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Posted: 3/30/2001 1:50:55 PM EDT
I'm talking about HK91.com, but let's please not take the discussion over there, because I think my days of posting on that board are about over.

I want to present this as a "what if?" question regarding any discussion board, even this board, to get your feelings on the matter.

A little history lesson:  HK91.com was formerly a well known hotbed of flaming and bashing directed towards and from, one individual: an infamous gun-"maker".  Prior to the last couple of weeks, there was no moderation of ANY kind.  Emergency mods were brought in from another board, IPs were publicly displayed, some folks were banned, and some folks left.  Now I think this was a good idea (except for the public IPs) and there has been remarkable improvement.

I thought the matter was resolved, however, a couple days ago, the owners of the board obtained legal assistance (from members of the board who happen to be attorneys) and there were new guidelines set, and offers for any members to bring suit against the board and board owners.  From my understanding, anyone who attacks the said "gunmaker" or vise-versa will be warned, and then banned, at that point they can bring suit against the board, if they desire.  Now there is more talk by other members about libel and slander charges.

I don't know about you all, but I get antsy when lawyers come in and screw around with things (maybe that's why I dropped out of law school![;)]).  I don't 'hate' lawyers, hell, my sister is an attorney.  But I think there are some places they don't belong, including a discussion board, absent any actual threats of bodily harm.

Now I know it is a private board, and the owners are just protecting their own asses, but it still leaves a VERY bad impression in my mind.  I think it is a very poor solution to the problem that was already fixing itself.  I also think a bunch of members like myself will leave this new "sanitary" board, because we feel like we are now under the microscope of a team of lawyers.

I know this would never happen here.  The mods are very good at locking inappropriate threads and booting trolls, and the owners of this board would not result to these actions.

But what I just want to know what everyone thinks about this issue.

Again, please don't take this discussion to that board, I'm just feeling your pulse on the topic.
Link Posted: 3/30/2001 1:57:26 PM EDT
There are only so many ways to spell chickenfeces...
Link Posted: 3/30/2001 2:33:33 PM EDT
How old is your sister?
Link Posted: 3/30/2001 3:05:53 PM EDT


Utter Bunkum.

Why on earth are they bringing lawyers and lawsuits into a flamewar over disgruntled customers and and an unbusinesslike businessman?

Libel charges can and should be handled away from the board, serious deaththreats are a matter for the Po-lice, but why make the board a hotbed of scrutiny by lawyerish types? People can disagree, civilly or not, but the solution is not "You called "That quasi-gun MFG" a poophead twice, you're banned." And the correct answer from the members is hardly "Be in court on Wednesday".

Ditto your sentiments, HKocher... I'm uncomfortable just looking at that board, haven't posted a thing since, and I don't think I will.

Oh, well, there's always HKPro.com
Link Posted: 3/30/2001 3:11:46 PM EDT
Hkocher, the story is, what of it I can tell you anyhow. Todd, again threatened to sue the administration of the board. They brought in lawyers to show him they were tired of his bs threats and were prepared to accomodate him. However, I still gave MY notice the other day. In this "new" environment Todd will be able to pretend he is a respected businessman and we won't be able to effectively call him on his crap. The most "telling" former posts will be deleted and the sheep will walk right in and send Todd a check. I decided I could not participate in that senario. So I just checked out quietly. I have no ill feelings towards Jen and the board, I just think they are making a mistake. This is not exactly the environment I want to post in and the problem could have just as easily been solved by booting Todd like everyone else has. I think that Todd is going to destroy that board by association and it is a shame. It was a cool forum with cool people.
Link Posted: 3/30/2001 3:14:01 PM EDT
I think they've lost it, you start bringing in lawyers and it starts to stink if you ask me.  Was hk91.com ever libeled or actively engage in libel against someone?  Not that I know of, if someone libels a certain mfg. then it should be left between that someone and the mfg.  I think I shall stay away from there.
Link Posted: 3/30/2001 3:29:42 PM EDT
SteyrAUG, thanks for supplying some of the missing links in the story.

I always suspected this was either and re-emptive strike or a retaliatory action against Todd.  Figures that little 'man' would threaten lawsuits.  I also don't hold anything against the admin or mods of the board, I just think I will choose to not post there, as will many others I imagine, because of the new atmosphere.

