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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/22/2002 3:02:30 AM EST
[url]http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/072002/new_20020720060.shtml[/url] Law officers respect assault rifle's power AR-15: Serious threat in wrong hands By Stephen Gurr sgurr@onlineathens.com Lt. David Kilpatrick of the Oconee County Sheriff's Office holds a .223-caliber AR-15 rifle seized last week in a drug raid in the county. The assault rifle, modeled on the military M-16, turns up more and more frequently as Northeast Georgia officers do battle with criminals. The magazine for an AR-15 holds 30 rounds of ammunition and the guns can fire them as fast as the trigger is pulled. Jeff Blake/Staff It's sleek, black and looks like something out of an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie. It can fire off 30 rounds in about four seconds, spraying bullets that have the capability to burrow through bulletproof vests. It's the Colt AR-15 assault rifle, and it keeps turning up in the hands of accused criminals. Law enforcement officials are divided on the AR-15, which has turned up in major area crime scenes three times in the past three years -- most recently two weeks ago in an Oconee County drug bust. While protective of the Second Amendment and generally opposed to gun control, cops see how troublesome it is looking down the wrong end of an assault rifle barrel. Madison County Sheriff Clayton Lowe knows firsthand the capability of the AR-15, the civilian version of the M-16 in use by the U.S. military since the Vietnam War. His deputies were on the hunt for a Hart County jail escapee in October 2000 when the suspect unloaded a 40-round clip in their direction. No one was hit, but they had second thoughts about trudging into the woods at night in search of a heavily armed escapee. Kenneth Marty Glenn, 34, eventually surrendered and was convicted of aggravated assault on a police officer and sentenced to nine years in prison. Before running from lawmen, Glenn had dropped by his house to pick up his AR-15 and 250 rounds of ammunition. ''Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way in favor of gun control,'' said Lowe, who enjoys hunting. ''I believe if you give gun control people an inch they'll take you a mile. But it's no fun being outgunned by a bad guy, which is what happened in that situation.'' ''Gun control people,'' as Lowe calls them, had something to say about the AR-15 and its exotic counterparts. In 1994, President Clinton signed into law the assault weapon ban that restricted such things as magazine capacity, muzzle flash suppressors (for nighttime firefights) and collapsible stocks that make the guns concealable. But those rules only applied to guns manufactured after the bill was enacted.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 3:04:05 AM EST
With enough money, anyone can get their hands on a ''pre-ban'' assault rifle with all the old bells and whistles. Take the 1970s-era AR-15 seized by Oconee County investigators at the rural home of Tony Fortmann. Amid 500 marijuana plants, scores of stolen prescription pills and mushrooms, authorities found the gun and its 30-round magazine, along with a long-range rifle, they said. Oconee County Sheriff's Lt. David Kilpatrick, who is a licensed firearms dealer, downplays the significance of finding an AR-15 at the scene, which was ringed with surveillance cameras and a secured fence. ''Quite honestly, someone with a .22-caliber semiautomatic rifle can be precisely as dangerous,'' Kilpatrick said. But Kilpatrick allows this: the .223-caliber round fired by the AR-15 is ''devastating,'' with a tumbling action that inflicts major damage to a target. As for whether a bulletproof vest could stop a bullet fired from the AR-15, ''I wouldn't want to test it,'' Kilpatrick said. ''Because of (the .223's) piercing ability, I'd rather face a slug fired out of a shotgun at the same distance.'' Jackson County Sheriff Stan Evans said last year that a pursuit involving a gang of heavily armed bank robbers was ''almost a nightmare come true.'' Two of the three suspects who robbed the Jefferson Community Bank and Trust were armed with AR-15s that had been illegally modified for fully automatic fire. That meant instead of firing shots as fast as they could pull the trigger, they could unload an entire 40-round clip in a two-second burst. ''It could have ended up a massacre with what we were up against,'' Evans said of the November incident, which ended in a peaceful capture. ''We were certainly outgunned.'' Fewer law enforcement agencies are finding themselves outgunned these days, however. Oconee County officers have their own semiautomatic rifles in the trunks of their patrol units, and Lowe said he's beefed up his department's firepower since the run-in with Glenn. But for some, it doesn't matter if crooks and cops are on an even playing field. ''We would like all future production of assault weapons outlawed,'' said Marty Langley, a policy analyst with the pro-gun control Violence Policy Center in Washington, D.C. Langley said gun manufacturers ''have obeyed the letter of the (1994) law, but not the spirit.'' As an example, he cites Colt, which began production of the AR-15 Sporter to make up for its losses in the assault weapons ban. ''They just made some minor adjustments'' to the old AR-15 design, Langley said. In Oconee County, it wasn't illegal for 25-year-old Ben James Garland to own the AR-15 on its own. But it became a felony when combined with the illegal drug activity alleged at the home, Kilpatrick said. Likewise, Marty Glenn legally obtained the assault rifle he fired at Madison County sheriff's deputies. Lowe doesn't think gun ownership rights should change, despite the risks officers face in running up against such firepower. ''Unless they're a convicted felon, I'm all for it,'' he said. Published in the Athens Banner-Herald on Saturday, July 20, 2002.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 3:31:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2002 3:32:03 AM EST by DPeacher]
