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8/16/2022 4:37:09 PM
Posted: 3/20/2015 1:35:32 PM EDT
MAC recently showed off the penetration and wound channel capabilities of the Lehigh Extreme Penetrator bullet, and the Underwood version that they load hot.  Really impressive stuff, even in .380.  

Anyone have any experience with it?  Or in another caliber?



https://youtu.be/-PDQcE-1T40


Pretty awesome, even through denim or steel.




http://www.underwoodammo.com/xtreme-penetrator/
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 1:39:01 PM EDT
[#1]
ETA - Nevermind
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 1:39:56 PM EDT
[#2]
Weird.  I can't get the Youtube to embed;  https://youtu.be/-PDQcE-1T40
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 1:41:17 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 1:41:33 PM EDT
[#4]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Weird.  I can't get the Youtube to embed;  https://youtu.be/-PDQcE-1T40
View Quote
The share link has added an s, should be just http.

 





Link Posted: 3/20/2015 1:42:13 PM EDT
[#5]




Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:





Weird.  I can't get the Youtube to embed;  https://youtu.be/-PDQcE-1T40
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Here ya go.  You just delete the "s" from https://

 




































































































































































































































ETA:  Beat twice.  You guys are quick.  



 
 
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 1:43:03 PM EDT
[#6]
Will that hurt vampires too?  

Do they have silver ones for werewolves?
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 1:43:16 PM EDT
[#7]
I"m surprised ATF has not classified these rounds as armor piercing.
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 1:46:43 PM EDT
[#8]
No feed problems with those?
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 1:50:36 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
No feed problems with those?
View Quote


That is what I am most curious about.  They seem to far more effective than standard ball ammo, but the feed reliability is critical, especially in something like a 1911 or Mustang/P238.

Link Posted: 3/20/2015 1:51:19 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
No feed problems with those?
View Quote


I was thinking that, but it looks like the bullet still has a conical profile which should slide up
the feed ramp ok.

Interesting idea. I wonder if having a couple more "serrations" would improve flight and expansion?
(Think of the end looking more like a Torx shape than a cross...)
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 1:56:57 PM EDT
[#11]
No expansion? Lack of penetration really isnt an issue with FMJ.
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 1:58:18 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I was thinking that, but it looks like the bullet still has a conical profile which should slide up
the feed ramp ok.

Interesting idea. I wonder if having a couple more "serrations" would improve flight and expansion?
(Think of the end looking more like a Torx shape than a cross...)
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
No feed problems with those?


I was thinking that, but it looks like the bullet still has a conical profile which should slide up
the feed ramp ok.

Interesting idea. I wonder if having a couple more "serrations" would improve flight and expansion?
(Think of the end looking more like a Torx shape than a cross...)


The broad profile of the scallops and the large flat face of the nose seems to be pretty devastating with hydrostatic shock. That Slow-motion shot in the gel shows it cutting one hell channel with massive cavation.
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 1:59:32 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
No expansion? Lack of penetration really isnt an issue with FMJ.
View Quote


None, and there isn't any lead in there to cause much deformity either. But the shape causes a lot of shock, but does that translate to effective tissue destruction and hemorrhaging?
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 2:00:56 PM EDT
[#14]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


No expansion? Lack of penetration really isnt an issue with FMJ.
View Quote
There is a larger temporary and permanent cavity with these, though.

 
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 2:04:02 PM EDT
[#15]
That's pretty impressive.
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 2:04:52 PM EDT
[#16]
I'll bet the only thing really "Extreme" is the price per-round.
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 2:05:09 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I"m surprised ATF has not classified these rounds as armor piercing.
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They'd have to change the law. Oh wait, they don't give a shit what the law says. Good point.
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 2:05:53 PM EDT
[#18]


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



I'll bet the only thing really "Extreme" is the price per-round.
View Quote
$28.50 per 20 for the Underwood.


 



What's impressive is getting 1100 fps, out of that little barrel.
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 2:06:51 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
$28.50 per 20 for the Underwood.  
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'll bet the only thing really "Extreme" is the price per-round.
$28.50 per 20 for the Underwood.  


