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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 3/23/2006 4:35:02 PM EDT
If you sell a gun face-to-face to someone you don't know, are you setting yourself up for a world of hurt if the gun you sell is eventually misused by the buyer? Or does it not matter as long as you personally have no reason to suspect he's a felon/underage/etc?

Does writing up/having him sign a waiver help at all in this regard?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:35:36 PM EDT

Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:42:51 PM EDT
You can get fill-in-the-blank forms online, can't find one at the moment of course. Has things like name, D/L number (reasonable belief that person is in-state), serial number, etc.

And of course good old common sense, ever hear the phrase "hotter than a two-dollar pistol"?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 5:19:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By XJ:
You can get fill-in-the-blank forms online, can't find one at the moment of course. Has things like name, D/L number (reasonable belief that person is in-state), serial number, etc.

And of course good old common sense, ever hear the phrase "hotter than a two-dollar pistol"?



Cool, I'll try looking for those.

In the meantime, here's what I wrote up myself:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is to certify that I, (please print)____________________________________, on the date of ______________________, fully agree to purchase 1 (one) _________________________________________, serial number #________________________________________, from it’s lawful previous owner, _________________________________________, and accept full, lawful ownership and responsibilities thereof. I further agree to in no way hold the aforementioned previous owner responsible for any misuse or injury involving this firearm, regardless of whether the cause of such misuse or injury is a result of my actions, the actions of another person, a defect—of any kind—in the weapon itself, a combination of any of this causalities, or for any other reason. I furthermore accept full legal and civil responsibility for any misuse or injury that occurs as a result of this firearm while it is in my possession. By signing this document, I also hereby declare that I am over twenty-one years of age, that I have never been convicted of a felony, that I am a lawful resident of the United States and the State of Minnesota, that I am in sound mental condition, that I have never been involuntarily committed to a mental institution, that I am not under the influence of any mind-altering substance at the time this document was both read and signed, and that I meet all other requirements by the United States and the State of Minnesota to purchase this firearm. I also hereby agree to not in any way hold the previous owner of this firearm responsible for any failure on my part to release any pertinent information that could, in any way, affect the eligibility my purchasing this firearm.

Signed: __________________________________________ Date: __________________

Driver's license number: ___________________________________________________


Previous owner:
Signed: __________________________________________ Date: __________________


----------------------------------------------

Would a form like the one I made above do me any good at all in court?

Thanks
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 5:22:20 PM EDT
that form looks pretty good. the law says soemthing like you need to use "due dilligence" in making sure that it is a legal sale. getting a DL # or something usually covers that, and try to avoid selling to homies that roll up in a 92 Impala on 24's...
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 5:23:51 PM EDT
In Ohio...Doesn't matter.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 6:03:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 6:05:11 PM EDT by OBird]
I suppose I'd need a witness to sign the thing as well, either that or have it notarized, wouldn't I?

If the deal is taking place at a gun show, would having some random dealer do the whole 4473 background check on him for a normal FFL transfer fee remove any liability from me? Would that even be legal?

Thanks
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 6:04:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OBird:
I suppose I'd need a witness to sign the thing as well, either that or have it notarized, wouldn't I?



You don't NEED any of those, but if you want - you can.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 6:08:02 PM EDT
There is no liability selling FTF.
It is one last bastion of freedom, don't screw it up by creating a paper trail.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:19:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OBird:

Originally Posted By XJ:
You can get fill-in-the-blank forms online, can't find one at the moment of course. Has things like name, D/L number (reasonable belief that person is in-state), serial number, etc.

And of course good old common sense, ever hear the phrase "hotter than a two-dollar pistol"?



Cool, I'll try looking for those.