Like it has been said before, get at least 1 with all of the necessary accessories while you can, and train train train. Eat spam and raman noodles if the money is really tight. With the beltway bandits discussing revisions to the Posse Comitatus Act [url]http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=us&cat=terrorism[/url], TIPS, and all of the other Orwellian ideas, NOW is the time to get what you need. Harden your body, mind, and Soul. The storm clouds are approaching.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 3:48:37 AM EST
This must be a comedy piece by the author, as it is not factual, logical, or informative. A "tumbling action?" HAHAHAHAHA Three WHOLE times in three years? I bet they found male perps wearing womens underwear MORE than three times in a SINGLE year. Unload a 40 rounder in two seconds?? That's a 1,200 RPM cyclic rate. I don't think an M-16 can run like that, can it??? The perps broke the law by possessing the guns, they broke the law in modifying the guns. And the OBVIOUS cure for all that is (drum roll please) to make more laws?????
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 4:01:29 AM EST
My personal favorite [b]collapsible stocks that make the guns concealable[/b]
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 4:10:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By garandman: This must be a comedy piece by the author, as it is not factual, logical, or informative. A "tumbling action?" HAHAHAHAHA
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I believe they are talking about the fragmentation when the .223 round hits something...........
Three WHOLE times in three years? I bet they found male perps wearing womens underwear MORE than three times in a SINGLE year.
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Yeah, they said at MAJOR CRIME SCENES, that generally means people being dead. I doubt they have that amny "major crimes scenes". Most crime scenes are the local "stop and rob, when someone doesn't pay for gas.........
Unload a 40 rounder in two seconds?? That's a 1,200 RPM cyclic rate. I don't think an M-16 can run like that, can it???
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No an M-16 is appx 650-850. Maybe he was distracted by all the shooting and didn't start his stopwatch quick enough, and got the times wrong.
The perps broke the law by possessing the guns, they broke the law in modifying the guns. And the OBVIOUS cure for all that is (drum roll please) to make more laws?????
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Hold up, whoa, where did it say they were (other than the bank robbery) illegally possesed, modified, or obtained? Part of the article is about the perspective of LEO's that have actually had to be concerned with taking the rounds from those rifles. It would appear by the way the article was written the author wanted to prove that guns were bad and went to cops to back up his theory instead he gets: [red]''Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way in favor of gun control,'' said Lowe, who enjoys hunting. ''I believe if you give gun control people an inch they'll take you a mile. But it's no fun being outgunned by a bad guy, which is what happened in that situation.'' Lowe doesn't think gun ownership rights should change, despite the risks officers face in running up against such firepower. ''Unless they're a convicted felon, I'm all for it,'' he said. ''Quite honestly, someone with a .22-caliber semiautomatic rifle can be precisely as dangerous,'' Kilpatrick said[/red] So the cops say no gun control, and basically an AW is nothing special. I think the LEO' hardly proved the authors point. On the other hand: [blue]But for some, it doesn't matter if crooks and cops are on an even playing field. ''We would like all future production of assault weapons outlawed,'' said Marty Langley, a policy analyst with the pro-gun control Violence Policy Center in Washington, D.C.[/blue] I think that speaks for itself. Before you get all witty with the quotes from a Sheriff and a Sheriff's Lt. maybe you should consider what they had to say. Then again I'm thinking that you are so quick to ridicule cops you didn't care what they were saying.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 4:16:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By JIMBEAM: My personal favorite [b]collapsible stocks that make the guns concealable[/b]
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Beat me to it. Laughable, at best. I also like the flash suppressor "for nighttime firefights" comment. Makes it sound as if the suppressor is deadlier than the weapon! At least the cop stood up for us. No surprise, though, that the idiot from VPC let the verbal diarreha run again...