Nailed it!
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 2:14:22 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


None, and there isn't any lead in there to cause much deformity either. But the shape causes a lot of shock, but does that translate to effective tissue destruction and hemorrhaging?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
No expansion? Lack of penetration really isnt an issue with FMJ.


None, and there isn't any lead in there to cause much deformity either. But the shape causes a lot of shock, but does that translate to effective tissue destruction and hemorrhaging?


Hopefully the experts will weigh in.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13392-Lehigh-Defense-Xtreme-Penetrator-Ammunition
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 2:56:52 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Nailed it!
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'll bet the only thing really "Extreme" is the price per-round.
$28.50 per 20 for the Underwood.  


Nailed it!


It's within the realm of other self defense rounds like Critical Defense / Duty, etc.  

I consider these low-volume shooters anyways.  Shoot a box or two to test function and train a little, and keep them in your carry / nightstand gun.
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 3:02:40 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


It's within the realm of other self defense rounds like Critical Defense / Duty, etc.  
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'll bet the only thing really "Extreme" is the price per-round.
$28.50 per 20 for the Underwood.  


Nailed it!


It's within the realm of other self defense rounds like Critical Defense / Duty, etc.  


$17.99/25

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/352263/hornady-critical-defense-ammunition-380-acp-90-grain-flex-tip-expanding-box-of-25?cm_vc=ProductFinding
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 6:16:42 PM EDT
[#23]
They are marketing a solid copper bullet.  

So, all of a sudden, depth of penetration is more important than energy deposition in the target.  Why am I not surprised at all that the "success criteria" favor the known/predictable characteristics of the product being marketed.

Link Posted: 3/20/2015 6:21:48 PM EDT
[#24]
reverse Ogive's are nasty wound makers..
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 6:23:39 PM EDT
[#25]
I do not see a purpose for the larger rounds but in .380 where traditional hollowpoints have difficulty making adequate penetration and expansion these seem to be a viable alternative. I have fired 25 of the Lehigh defense with no feeding issues, had other firearm issues that precluded further testing.
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 6:52:09 PM EDT
[#26]
If it's penetrating 27 inches, shouldn't we be worried about over penetration? I read an article by Ayoob that kind of points to this as a consideration...

http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/25/massad-ayoob-is-hollowpoint-the-best-defensive-ammo-for-concealed-carry/
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 7:41:47 PM EDT
[#27]
I would definitely be interested in trying some underwood in my G 42
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 7:44:29 PM EDT
[#28]
18 minutes? Who is this NutNFancy?
Link Posted: 3/22/2015 1:31:09 PM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If it's penetrating 27 inches, shouldn't we be worried about over penetration? I read an article by Ayoob that kind of points to this as a consideration...

http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/25/massad-ayoob-is-hollowpoint-the-best-defensive-ammo-for-concealed-carry/
View Quote


Exactly my point.  This seems to be nothing more than an extended duration infomercial promoting the bullets and ammo.

Their proposition, that penetration is everything, runs contrary to everything I have ever heard about what you want for self defense ammo.  Is the 380 ACP different in some way?  Certainly over-penetration remains a concern in th ehome or in a crowded urban environment.
Link Posted: 3/22/2015 1:38:20 PM EDT
[#30]
Tag for the read.
Link Posted: 3/22/2015 1:48:01 PM EDT
[#31]
I'd put $5 on these going through at least IIA soft armor. Might punch IIIA too.
Link Posted: 3/22/2015 1:53:35 PM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'd put $5 on these going through at least IIA soft armor. Might punch IIIA too.
View Quote


I would be interested in seeing that test.

Meanwhile, I think Liberty Defense ammo might be nastier in terms of actual "stop the bad guy" effectiveness, but it's just a hunch based on velocity and expansion characteristics.
Link Posted: 3/22/2015 1:55:15 PM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'd put $5 on these going through at least IIA soft armor. Might punch IIIA too.
View Quote


The 10mm version defeats some soft body armor.
Link Posted: 3/22/2015 2:15:33 PM EDT
[#34]
Link Posted: 3/22/2015 3:03:33 PM EDT
[#35]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
None, and there isn't any lead in there to cause much deformity either. But the shape causes a lot of shock, but does that translate to effective tissue destruction and hemorrhaging?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:

No expansion? Lack of penetration really isnt an issue with FMJ.