In the meantime, here's what I wrote up myself:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is to certify that I, (please print)____________________________________, on the date of ______________________, fully agree to purchase 1 (one) _________________________________________, serial number #________________________________________, from it’s lawful previous owner, _________________________________________, and accept full, lawful ownership and responsibilities thereof. I further agree to in no way hold the aforementioned previous owner responsible for any misuse or injury involving this firearm, regardless of whether the cause of such misuse or injury is a result of my actions, the actions of another person, a defect—of any kind—in the weapon itself, a combination of any of this causalities, or for any other reason. I furthermore accept full legal and civil responsibility for any misuse or injury that occurs as a result of this firearm while it is in my possession. By signing this document, I also hereby declare that I am over twenty-one years of age, that I have never been convicted of a felony, that I am a lawful resident of the United States and the State of Minnesota, that I am in sound mental condition, that I have never been involuntarily committed to a mental institution, that I am not under the influence of any mind-altering substance at the time this document was both read and signed, and that I meet all other requirements by the United States and the State of Minnesota to purchase this firearm. I also hereby agree to not in any way hold the previous owner of this firearm responsible for any failure on my part to release any pertinent information that could, in any way, affect the eligibility my purchasing this firearm.

Signed: __________________________________________ Date: __________________

Driver's license number: ___________________________________________________


Previous owner:
Signed: __________________________________________ Date: __________________


----------------------------------------------

Would a form like the one I made above do me any good at all in court?

Thanks




if you're so stressed about it, why not you and him go into a FFL dealer and do the paperwork......That's basically what you'd be asking him to sign.........you're asking the buyer to swear that he/she doesn't have any of the prohibitive criteria apply to them.......
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:24:00 PM EDT
Unless the gun is reported stolen, known to be stolen, or the Serial# is filed it is legit in Louisiana.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:26:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalMan:
There is no liability selling FTF.
It is one last bastion of freedom, don't screw it up by creating a paper trail.



+1
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:29:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalMan:
There is no liability selling FTF.
It is one last bastion of freedom, don't screw it up by creating a paper trail.



Amen.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 5:33:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 3:00:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 7:12:40 PM EDT
If you don't feel comfortable doing FTF deals then don't do them.

If I ever met someone for a deal and felt uncomfortable I figure I would hand them some money for gas depending on their drive time and call the deal off.

I have never had a problem and I have bought stuff from people who put ads in the local newspaper as well as meeting several folks from several boards over the years.

I generally ask to be shown a drivers license, I want to verify the face and state the license is from. Since I lived close to a border of my state I did not want to worry about someone coming from another state to buy a handgun from me. I don't even care if I hold the license, and I certainly don't want to read all the info and memorize anything. I want to know that I am doing a deal with someone from my state since that is all I consider a potential problem.

I know if someone asked me if I was willing to fill out a form during a FTF deal I would call the deal off right there.

Learn your specific laws. Don't go by what others tell you, look them up and go from there.

One gun store I used to go to made a big deal about me keeping the receipt that showed I had sold a gun to them. They said if I did not have that I would be in big trouble if the gun turned up later in a crime or something. There is no law they could show me saying such a thing, it became "good advice" and what not.

I have been told by some folks that my wanting to see their license is excessive, I tell them that I am not comfortable otherwise and normally the deal is ended before it starts.

Work with your comfort level, but also know the specific laws and look them up for yourself.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 7:59:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 8:02:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalMan:
There is no liability selling FTF.
It is one last bastion of freedom, don't screw it up by creating a paper trail.



Fucking right!
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 8:05:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OBird:
If you sell a gun face-to-face to someone you don't know, are you setting yourself up for a world of hurt if the gun you sell is eventually misused by the buyer? Or does it not matter as long as you personally have no reason to suspect he's a felon/underage/etc?

Does writing up/having him sign a waiver help at all in this regard?



You're not liable for what he does with it...

If you're worried, have him sign a sales contract stating that he is not a felon and not prohibited....
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 8:08:28 AM EDT
Good form, but why the 21 age limit?

The federal law that prohibits purchases of handguns for persons under 21 only prohibits such purchases from FFLs. So you can actually legally buy a handgun before the age of 21 as long as it is not from a licensed dealer, pursuant to your state's laws, of course.

