know?

Or is it all pie to you.



He stirred a little too much shit in Balzac72's thread on the murdered Russian schoolchildren. Another "Global Citizen" bites the dust.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:16:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:

Originally Posted By ar10er:

Originally Posted By -Absolut-:
Another bites the dust.




Do you know?

Or is it all pie to you.



He stirred a little too much shit in Balzac72's thread on the murdered Russian schoolchildren. Another "Global Citizen" bites the dust.




Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:18:06 PM EST
I dont care why they hate us , all I know is we have to kill them befor they kill us.... Thats all I have to say..
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:27:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By virginia22:
The point is, WE created these extreamists for our own personal gain, and still are to this day.


as to africa, nope, no african or indian attacks......yet. Of course India has the A bomb. The pakis too for that matter
the path we have chosen, will breed worse Than what we're seeing now.


want to know why they hate us. read that list. want to continue to not learn from history. then history will indeed repeat itself.

Chris



We are supposed to pay any attention to someone who can't spell, does not understand punctuation, and does not know when to capitalize letters. Yeah, you are real brilliant.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:28:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
Bizarrely, at least according to the author of a new biography of Bin Laden, he approached some mid east leaders after Iraq invaded Kuwait and offered to attack the Iraqi troops, claming that he and his comrades from Afghanistan could throw out the Iraqi troops without the assistance of the United States, needless to say his offer was rejected.

I haven't read the book, I just heard an interview with the newspaperman who wrote it.




I heard the same thing, with the adjoining theory that all of his hate toward is directly related to Bin Laden feeling humiliated because of the rejection. He was sure that after driving the USSR from Afghanistan, he would be hailed as a hero capable of taking on all comers, but he lost face when he was told that he was considered incapable of running the Iraqi's out of Kuwait.
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