None, and there isn't any lead in there to cause much deformity either. But the shape causes a lot of shock, but does that translate to effective tissue destruction and hemorrhaging?
I recall that the body can take the hydro static shock of pistol velocities without too much damage. The damage is caused by what the bullet
actually hits. Rifle bullets over 2000 fps cause a faster expansion and can damage tissue without actually hitting it. That knowledge is old

and may have changed since then.



Link Posted: 3/22/2015 3:11:28 PM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I recall that the body can take the hydro static shock of pistol velocities without too much damage. The damage is caused by what the bullet actually hits. Rifle bullets over 2000 fps cause a faster expansion and can damage tissue without actually hitting it. That knowledge is old
and may have changed since then.


View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No expansion? Lack of penetration really isnt an issue with FMJ.


None, and there isn't any lead in there to cause much deformity either. But the shape causes a lot of shock, but does that translate to effective tissue destruction and hemorrhaging?
I recall that the body can take the hydro static shock of pistol velocities without too much damage. The damage is caused by what the bullet actually hits. Rifle bullets over 2000 fps cause a faster expansion and can damage tissue without actually hitting it. That knowledge is old
and may have changed since then.




Some things just don't change.  Shot placement is the MAIN factor in bullet effectiveness for handguns.

Over-penetration is a separate issue which should not be ignored.  In an urban environment, there are people in your line of fire.  It's just a question of penetration - will you get to them?

Link Posted: 3/22/2015 3:36:01 PM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Exactly my point.  This seems to be nothing more than an extended duration infomercial promoting the bullets and ammo.

Their proposition, that penetration is everything, runs contrary to everything I have ever heard about what you want for self defense ammo.  Is the 380 ACP different in some way?  Certainly over-penetration remains a concern in th ehome or in a crowded urban environment.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
If it's penetrating 27 inches, shouldn't we be worried about over penetration? I read an article by Ayoob that kind of points to this as a consideration...

http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/25/massad-ayoob-is-hollowpoint-the-best-defensive-ammo-for-concealed-carry/


Exactly my point.  This seems to be nothing more than an extended duration infomercial promoting the bullets and ammo.

Their proposition, that penetration is everything, runs contrary to everything I have ever heard about what you want for self defense ammo.  Is the 380 ACP different in some way?  Certainly over-penetration remains a concern in th ehome or in a crowded urban environment.


.380 doesn't have enough oomph for HP rounds to work correctly.  Either they expand too early and have poor penetration or they don't expand at all.
Link Posted: 3/22/2015 3:40:18 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Another gee whiz, whiz bang super performing, over penetrating mouse hunting round.  The guy gets all excited about the penetration, while the bullet isn't dumping its energy into the target, rather poor performance really.  I'm not impressed.
View Quote


That's because "energy dump" isn't a wounding factor in handguns.

Only the amount of tissue crushed (the permanent cavity) is important. Getting deep enough to reliably perforate vitals of an attacker is important. As in the opening minutes of the video, many hollowpoints in .380 will fail to meet minimum penetration standards. Which means if your attacker has his arms up, a traditional .380 HP might just go through the arm and barely into the torso, not deep enough to reach vital organs. Why have his arms up? Maybe he's holding a weapon, and the defending shooter does the usual thing and focuses on the weapon more than the torso. In that case, the bullet has a lot more tissue to traverse before it reaches the vitals.

I've seen a lot of LEO shooting AARs where the bullet's performance in gel, with the 4-layer denim over it, correlates VERY strongly to its real-world performance when used against a criminal suspect. Getting enough penetration is Job 1. Expansion is Job 2. Not over-penetrating is Job 3. All those presuppose reliable function and acceptable accuracy.
Link Posted: 3/22/2015 3:47:29 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
18 minutes? Who is this NutNFancy?
View Quote

Military Arms Channel is waaaaayyy better than Nutnfancy.
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