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Posted: 8/21/2001 4:43:21 AM EDT
[#1]
Are we talking about copper jacketed bullets with an exposed lead base, or a Speer TMJ-type enclosed base?
In the same vein, are the lead bullets with or without gas-checks? TMJ-type bullets and gas-checks either eliminate or greatly reduce (respectively) lead fouling. |
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Posted: 8/21/2001 5:00:53 AM EDT
[#2]
Better bullistics on FMJ, lead will cause bad fouling depending on the type of lead used. if you dont mind the cleaning lead is just cheaper. For home defense use Hydroshocks. The SIG is a good gun, i have 2 of them. I personally prefer FMJ to plink. I relaod alot and use the black bullet to redload with. www.precisionbullets.com .
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Posted: 8/21/2001 5:02:44 AM EDT
[#3]
Here is my .02...
In my experience, Accuracy is more determined by personal gun/load compatibility, rather than the type of projectile. Two .45s I have (1 1911 & SIG P220) are both more accurate with copper jacketed bullets. When I shoot, I shoot [b]A LOT[/b]... so my guns are always filthy - I never could tell the difference in fouling (other than the small amount of lube from lead ammo). Cleaning was actually easier while shooting lead bullets only. As far as recoil is concerned, if there the bullet are the same weight and driven to the same velocity, there should be no difference in recoil whatsoever (physics). I would presume that you are comparing FMJ to LRN bullets, and I would go with FMJ for reliability. If you are including hollowpoints, there really is no comparison. just my observations [:)] Tyler |
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Posted: 8/21/2001 5:04:50 AM EDT
[#4]
I will limit my comments to the 2 handguns that
I have extensive experience with. A S&W model 57 .41 magnum, and a Sigma in .40S&W. Accuracy wise, the .41 likes a 210gr hard cast (linotype) bullet over 7.4 grains of WW231. This particular load is more accurate than any of the JHP or JSP loads I've worked up using ball powders (WW296, H110) for deer hunting, averages right at 1.00" @ 30 yards from the bench. The Sigma prefers ANY copper jacketed bullet over any cast bullet I've tried. Fouling wise, in both handguns the lead bullets foul noticeably quicker (no gas checks) than copper jacketed bullets. Cleaning: For years I used to spend more time scrubbing lead fouling from the rifling of the handguns than I spent shooting them. Then I came across an old-timers remedy for lead removal. Make a 50/50 solution of white vinegar and hydrogen peroxide. Tape the muzzle end of the barrel with electrical tape, and fill the barrel with solution, clear up to the forcing cone. In ten minutes you can literally pour the lead out of the barrel, NO scrubbing req'd. (I just pull the barrel out of my Sigma & drop it in a bowl of solution). For copper fouling, Shooter's Choice or Gold Medallion (I think that's the name) are product I've used that yielded satisfactory results. Recoil wise, lead bullets seem to shoot "softer", even at the same velocity than copper jacketed bullets. (Personal observation based on my perceptions alone.) Self defense suitability: Won't even attempt to back this with statistics, but based on my deer hunting experience, a good JHP is darned hard to beat. I stick with the 210 grainers (I like Hornandy's XTP - it holds together better than the Speer and Sierra when it hits heavy bone.) For the .40, I carry either the 135gr or the 155gr JHP. Nearly all of the rounds I shoot are with cast bullets, with cost being the major factor. When it comes to hunting anything other than small game, or for self defense, it's always a good JHP. -kid |
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Posted: 8/21/2001 7:04:16 AM EDT
[#5]
Accuracy Depends on the load. One is not more accurate than the other unless the velocity is above about 1,100 fps. At such velocity jacket is usually more accurate. Fouling Lead is usually more especially with higher velocity. Cleaning Lead usually leaves more mess and it usually is due to the lube on the bullet. Recoil No difference if the weight of the bullet and the velocity is same. Self-defense suitability Depends on the bullet design. In 38 Special I like 158gr lead hollow point for self defense but in my 9mm and 45ACP I usually use jacketed hollow point. Anything else you can think of. If you reload lead/cast bullets usually cost about 1/4 of jacketed bullets. For this reason, about 90% of my reloads are with lead/cast bullets. |
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Posted: 8/21/2001 7:20:32 AM EDT
[#6]
After having to scrub the hell out of my model 29, because i used to shoot cheapo lead bullets.....I don`t use them any more.....umc`s for practice.....240gr rem soft points or starfire if I can find, for hunting......[:)]
