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Posted: 1/11/2015 12:01:16 AM EST
Most people have been there: a few drinks at a restaurant or bar and then into the car to get home. Am I over the legal limit? Hard to say. Is my driving impaired? It doesn’t seem to be. But what if I get stopped? Will I lose my license, go to jail, and be disgraced in front of the community? It’s a frightening prospect.

What’s especially strange about this is the reason I fear. My arrest and punishment would not be for driving recklessly or for endangering other drivers. It would be because I failed a test of something that is not materially related to my actual driving.

The law is arbitrary and shifts with the political season. The perpetrators can’t really be sure if they are over or under the limit. And we all have vast experience with people who drink surprising amounts of liquor and drive all the time, but never get in accidents and do not seem to be driving in an unsafe way.

Then there are the frequent cases in which cops arrest people for DUI who are stopped for something else, like a burned-out tail light. I’ve known of people who have been arrested in their own driveways, having gotten home safely and harmed no one. They are arrested and imprisoned, a humiliating and terrible experience for anyone to go through.

Clearly, this DUI enforcement has been a boon to the police but has it really curbed drunk driving? You might consider staking out your local bar, following how much people drink, and observing how many get in cars after. I’ll just state what most everyone knows but hardly anyone says: drinking and driving is a national sport in the U.S. In the vast, vast majority of cases, no harm is done.

Murray Rothbard once told me that he thought drunk driving should be legal. I was stunned and shocked that anyone would say such a thing. But over time, I began to see his point. It is not outrageous at all.

He was exactly right.

With laws against DUI, what’s being criminalized? Not reckless driving as such. Not aggression against anyone. What’s being criminalized is the chemical make up of the blood in your body. That itself should be no crime. To make having a certain blood content illegal is essentially totalitarian.

But you say that drinking is associated with bad driving. Well, enforce the laws against reckless driving. Many more people drink and drive than drive recklessly. Some people drive even more safely after a few drinks, correcting for their delayed responses. We do this all the time, e.g. after a workout, when we are sleepy, when we are angry, whatever. Human beings adapt with rationality.

And you know what happens on New Year’s some other holiday. People always say “be careful, there are lots of drunk drivers out there.” Just the prospect alone makes everyone drive more defensively.
Regardless, the law has no business criminalizing associated peaceful behaviors rather than real crimes against person and property.

For example, grudges are associated with murder in the sense that a vast number of murderers are carrying a grudge. Do we make grudges illegal? That would be crazy and unenforceable, even if there were some chemical way to measure what constitutes a grudge. But we make driving under the influence illegal though it is roughly the same thing. It targets an associated condition rather than the crime itself.

Laws against drunk driving have vastly expanded police power and done nothing to stop the practice. The best prevention against unsafe driving from drinking has been provided privately: friends, services offered by bars and restaurants, community interest groups, etc. This is the humane and rational way societies deal with social risks. The police have only messed up this process by adding a coercive element that targets liberty rather than crime.

And we can see where this is heading. Texting is now illegal in most places. So is talking on the phone. Maybe talking itself should be illegal. Some communities are talking about banning eating. All of this is a distraction from the real issue.
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http://tucker.liberty.me/2015/01/07/legalize-drunk-driving/
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:04:01 AM EST
Fuck that guy.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:08:42 AM EST
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Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Fuck that guy.
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uhm, he's actually pretty right. did you even read?
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:11:42 AM EST
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Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Fuck that guy.
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This ^

Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:14:23 AM EST
If he doesn't like the rules that come with the privilege of driving, he can walk.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:15:04 AM EST
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Originally Posted By fla556guy:


uhm, he's actually pretty right. did you even read?
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Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Fuck that guy.


uhm, he's actually pretty right. did you even read?


Part of making a successful argument is relating the issue to commonly accepted concepts in order to persuade others.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:15:20 AM EST
Awwwww shit I'm in on one for this mess.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:16:52 AM EST
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Originally Posted By LowBeta:
Fuck that guy.
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No, maybe he's right. Maybe as a doc I should be allowed to drink while at work or on call. I'm sure he would be totally OK with it.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:19:08 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Kbear:
If he doesn't like the rules that come with the privilege of driving, he can walk.
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Yeah, if you don't like the NFA then you can collect muskets.

nice.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:20:14 AM EST


Bring the drunk drivers out of the shadows!!!!!
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:20:31 AM EST
Everyone should be legally allowed to be as drunk or stoned as they want any time they want.

Doctors, pilots, politicians, lawyers, child care, teachers, bus drivers...

It'd make for a less tedious existence not knowing if a Greyhound was about to plow through your living room.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:20:38 AM EST
this guy is fucking clueless!!!
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:20:46 AM EST
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Originally Posted By NeoSaffiru:


Yeah, if you don't like the NFA then you can collect muskets.


nice.
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Originally Posted By NeoSaffiru:
Originally Posted By Kbear:
If he doesn't like the rules that come with the privilege of driving, he can walk.


Yeah, if you don't like the NFA then you can collect muskets.


nice.


