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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 7/28/2002 7:51:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 7:52:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 7:54:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 8:08:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 8:12:12 AM EDT
I'm all for retrieving the bodies of fallen comrades, but at what price? If it jeopardizes the living fighters, and thus the "cause", then it's counter-productive.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 8:15:52 AM EDT
Well, frankly, I cannot say what I would do in such a situation. I've never been faced with it, having never been in battle. I understand the desire to bring back the body of a fallen comrade, but I also understand that under some circumstances such an attempt might be pure folly and only add to the number of dead and dying. Get out of harm's way first, then calculate what the costs would be for retrieving the body. Surely the combat would end at some point. [b]Good question:[/b] If the dead body was yours, how many men would you want to die in attempting to retrieve your lifeless body? My answer would be none. The Lord would have everything of me by then that I cared about. The 'package' will serve me no further use at all in this present world. But the best answer is: Don't let your friends die in the first place! Let the enemy question whether they should retrieve [u]their[/u] dead! Eric The(Thoughtful)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 8:16:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 8:19:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2002 8:19:53 AM EDT by toaster]
Bring him home. His family would appreciate your efforts. -T.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 8:22:04 AM EDT
its hard for some civvies to understand. there isnt an explanation for this. its just what warriors do.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 8:22:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 8:25:22 AM EDT
Retrieving and rescuing are 2 far different things. How do you rescue a dead body? From what are you rescuing him from? You rescue a wounded fighter. You also make sure all the dead are brought back home when you can and when it is reasonably safe.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 8:27:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 8:28:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By toaster: Bring him home. His family would appreciate your efforts. -T.
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Would they think it was worth the DEATH of someone else's son to retrieve his CORPSE??
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 8:33:42 AM EDT
Leave him. He's not worth dying for
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Seems to me this option is phrased in a classic propaganda style. There is NO "Him" in a CORPSE! "He's" only worth the SACRIFICE of more lives if "He's" still there. "He" ain't in his body anymore!
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 8:35:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2002 8:37:20 AM EDT by toaster]
Originally Posted By liberty86:
Originally Posted By toaster: Bring him home. His family would appreciate your efforts. -T.
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Would they think it was worth the DEATH of someone else's son to retrieve his CORPSE??
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If it were my son who gave his life while trying to retrieve his friends CORPSE, I would greive for my child, but I would know that he died for a friend. And I would be very proud to call him my son. -T.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 8:38:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 8:38:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 8:47:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By kpel308: Other people may not see it that way, Duncan. I assure you that I do not. I did not intentionally "propagandize" that statement. I reiterated my impression of what was being said in the other thread, and I tried to phrase the two choices similarly.
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Thanks for your response kpel, and I aprieciate the calm manner in which you responded to my post, given the emotions this topic generates. I have risked my life in the past to save others, but I do not think I would do the same if I knew my buddy was dead. I would try to get those who got him, go back with overwhelming force yes, but in the heat of battle risk all for a corpse? No. Nor, (if I was commander), would I expend combat assets for the dead.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 8:49:43 AM EDT
its amazing to me that anyone would have to think about that. its not so much id want my body retreived. its about your family and closure. its also about brotherhood and not leaving your COMRADE OF ARMS behind. i hope id never have to share the same battlefield with someone who would leave my body behind to be defiled by the enemy and the pain my family would feel in knowing that.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 8:53:02 AM EDT
Just two words: Semper Fidelis. [i][b][size=5]Always[/size=5] Faithful.[/b][/i]
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 8:59:14 AM EDT
There's certainly an unwritten rule that you don't leave anybody behind, but there's also an unwritten (and written) rule that the mission is more important than any one person. If you're in an eight man squad and one man goes down, you might be able to extract his body without jeopardizing the mission. But what if another goes down? And then one more? And more after that? What's the last man supposed to do- carry seven bodies out with him?