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Posted: 8/21/2001 7:24:06 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: Did a little shooting this weekend with my .40 Sig 229. I used both lead bullets, and copper jacketed. I noticed some definite differences, which I won't tell you about just yet so that I don't affect you responses. So, can someone tell me what the differences are between lead and copper jacketed in teh following areas: [i]Accuracy[/i] - Depends entirely on the load and the gun you're shooting it in. I know of no way to predict the accuracy of any load in any particular gun based on the construction of the projectile. [i]Fouling[/i] - In my experience, lead fouls more - ESPECIALLY if you're pushing on velocity. My experience is that lead bullets in handguns are usually loaded to lower velocity than equivalent weights in jacketed bullets. [i]Cleaning[/i] - Proportional to fouling. If you are so unlucky as to use a load that leads the barrel significantly, you've got a real cleaning job on your hands. Also, the lubricant used on lead bullets is really messy. [i]Recoil[/i] - Since lead is generally loaded to lower velocities, weight for weight, lead loads tend to recoil less. [i]Self-defense suitability[/i] - Since accuracy is more important than anything else, being able to hit what you aim at is my primary criteria for self-defense suitability. Second is bullet performance. I really believe that a well designed jacketed hollowpoint will perform better than most if not all of the cast bullet designs out there, so I'd rather use them. But a 240 gr. .45 LSWC out of a Colt SAA has been an effective manstopper for over 100 years. [i]Anything else you can think of.[/i] - Lead bullets are CHEAP, and if you like to shoot and are on a limited budget they're the way to go. BUT, I don't like the smoke (the lube really increases that) and it makes cleanup a lot harder. Usually when I shoot lead bullets, I'll run a cylinder or magazine full of jacketed rounds down the barrel to "de-lead" it before I come home and clean. Also, jacketed bullets usually require a significant velocity to "perform", whereas soft-cast lead bullets will mushroom at very modest velocities. So, in my 2-1/8" Ruger SP101 I use a soft-cast wadcutter rather than a JHP. But in my Kimber .45 I use the 185 grain Hydra-shoks and I'm looking at the 200 grain Speer Gold Dots. [i]Thanx.[/i] No problem. I'm looking forward to what conclusions you came to. |
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Posted: 8/21/2001 7:29:24 AM EDT
[#8]
OK - here's my observations:
Recoil - the lead bullets showed significantly less recoil. I had assumed this would be true because lead is softer and would have less drag on the barell than copper jackets. Accordingly, the expanding gases would push less hard with lead, and less recoil would be felt. Does that make ANY sense??? Accuracy - We were shooting a tactical scenario. My scores went up when I started using some lead bullets. And I scored significantly better than he did for teh one round where he was using jacketed, and I was using lead. Too "seat of the pants" to draw any conclusions but it did get me thinking. |
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Posted: 8/21/2001 9:07:38 AM EDT
[#9]
grandman:
I think the recoil was less with lead bullets because they were loaded to lower velocities and/or the bullet weight was lower. The friction of the bullet against thebarrel would not be noticed. Also, you may have shot better with cast bullets because the load may have had less recoil for above reasons. Few years ago when I had the "accuracy" bug I loaded almost hundred different loads for my 9mm, 38 Special, 357 Mag, 44 Mag, and 45 ACP looking for the most accurate load for each caliber. In general, I found that low velocity calibers (38 Special and 45ACP) shot best with lead/cast bullets at moderate velocities while high velocity calibers (9mm, 357 and 44 Mag) shot best with jacketed bullets at higher than normal velocities. Again, this is in general and is not applicable in every case. |
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Posted: 8/21/2001 9:54:52 AM EDT
[#10]
Yobo and Kbaker covered most of the points that I have, but I’d like to bring up another couple items:
There is a lot more variation in the quality of commercially available cast bullets than in jacketed. I’ve seen some real trash and some gems being sold. Cast causes a lot less wear on barrels than jacketed. Even at the same velocity. |
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Posted: 8/21/2001 11:35:11 AM EDT
[#11]
Maddock:
I agree with you on both points. There are a lot of shitty reloads being sold... both lead/cast and jacketed. Most of these reloads were loaded using cheapest components with no consideration other than to cycle the action on pistol calibers and hit the paper (sometimes). I've seen a lot of "home-made" reloads being sold that I would not put in my guns. Actually I NEVER shoot anybody elses reload. I also agree that lead/cast bullets case a lot less wear on the barrel. I had a Colt 1911 which has been shot over 65,000 rounds in past 15 years and while the slide and frame has gotten very loose the barrel still looks good. The accuracy is not there anymore but thats due to the slide/frame fit and the worn barrel bushing. I think about 95% of ammo shot in that pistol was my reload consisting of cast bullet. |
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