Firing a machine gun in your backyard doesn't affect anyone else. Driving on the road does.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:21:22 AM EST


But i'm still......

Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:21:58 AM EST
drunk driving laws don't work, so using the same logic for other drug laws, might as well legalize it
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:25:23 AM EST
Anybody that thinks this guy has a valid point, please come pick the next dead five year old up out of the road for me that was killed by a drunk driver and let's see how you feel about it.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:26:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/11/2015 12:26:50 AM EST by Cincinnatus]
You can sue me after I kill your family in an "accident," but what's in my blood is nobody's business but mine.

Or if you have a problem with me driving drunk, you should drive someplace else. People around here like to drive drunk. You should mind your own business or stay off our roads if you have a problem with that.

Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:26:53 AM EST
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Originally Posted By NeoSaffiru:


Yeah, if you don't like the NFA then you can collect muskets.

nice.
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Originally Posted By NeoSaffiru:
Originally Posted By Kbear:
If he doesn't like the rules that come with the privilege of driving, he can walk.


Yeah, if you don't like the NFA then you can collect muskets.

nice.


Godwin's law of guns in 3, 2, 1.....

Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:27:01 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Kbear:
If he doesn't like the rules that come with the privilege of driving, he can walk.
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Is that like the "privilege" of being allowed to carry a firearm?
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:27:37 AM EST
Just because lots of people do something that is harmful to society doesn't mean we should legalize it.

Around 30% of fatal car accidents are because of drunk driving. How would legalizing drunk driving reduce that?
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:28:48 AM EST
I'm Drinving drunk right now while I postinf on arfcom .
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:30:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By NeoSaffiru:
Originally Posted By Kbear:
If he doesn't like the rules that come with the privilege of driving, he can walk.
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Yeah, if you don't like the NFA then you can collect muskets.

nice.
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Complete irrelevant.

Owning machine guns is a Civil Right. Driving on public roads is a privilege.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:30:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/11/2015 12:31:38 AM EST by focus8]
Am I here in time before the nanny staters show up?


Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:31:12 AM EST
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Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
drunk driving laws don't work, so using the same logic for other drug laws, might as well legalize it
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Kinda the same way I see it. We already have laws and legal processes in place to deal with stealing, violence, and other concerns regarding drug use. We also have laws and legal processes to deal with property damage, wrongful death/injury, and other concerns regarding drunk driving.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:31:23 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Kbear:


Godwin's law of guns in 3, 2, 1....
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Originally Posted By Kbear:
Originally Posted By NeoSaffiru:
Originally Posted By Kbear:
If he doesn't like the rules that come with the privilege of driving, he can walk.


Yeah, if you don't like the NFA then you can collect muskets.

nice.


Godwin's law of guns in 3, 2, 1....



There is a difference in a right spelled out in the constitution and a privilege. For some reason a lot of people have trouble wrapping their heads around that.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:33:24 AM EST
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Originally Posted By DetrhoytMAK:


Kinda the same way I see it. We already have laws and legal processes in place to deal with stealing, violence, and other concerns regarding drug use. We also have laws and legal processes to deal with property damage, wrongful death/injury, and other concerns regarding drunk driving.
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Originally Posted By DetrhoytMAK:
Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
drunk driving laws don't work, so using the same logic for other drug laws, might as well legalize it


Kinda the same way I see it. We already have laws and legal processes in place to deal with stealing, violence, and other concerns regarding drug use. We also have laws and legal processes to deal with property damage, wrongful death/injury, and other concerns regarding drunk driving.


Yes, we have laws in place to deal with the bloody aftermath and damages.



Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:37:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/11/2015 12:38:37 AM EST by rktman26]
One of the best things that ever happened to me was a DUI.

I was 19 (42 now). I drank and drove all the time. Too many times too count, I'd get HAMMERED, and drive back on base (I was a brand new Corporal back then, Master Sergeant now, almost 23 years later).

One Saturday afternoon, (26 Mar 92), I had about 5 or 6 beers at a local bar and drove back on base. Not recklessly, but when I pulled into the gravel parking lot near by barracks, I pulled the car a tad too far forward (there were no parking "bumpers", or whatever you call them", and ended up putting the front end too far forward and the front tires ended up going into a drainage ditch. The frame of my my car ended up a little high centered, I was stuck.

Along came a buddy with truck and as he was pulling my car out, the MPs showed up.

"Who's car is this?
"Mine."
"Were you driving it?"
"Yes."
"Have you been drinking?"
"Yes."

Anyway, a few hours later, I blew a .11 BAC. The duty picked me up, and I ended up going to NJP. That's not what stopped me from drinking and driving, it was a friend of mine.

He reminded me that he had kids, and how he would be affected if I had hit him on the way back to the base. That's what hit home for me.

How it would affect other people.

If the threat of getting busted for a DUI is a deterrent, so be it. Let's not wait until someone crashes into a family on their way to the Dairy Queen to call it "reckless".