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 9:03:22 AM EDT
Considering what the Somalis did to the bodies of our men that did get left behind in the "Mog", I would surely risk my life to not leave the body of a fallen brother in the hands of the enemy. I hope that the men I was fighting with would do the same for me... lest my kids see the corpse of their father swollen and being drug down the streets of some shithole country.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 9:05:19 AM EDT
Bring them home. It has been thirty years ago, but people are still searching in Vietnam.. Bring them home. I wouldn't want anyone comming after me, but I would damn sure go after someone else if it was at all plausible. Assumming you weren't in the middle of a firefight. I mean you are already in a war , you could die at any time anyways, so you might as well go after those guys so that they won't be left behind. You still get to kill the enemy and its still part of the same battle in most cases. And when it comes to the scenario in Black Hawk Down those Rangers weren't going anywhere anyways. Ben
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 9:16:22 AM EDT
I am here from that other thread. As for me like I said bobby trap my body and let me go on killing the enemy. But I get the take that for some guys it is really important that there body be returned to family. If this was the case with I guy I served with, I would like to think I would do my best to bring him back.(but I do not feel I would want my buds ever getting hurt to get my body, leave me for the buzzards)It just is not a big deal for me, and is something I would discuss with family before or while in the combat zone to make them understand, and they would. Anyway like I said, if it was a big deal for a friend in combat I would do my best to honor his feelings. That is one thing you cannot escape, his last wishes. But to make it part of a Creed , again, it is a no win debate as some say yes get my body , and some say forget it, take care of yourself old friend.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 9:37:34 AM EDT
You're only assuming dead because that was the premise of the question. How do you really know he is dead? Yeah, I know, you see him blown all apart. Not always that simple. If you are close enough to be sure he's dead, then most likely you can get him and bring him back. If you're not close enough to be sure, then you aren't sure, are you? Then, you had better assume he's a live brother in arms. You don't intend to leave live ones, do you? Unlike "certain" administrations for "expediency" or future "opportunities." Guys bailing out of burning aircraft could be assumed dead. But some Marines assumed otherwise and came and got me. Thanks guys.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 9:43:45 AM EDT
I have not served in the military (yet...I'm still young though). However, I have watched several friends discuss this EXACT topic. They are current USMC officers and one recently discharged NCO. Basically what they agreed is that it helps EVERYONE fight better and do their job if they KNOW that no matter what happens, they will come home (even it it's as a corpse). They know that come hell or high water, their buddies will not leave them. They also all agreed, however, that the heat of a firefight may not be the time to go in and grab your fallen comrade if he's not in any immediate danger of being taken or otherwise desecrated. Win the battle, kick the crap out of the guys that killed him, THEN go bring him home.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 9:47:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By how: You're only assuming dead because that was the premise of the question. How do you really know he is dead? Yeah, I know, you see him blown all apart. Not always that simple. If you are close enough to be sure he's dead, then most likely you can get him and bring him back. If you're not close enough to be sure, then you aren't sure, are you? Then, you had better assume he's a live brother in arms. You don't intend to leave live ones, do you? Unlike "certain" administrations for "expediency" or future "opportunities." Guys bailing out of burning aircraft could be assumed dead. But some Marines assumed otherwise and came and got me. Thanks guys.
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Well if his f***ing head is gone I would make a wild ass guess and say he was dead. Or if his upper body ,or lower body was gone, again I would make a wild ass guess and say he was dead, I will say one thing how many people on this thread have even seen a dead person, not someone at a funeral parlor , I mean a messed up body. Come on if we are going to be real about this, if there is a chance , it is a rescue. If the guy is dead, well you can pretty much tell" most "of the time.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 9:49:43 AM EDT
Ok, so let me see if I get this straight: Your buddy is good enough to drink with, good enough to train with, good enough to sweat with, good enough to fight with, good enough to bleed with, you place your trust and life in his arms and his in yours, but some how when he is dead-he is not good enough to bleed for, he is not good enough to bring back home, the very home he was sent to defend, the same home he died for, the people he died defending it for, even yourself. If you cannot give everything you have to honor the memory and sacrifice of your buddy, then I do not know what you are fighting for. You discredit all that America and her warriors stand for.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 9:58:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BYU: Ok, so let me see if I get this straight: Your buddy is good enough to drink with, good enough to train with, good enough to sweat with, good enough to fight with, good enough to bleed with, you place your trust and life in his arms and his in yours, but some how when he is dead-he is not good enough to bleed for, he is not good enough to bring back home, the very home he was sent to defend, the same home he died for, the people he died defending it for, even yourself. If you cannot give everything you have to honor the memory and sacrifice of your buddy, then I do not know what you are fighting for. You discredit all that America and her warriors stand for.
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If it can be done without loss of life fine. "He" is no longer there. His body is 180 pounds of MEAT! NOT worth a life! America stands for "Life, Liberty and......". At least she used too. Now she stands for whatever the NWO crowd wants her to......