I've always thought HKPro was a better board for info and for HK 'purists' like myself.  However HK91.com definitely had it's place, with a clone board and room to discuss non-HK topics (any thread that doesn't have HK in the title gets zapped at HKPro).  Oh well, I'll miss it.  It is a shame that someday Todd's misdeeds will be forgotten and erased, and future buyers will suck up to him, like some of the idiots posters HK91.com do now.  
Link Posted: 3/30/2001 3:30:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbrog|io:
How old is your sister?
View Quote

28, but I already told you, she's a lawyer, I didn't figure that you'd swing that way...
Link Posted: 3/30/2001 3:35:51 PM EDT
I did my part for as long as I could. It is too bad Todd free HKPro does not have a general section, those guys are cool. But I guess I'm home now. Feel free to email me and I'll bring you up to speed on some other stuff I don't want to post in the open. Some things I have agreed with certain members(not Todd) to not disclose but there is alot I can tell you that you don't know. Some stuff I cannot tell you because I did give my word.
Link Posted: 3/30/2001 3:52:15 PM EDT

You've got mail...
Link Posted: 3/30/2001 4:36:09 PM EDT
Don't really know what the controversy was on HK91.com, since I never frequented that board, but find it hard to believe that people were worried about libel/slander suits. If a statement, no matter how vile, profane or scurillous it is, is expressed as an opinion and not a fact, then it is neither libel nor slander (hard to say whether a truly defamatory statement would be libel or slander on the net, since it has the characteristics of both, but that's a mere technical detail). I think any rational judge would take what is said on a bulletin board as an expression of opinion. Even if stated as a fact, truth is an absolute defense. So what's the problem? Is it just another case of "lawyer paranoia"?
Link Posted: 3/30/2001 6:45:36 PM EDT
Well the administrators of HK91.com have just made a very bad and not very brave decision, which will cause some people a lot of trouble. As I understand it they no longer want anything negative posted about Special Weapons or Todd. So what happens when someone new asks about if he should purchase one of Todd’s junk piles, will he only read the good stuff because the other people are prohibited from speaking. Now I don’t know what anyone else would do, I know if I later found out that everyone on the board including the administrators, knew about the garbage that Todd  is selling and were prohibited from telling me the truth by the administrators, I would be really ticked off. And I would be looking for some revenge. I would contact the administrators and let them know how I felt about the way I was treated and they were responsible for my purchase of this POS. Now I am not a lawyer but what they did in my opinion is fraud by suppressing the truth and helping Todd sell his garbage. Now I may not have the chance of a snowman in hell but I would try to get some payback and take HK91.com and Special Weapons to court and charge that they conspired to defraud me. Now I may lose but that will still cause HK91.com problems. And of course I can always post on all the other gun boards that  HK91.com is someplace you do not want to check out.

What the administrators of HK91.com should do is don’t let anyone post anything pro or con about Special Weapons, or best yet ban Todd and tell him to stuff one of his POS rifles up his ***

By the way I have never dealt with Special Weapons and thanks to this board I never will. If these boards start to buckle under to manufacturers or dealers then they will be doing a great disservice to the people who use these boards to find out who they should and should not do business with.

So for all you people who accuse this board of censorship, I suggest you go on over to HK91.com to see real censorship in practice. At least the only things that are frowned upon on this board are undue profanity, and nasty personal attacks. So lets all be thankful for what we have and just avoid HK91.com if their actions and attitude really tick you off.  Just try to enjoy life while it lasts.
Link Posted: 3/30/2001 7:27:49 PM EDT
Sniper, and others, you should email your thoughts to [email protected]. This is Jen and she is the administrator. I think your well thought out evaluation of this situation might be beneficial for her to hear. And please, no one flame this girl. She really doesn't deserve it, she has enough troubles dealing with Todd. I just don't think she has thought this out very well.
Link Posted: 3/31/2001 2:00:30 PM EDT
Done, SteyAUG. Hope she rethinks this. Hate censorship. Let the free market of ideas and opinions reign. If someone's feelings get hurt, tough shit.
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