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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 4/8/2006 3:31:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/9/2006 2:51:25 PM EDT by motown_steve]
I have a situation developing from a deal on EE that is literally causing me to lose sleep. Here is the deal. I had an Olympic Arms AR that I was offereing on EE. I was contacted by a board member in NY who indicated that he wanted to buy the rifle. The rifle was in a No Ban configuration, and NY has a state AWB which mirrors the 1994 federal AWB.

I tried contacting Olympic Arms to see if they could tell me whether or not the rifle was manufactured prior to September of 1994, but Olympic told me that they had lost their records in a fire and could not tell me if the rifle was manufactured prior to September 1994. After some haggling I agreed to sell the lower to the board member from NY. My thinking was that the lower itself was not a violation of NY's AWB, since it did not have enough evil features to meet the requirements of the ban. The member from NY agreed and is sending me a money order and an FFL copy for the FFL that the lower is to be shipped to.

Well, ever since I agreed to sell the lower this has been eating away at me. I have literally lost sleep over this issue. I am having visions of some libtard prosecutor with a bug up their ass deciding that it is time to get tough on guns, etc. etc. and trying to make an example out of me for shipping this lower into the state. So, here are my questions:

1. If I send this lower to an FFL in the state of New York and the FFL transfers this lower to the board member there, am I absolved of any futher involvement or legal liability?

2. Is it the responsability of the FFL in NY and the board member in NY to ensure that this firearm is compliant with NY state laws, or am I responsible to ensure that I do not ship an illegal firearm into the state?

3. If this guy slaps a no ban upper on this lower and creates a weapon that is illegal under NY state law, am I an accomplice to any crimes?

4. Should I just send this guy his money back (when it comes) and never respond to another e-mail from outside of Texas?

5. Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill?

I have alot to lose here, if I wind up inadvertantly breaking the law. Ignorance of the law is not a defense to criminal activity and I definately do not know all of the ins and outs of NY state firearms laws. Ever since I agreed to sell this lower I have been having visions of some prosecutor with a bug up his ass trying to make an example out of me, dragging me up to NY to put me on trail and then having to do some time in the slam. I could lose my job, my house, my car, my ability to own a gun, my ability to make a living in my field (they don't hire convited felons in the field I am in) and if I were put on parole or probation I could wind up having to leave Texas and live in NY under the terms of my parole or probation. I am sick over this, and I don't know how to get out of it.

Am I just being paranoid?
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 3:36:45 PM EDT
I would do number 4. I'm sure someone in New York will be along shortly to tell me what a terrible person I am.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 3:52:01 PM EDT
I say fuck it, go ahead and do the deal. First off you are sending a lower only, if their ban is just like the Federal one than he can make it into a post ban. IF he makes it into a pre ban config, and IF he gets questioned then the state has to prove that it was a post ban receiver. Since all the records are gone, how are they going to do that? I am sure that Bushmaster, Colt etc, send post ban type AR's to NY all the time. Once it is out of your hands it is the responsibility of the current owner to follow the laws of his state!
Do the deal.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 3:54:55 PM EDT

2. Is it the responsability of the FFL in NY and the board member in NY to ensure that this firearm is compliant with NY state laws


This is your answer. Unless you materially misrepresented the rifle as being Pre-Ban when it wasn't, you are fine to go ahead with the sale of the lower.

AFARR
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 3:55:58 PM EDT
Personally I wouldnt do the deal, but then again I am paraniod about that kind of shit

I would refund him the money + some possibly and offer a public apology. You may take a lump or two for it, just be prepared for that.

Link Posted: 4/8/2006 4:10:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By uafgrad:
Personally I wouldnt do the deal, but then again I am paraniod about that kind of shit

I would refund him the money + some possibly and offer a public apology. You may take a lump or two for it, just be prepared for that.




That's the direction that I am leaning towards...HEAVILY!
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 4:16:32 PM EDT
Relax, you're too wound up over nothing. Once the rifle -or lower- is transfered to the new owner in NY you are no longer responsible for it, and certainly not responsible for anything one of us NY'ers do to -or with- the weapon, once we take custody of it.

Send the man his rifle and get some rest brother.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 4:31:05 PM EDT
So as far as you know the rifle is a preban right?

Link Posted: 4/8/2006 4:33:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/8/2006 4:35:42 PM EDT by NimmerMehr]
If a preban rifle is dis-assembled and only the lower is shipped to NY, will it still count as a preban?


Edit: "IF he gets questioned then the state has to prove that it was a post ban receiver"

I though it was the other way around. The owner has to prove the weapon meets the grandfather requeirments.

Link Posted: 4/8/2006 4:46:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
So as far as you know the rifle is a preban right?




I don't know.

What will the law say? Will they say that I was required to ensure that it was a preban receiver before shipping it to the state? Will they say that since there is no record with the manufacturer that I cannot prove that it is a preban receiver? Or will they ask the BATFE for their manufacturing records on this receiver and determine that is actually is not a preban receiver and then really have me over a barrel?

I think I've made up my mind on this one. Better to be safe than sorry.
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 5:04:53 PM EDT
As someone else posted....

No2 is the correct answer.

What's the big deal, it's a lower. It's up to the buyer to follow the laws of his state. You ship it to the FFL and you are good to go.

Get the man his lower!
Link Posted: 4/8/2006 5:24:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
So as far as you know the rifle is a preban right?




I don't know.

What will the law say? Will they say that I was required to ensure that it was a preban receiver before shipping it to the state? Will they say that since there is no record with the manufacturer that I cannot prove that it is a preban receiver? Or will they ask the BATFE for their manufacturing records on this receiver and determine that is actually is not a preban receiver and then really have me over a barrel?

I think I've made up my mind on this one. Better to be safe than sorry.