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 10:03:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: If it can be done without loss of life fine. "He" is no longer there. His body is 180 pounds of MEAT! NOT worth a life! America stands for "Life, Liberty and......". At least she used too. Now she stands for whatever the NWO crowd wants her to......
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I'm pretty sure that Gen. Washington, Gen. Scott, Gen. Lee, Gen. Grant, or Gen. Patton would make sure that "their men" were recovered if need be. Your buddy Kofi would probably do the same math as you. "what's in it for me............"
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 10:04:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86:
Originally Posted By BYU: Ok, so let me see if I get this straight: Your buddy is good enough to drink with, good enough to train with, good enough to sweat with, good enough to fight with, good enough to bleed with, you place your trust and life in his arms and his in yours, but some how when he is dead-he is not good enough to bleed for, he is not good enough to bring back home, the very home he was sent to defend, the same home he died for, the people he died defending it for, even yourself. If you cannot give everything you have to honor the memory and sacrifice of your buddy, then I do not know what you are fighting for. You discredit all that America and her warriors stand for.
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If it can be done without loss of life fine. "He" is no longer there. His body is 180 pounds of MEAT! NOT worth a life! America stands for "Life, Liberty and......". At least she used too. Now she stands for whatever the NWO crowd wants her to......
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Well, if you have never served or don't plan on it, then you will have nothing to worry about. If you are not a ranger and don't plan on being one, then you have nothing to worry about. Otherwise this is an esoteric arguement between people who know what the score is and those who are still sitting on the sidelines. Your point is moot, and the creed still rings true in the hearts of America's warriors. There is nothing that your pillow-bitting, lolly-pop licking, limp-wristed, nancy boy pissing and moaning will accomplish. Get over you so-called mental superiority and let those who will serve and sacrifice do it with out your criticism.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 10:16:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 11:53:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BYU:
Originally Posted By liberty86:
Originally Posted By BYU: Ok, so let me see if I get this straight: Your buddy is good enough to drink with, good enough to train with, good enough to sweat with, good enough to fight with, good enough to bleed with, you place your trust and life in his arms and his in yours, but some how when he is dead-he is not good enough to bleed for, he is not good enough to bring back home, the very home he was sent to defend, the same home he died for, the people he died defending it for, even yourself. If you cannot give everything you have to honor the memory and sacrifice of your buddy, then I do not know what you are fighting for. You discredit all that America and her warriors stand for.
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If it can be done without loss of life fine. "He" is no longer there. His body is 180 pounds of MEAT! NOT worth a life! America stands for "Life, Liberty and......". At least she used too. Now she stands for whatever the NWO crowd wants her to......
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Well, if you have never served or don't plan on it, then you will have nothing to worry about. If you are not a ranger and don't plan on being one, then you have nothing to worry about. Otherwise this is an esoteric arguement between people who know what the score is and those who are still sitting on the sidelines. Your point is moot, and the creed still rings true in the hearts of America's warriors. There is nothing that your pillow-bitting, lolly-pop licking, limp-wristed, nancy boy pissing and moaning will accomplish. Get over you so-called mental superiority and let those who will serve and sacrifice do it with out your criticism.
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I would not criticize you for doing something all your brethren have decided on doing in advance, what I do have feelings for is the further loss of life , for what I consider a non issue, but I see others have a STRONG opinion on this matter that I just can't grasp. I will end by saying the fighting forces of America are a proud unit, and have my respect , and if it is a company policy to leave no man behind and you all agree with this policy I sure as hell have no place to argue it further. Good luck to all those in our Nations Armed Forces, and God Bless.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 12:04:18 PM EDT
Would you retreive the body if it was your Wife? YOUR son? YOUR daughter? YOUR brother? All some of us have are the people we serve with. They are our only family. I would not want them to die to retreive my body, it means little to me in this life. But i could not sleep knowing i had left them behind.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 12:22:12 PM EDT
[b]Honor[/b] - Integrity, responsibility, accountibility. [b]Courage[/b] - Do the right thing, in the right way, for the right reasons. [b]Commitment[/b] - Devotion to the Corps and my fellow Marines. Marines... 1. Obey the law. 2. Lead by example. 3. Respect themselves and others. 4. Maintain a high standard of integrity. 5. Support and defend the Constitution. 6. Uphold special trust and confidence. 7. Place faith and honor above all else. 8. Honor fellow Marines, the Corps, Country, and Family. Nobody is going to be left behind. We came here together, and if necessary we will stay here together, but if one of us makes it home, then we are all going home! Death before Dishonor
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