And rifles can be bought at age 18 anyways.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 10:14:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalMan:
There is no liability selling FTF.
It is one last bastion of freedom, don't screw it up by creating a paper trail.


Why take the chance of not protecting yourself with a Bill of Sale. How are you going to prove who you sold it to when the police show up at your door at 4AM wanting to know where said gun is. You are guilty until proven innocent these days, instead of the other way around unfortunately. You going to let the police search your house looking for that gun, I'd rather hand 'em a copy of a Bill of Sale showing who I sold it to and their last known address according to their Driver's license. According to the FBI you're the last known owner of said gun, remember the 4473 you filled out to purchase it. I do and don't need any hassles trying to prove my innocence.

Here in Oregon, FTF transaction can be done without a NICS as long as they are a resident and you don't suspect they can't own a gun legally, you can even sell to somebody out of state, FTF, as long as you know them. I like to call it covering my ass, I trust nobody. This Bill of Sale covers just about anything from guns to vehicles, also protects the Buyer, how does he know I'm not trying to sell him a stolen gun. If a person is a little paranoid about a prospective Buyer, you can always do the NICS background check yourself, I don't think you don't have to be a FFL to utilize this service.

If you can't show me your driver's license proving your residency and won't allow me to put it on the Bill of Sale, No Sale.

Bill of Sale




For value received, the undersigned,_____________________________ (Seller), hereby sells and transfers unto ________________________ (Buyer), the following described goods:
___________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________________________

Seller warrants and represents that he has full ownership to said goods, full authority to sell and transfer the same and that to seller"s knowledge, said goods are being sold free and clear of all liens, encumbrances, liabilities and adverse claims of every nature and description.

It is provided, however, the Seller disclaims any implied warranty of condition, merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose. Said goods are being sold in its present condition "as-is" and "where-is".

Signed this ________ day of ___________________, 2006



________________________________________
(Buyer) Date


_________________________________________
(Seller) Date
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 10:41:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Orygunman:

Originally Posted By TacticalMan:
There is no liability selling FTF.
It is one last bastion of freedom, don't screw it up by creating a paper trail.


Why take the chance of not protecting yourself with a Bill of Sale.



A Bill of Sale won't protect the seller. You don't have access to any criminal databases. You can never know what somebody did in the past. And you sure aren't going to know what they will do in the future. Prisons are full of people "you'd never have thought would do that". Hell, one nice preacher's wife just capped her husband the preacher. Who'da thunk?



How are you going to prove who you sold it to when the police show up at your door at 4AM wanting to know where said gun is.



What? Do you think your gun is going to leave it's make, model, serial number at a crime scene? Plus your name and address?

Explain to me, step-by-step how this would happen.

My thinking cap must be a little loose today. Maybe it needs some tin foil.



This Bill of Sale ... also protects the Buyer, how does he know I'm not trying to sell him a stolen gun.



Trouble is, unless you purchased the gun brand-spanking new from an FFL, you have NO way to tell if a gun is stolen. In that case, it is worthless to the buyer. Gun would still be confiscated if the law determined it to be stolen.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 10:42:58 AM EDT
I'm not filling out paper work to buy anything in a face to face sale other then property with a title. I don't fill it out for hammers, power tools, lawn equipment, or anything else. I'd walk out the door if some party wants to write down and keep my DL number. I can understand looking to verify if I'm in state, but you can keep your gun if you want me to fill out your own personal 4473.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 11:06:40 AM EDT
Not aimed at anyone particular here, but what's the big deal about having to put your name and drivers license # down on a bill of sale? You would have to do it at a gun store.

It seems to me, that a bill of sale would be a common courtesy to the seller . It also seems prudent that the seller should know who his guns have been sold to if the police ever come knocking.

If you can't put your name down on a piece of paper, maybe you shouldn't be buying guns.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 11:47:43 AM EDT
Info can backfire.

In past threads I have asked about fake IDs and what not. If they are good enough to buy beer then who am I to know if they are real or not? Ohio has had more than one instance where the DMV was selling incorrect IDs to people, they were not really fakes since they were the real deal but had bad info on them. I grew up in ohio and recently left that state so I consider what I know for my local area.