Safe from what?? You are selling someone a lower that's legal to own..in most of NY.

The lower will not be in violation of NY State Law unless it's a post '94(by mfg date) and has a collapsible stock on it. If you want to send a post '94 lower to NY you have to make sure it has a non-collapsible stock installed, or has no stock on it. You can always send a collapsible stock in the same package as the lower, provided it's not installed.
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 3:00:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/9/2006 3:04:22 PM EDT by motown_steve]
UPDATE:

I did a little further investigation this afternoon, and I made a discovery that clarifies the entire situation for me. According to the New York State Penal Code Section 265.00, Definition 22:


"Assault Weapon" means (d) any of the weapons, or functioning frames of receivers of such weapons, or copies or duplicates of such weapons, in any caliber, known as: (iv) Colt AR-15;


Also, according to Section 265.10 (2)


Any person who transports or ships any machine-gun, firearm silencer, assault weapon or large capacity ammunition feeding device or disguised gun, or who transports or ships as merchandise five or more firearms, is guilty of a class D felony. Any person who transports or ships as merchandise any firearm, other than an assault weapon, switchblade knife, gravity knife, pilum ballistic knife, billy, blackjack, bludgeon, metal knuckles, Kung Fu star, chuka stick, sandbag or slungshot is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.


It seems pretty obvious to me that a lower receiver for an Olympic Arms "AR" is a functioning receiver for a copy of a Colt AR-15 and that shipping said receiver to the State of New York constitutes commission of a Class D felony. Since I cannot prove that the receiver was manufactured prior to October 1, 1993 there is no exemption for this lower. I have but one option, and that is to refund the guy his money. It sucks, but that is life.

Here is my reference. Please leave it cold.

http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/web/NewYork/ny3(b).htm
Link Posted: 4/9/2006 3:40:12 PM EDT
Just an FYI: Post ban configuration AR-15 type rifles are QUITE legal here, as are preban rifles made and possessed by anyone, anywhere, before 14 Sept 1994. Stripped lowers being built as post ban rifles would also be legal. None of which applies to NYC.

Regarding this rifle, I think motown_steve made the best choice. He couldn't sell it as a verified preban, and it isn't worth the trouble to convert it to postban.

More from that same law:


From www.nysrpa.org/nygunlaws.htm :

So called "assault weapons" lawfully possessed prior to September 14, 1994 and "large capacity ammunition feeding devices" manufactured prior to such date are grandfathered.

An "assault weapon" means (a) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following characteristics: (i) a folding or telescoping stock; (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (iii) a bayonet mount; (iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; (v) a grenade launcher



Link Posted: 4/9/2006 3:44:13 PM EDT
if you don't know if it's preban, then you have to assume it's postban. tell the guy to put a postban upper on it (no bayo lug/flash hider) and it will be a perfectly legal postban AR.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 5:50:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
UPDATE:

I did a little further investigation this afternoon, and I made a discovery that clarifies the entire situation for me. According to the New York State Penal Code Section 265.00, Definition 22:


"Assault Weapon" means (d) any of the weapons, or functioning frames of receivers of such weapons, or copies or duplicates of such weapons, in any caliber, known as: (iv) Colt AR-15;


Also, according to Section 265.10 (2)


Any person who transports or ships any machine-gun, firearm silencer, assault weapon or large capacity ammunition feeding device or disguised gun, or who transports or ships as merchandise five or more firearms, is guilty of a class D felony. Any person who transports or ships as merchandise any firearm, other than an assault weapon, switchblade knife, gravity knife, pilum ballistic knife, billy, blackjack, bludgeon, metal knuckles, Kung Fu star, chuka stick, sandbag or slungshot is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.


It seems pretty obvious to me that a lower receiver for an Olympic Arms "AR" is a functioning receiver for a copy of a Colt AR-15 and that shipping said receiver to the State of New York constitutes commission of a Class D felony. Since I cannot prove that the receiver was manufactured prior to October 1, 1993 there is no exemption for this lower. I have but one option, and that is to refund the guy his money. It sucks, but that is life.

Here is my reference. Please leave it cold.

http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/web/NewYork/ny3(b).htm



Steve, I don't fully understand your decision, but it's yours to make.

From your post you indicated that you couldn't verify the weapon as a preban, but you also said the lower itself didn't have enough features on it to make it a SAW. I'm a little confused, was the lower being sold as a preban lower, and did it have a collapsible stock on it? If both answers are yes, then you did the right thing because it's not verifiable and that's vitally important to NY members. If both answers are no then you could have sold the lower, but only as a postban. You weren't clear about the conditions of the sale so I can't really say if your decision was based on NY law.

The laws you posted are correct, but only relevant to post '94 SAW's. If the NY buyer wanted a preban lower then he needs some verification such a serial number that can be checked, an original dated sales receipt etc. or he could be charged with possession of a post '94 SAW which is a D Felony..and with our new federalized police task force on guns they would probably be knocking on your door looking for the seller.

<­BR>





j/k Steve, they wouldn't actually knock on your door, they would just crash it at 4 am.

Good Luck brother, just razzing you a little.
Link Posted: 4/10/2006 6:06:50 PM EDT
Steve - You sending this lower to NY is no different than sending a post-94 lower to NY. The only time any law would be broken is if the buyer mounts a pre-ban/no-ban upper on this lower without being able to prove its pre-94 status. That would only be a violation of NY state law for the buyer himself. This has no bearing on you, as you're selling a legal firearm lower receiver with no claim as to its ban status. Even if it's truly not pre-94, as long as the buyer mounts a post-ban upper, it's 100% legal.

That said, it's your decision to make. If it were me, as long as I'm not in violation of any of my own state's laws or any applicable federal laws, I'd have no problem with the sale. The buyer is responsible for obeying his own state's laws. Do what you think is right.
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