Just my opinion, and I'll probably catch shit for it.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:39:29 AM EST
Jeffrey Tucker is a dumb fucker. Fuck drunk drivers.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:40:14 AM EST
Let's deregulate speed limits while we're at it.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:41:37 AM EST
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Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Let's deregulate speed limits while we're at it.
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Or atleast quit generating revenue from them.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:42:32 AM EST
Didn't read, but I do think we need to raise the limit back to .10
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:43:59 AM EST
Are people ACTUALLY advocating for drunk driving????


Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:47:20 AM EST
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Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Let's deregulate speed limits while we're at it.
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I don't think the act of drunk driving in and of itself should be legal, I just don't agree with completely fucking a person's life up in the manner in which a DUI conviction does nowadays, unless death, injury, and/or property damage has occurred.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:47:23 AM EST
I would think the numbers would show that legalizing drunk driving is a bad idea.

I think the numbers would so the opposite for NFA.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:48:39 AM EST
Hmm. I sure like being alive. I'd imagine others do to. It's not like the impairment is made up. I wouldn't have a problem with it if all it did was kill yourself, but there are little kids crossing roads and nuns and babies and such.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:49:09 AM EST
i thought it was legal until you got caught?

JUST KIDDING.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:49:53 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:50:17 AM EST
Don't fucking drink and drive. If you don't drink and drive, or fly an airplane or perform surgery there should not be an issue.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:52:13 AM EST
Lol. This will be an interesting thread.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:52:48 AM EST
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Originally Posted By krpind:
I'll be glad when we have self driving cars and none of this will matter.
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I'm still waiting for my hover board. Fucking Michael J. Fox.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:53:29 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
You can sue me after I kill your family in an "accident," but what's in my blood is nobody's business but mine.

Or if you have a problem with me driving drunk, you should drive someplace else. People around here like to drive drunk. You should mind your own business or stay off our roads if you have a problem with that.

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Where do you live?
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:55:12 AM EST
IATDDS

In after the drunk driver sympathizers.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:55:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/11/2015 12:57:06 AM EST by 50-140]
I lost two friends after they were in a head on crash from a drunk driver who crossed the highway median.

Legalize drunk driving, okay how about making any accident which results in a fatality caused by a drunk driver a capitol crime with a mandatory death sentence?
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:56:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/11/2015 8:14:33 AM EST by VA-gunnut]
Retread
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:57:33 AM EST

In to watch all our small government republicans hard at work.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 12:57:49 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 50-140:
I lost two friends after they were in a head on crash from a drunk driver who crossed the highway median.

Legalize drunk driving, okay how about making any accident which results in a fatality caused by a drunk driver a capitol crime with a mandatory death sentence?
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Fine with me.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 1:00:27 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 50-140:
I lost two friends after they were in a head on crash from a drunk driver who crossed the highway median.

Legalize drunk driving, okay how about making any accident which results in a fatality caused by a drunk driver a capitol crime with a mandatory death sentence?
View Quote

Link Posted: 1/11/2015 1:02:17 AM EST
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Originally Posted By DetrhoytMAK:


Fine with me.
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Originally Posted By DetrhoytMAK:
Originally Posted By 50-140:
I lost two friends after they were in a head on crash from a drunk driver who crossed the highway median.

Legalize drunk driving, okay how about making any accident which results in a fatality caused by a drunk driver a capitol crime with a mandatory death sentence?


Fine with me.


They should do it anyway.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 1:03:55 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 67riviera:
Okay. Scoop shovel or pitchfork?
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Originally Posted By 67riviera:
Originally Posted By Darkhorse55:
Anybody that thinks this guy has a valid point, please come pick the next dead five year old up out of the road for me that was killed by a drunk driver and let's see how you feel about it.
Okay. Scoop shovel or pitchfork?



In before NorCal
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 1:05:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/11/2015 1:06:18 AM EST by Bronze]
What I find interested is that the legal limit is .08. And to my understanding that number is what says you are or are not intoxicated. Now even if you blow less than a .08 meaning "not to intoxicated to operate a motor vehicle", you can still be arrested, taken to jail, lose your license because an officer deems you "impaired".

It seems to go against the rule of law that says over .08 and you go to jail......but if your under, you can still go to jail. Isnt that why the limit is put in place to begin with? "dont exceed X and you arent breaking the law".

I see it happen all the time here.
Link Posted: 1/11/2015 1:06:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/11/2015 1:08:06 AM EST by GunnerBrody]
At the end of the day, "drunk driving" doesn't have to be illegal. If you stop a driver who is exhibiting the same driving habits as a typical drunk driver, they have already broken several traffic laws. So, arrest them for public intoxication and take them to jail. Drunk drivers are going to get on the road either way. Much like we talk about not adding gun control laws, just enforce what we have, the same approach can be used to deal with drunk driving.

I don't know anyone who has had a DUI/DWI arrest and changed their lives. They just run the risk and now know what lawyers to call and how much it will cost to get out of the charges and effects. Prior to his death my uncle had at least 5 DWI arrests and did not have a driver's license. It didn't stop him from drinking two cases of beer a night and driving a car.
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