My biggest thing with someone having some of the info off my driver's license is that I don't know how that info will be kept.

Most threads have folks say they keep that file in their gun safe, and I read about a lot of folks who have guns stolen because they left their safe unlocked.

If someone gets my info they can possably find enough other info to go get credit cards in my name or who knows what.

I dislike filling out forms when I go to the doctor or open a bank account, no way am I going to give info to someone I do not know.

I know some parents let their kids have the safe combo, the kid is old enough and responsable as far as the parent is concerned.

What if that kid or their friend gets ahold of my info?

I personally don't see where getting that info can truly sheild you from any future problems if your former firearm is used and recovered at a crime scene. I can see where it may help, but I am not going to be responsalbe for keeping anyone's info safe and I sure as heck don't trust anyone to keep my info safe.

Someone highlighted the most important parts of my last post. I still think they are the most important things to consider.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 11:47:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By konger:
Not aimed at anyone particular here, but what's the big deal about having to put your name and drivers license # down on a bill of sale? You would have to do it at a gun store.

It seems to me, that a bill of sale would be a common courtesy to the seller . It also seems prudent that the seller should know who his guns have been sold to if the police ever come knocking.

If you can't put your name down on a piece of paper, maybe you shouldn't be buying guns.




I guess I won't be buying from you. Since it wasn't aimed at anyone particular here I guess we can all take offense to your comment? If you don't want to sell to me that's fine. If I don't want to fill out papers that's fine too. Where you get off throwing around doubts as to my fitness to own a weapon I don't know.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 12:22:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalMan:
There is no liability selling FTF.
It is one last bastion of freedom, don't screw it up by creating a paper trail.



+10
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 12:28:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalMan:
There is no liability selling FTF.
It is one last bastion of freedom, don't screw it up by creating a paper trail.



+ eleventy bajillion
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 12:30:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 1:05:56 PM EDT by ARHighPower]
Of course there is a liability in selling a firearm, there is a liability in selling an apple. Whoever is saying there is no liability is full of it.


If something were to happen and that firearm was found on or near the scene of a crime, or later found and linked to the crime, it is DEFINITELY going to help to have some type of proof that you no longer own it, as well as a lead to the person who more likely committed the crime.




Originally Posted By TacticalMan:

What? Do you think your gun is going to leave it's make, model, serial number at a crime scene? Plus your name and address?

Explain to me, step-by-step how this would happen.

It's make, model, and serial number can be read off of the firearm if it is left at the scene of the crime or later found and connected with that crime (which is common).
Your name and address comes right after they contact the manufacturer to see what dealer that firearm was sold to, then go to the dealer and see who they sold it to (where they find your name and address). That was easy, now wasn't it?


My thinking cap must be a little loose today.

Apparently so, in your first question and certainly in the next:



A Bill of Sale won't protect the seller.

It most certainly will. When you are questioned for the crime, a bill of sale will provide proof that you no longer own the firearm.

Here is the form to be filled out in my state, which is usually considered very tough on gun laws. This form does not include SS or driver's license numbers, nor does it have to be given to any city, state, or federal agency. The buyer and the seller simply keep the form in case it's ever needed in the future.

www.state.nj.us/njsp/info/pdf/firearms/sp-634.pdf

Believe it or not I just sold a firearm to another NJ resident today by FTF transfer. He now has a copy of that form with my information on it, which is nothing more than he could have found by looking in the phone book (except the FID number which won't do anyone any good).

Link Posted: 3/25/2006 2:20:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalMan:
There is no liability selling FTF.
It is one last bastion of freedom, don't screw it up by creating a paper trail.


Might want to change the first sentence
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 2:23:39 PM EDT
I bought a sig FTF last weekend, I printed out a couple copies of a Bill of Sale (one for him,one for me) but he didn't care for a copy. The one I used is now linked to in the EE "tool box" Look on the questions and comments forum there if you'd like to see it.
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