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 4:18:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By garandman: Unload a 40 rounder in two seconds?? That's a 1,200 RPM cyclic rate. I don't think an M-16 can run like that, can it???
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Heck, I'm just surprised that they got some POS USA mag (nobody makes any [b]good[/b] 40 round [b]clips[/b], right?) to go through 40 rounds without a FTF. My favorite:
The magazine for an AR-15 holds 30 rounds of ammunition and the guns can fire them as fast as the trigger is pulled
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This definitely emphasizes the need for delayed-action triggers. Maybe a 5 second waiting period on each shot? Sure ought to help people stop flinching. [;)]
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 4:19:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2002 4:23:56 AM EST by garandman]
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Then again I'm thinking that you are so quick to ridicule cops you didn't care what they were saying.
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No, you are NOT thinking. Or even reading. NOWHERE did I say ANYTHING about cops. My comments are directed at these journalists who know nothing about anything, but write about everything like they are experts on everything. [rolleyes] I HOPE you aren't a cop OlyM4gery. Yer WAY too thin skinned. I'm actually PRO law enforcment. NOT every thread on AR15.com is a cop bashing thread. Perhaps you need to walk away from the site for a while. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 4:26:04 AM EST
[red] Oconee County Sheriff's Lt. David Kilpatrick, who is a licensed firearms dealer, But Kilpatrick allows this:(edit) the .223-caliber round fired by the AR-15 is ''devastating,'' with a tumbling action that inflicts major damage to a target.[/red]
Originally posted by Garandman: This must be a comedy piece by the author, as it is not factual, logical, or informative. A "tumbling action?" HAHAHAHAHA Three WHOLE times in three years? I bet they found male perps wearing womens underwear MORE than three times in a SINGLE year.
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Who said "tumbling action" and who cracked wise?? If you got shot at by a person with an AR-15 I'm thinking that 1 experience would be more than enough. Plus you minimized the risk they faced, and apparently have some type of criminal underwear habits obsession.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 4:28:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2002 4:28:53 AM EST by Cincinnatus]
[size=4][b]"...bullets that have the capability to burrow through bulletproof vests."[/b] [/size=4]
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 4:33:07 AM EST
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Plus you minimized the risk they faced, and apparently have some type of criminal underwear habits obsession.
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And you could find a cop bashing thread in every thread posted in this forum. Lighten up dude. And see your dept. shrink. You got issues.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 5:12:24 AM EST
Frankly, I would like to see all future production of bull shit by the VPC outlawed. Their rancid, odious, steaming piles of untruth and haranging against the Constitution are not good for the health of the citizenry of this country.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 5:15:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By marvl: Frankly, I would like to see all future production of bull shit by the VPC outlawed. Their rancid, odious, steaming piles of untruth and haranging against the Constitution are not good for the health of the citizenry of this country.
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The stench wouldn't be NEARLY as bad if pseudo-experts masquerading as journalists wouldn't freely fan the crap piles VPC spews.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 5:23:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By marvl: Frankly, I would like to see all future production of bull shit by the VPC outlawed. Their rancid, odious, steaming piles of untruth and haranging against the Constitution are not good for the health of the citizenry of this country.
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Well said! I agree...do it for the children.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 5:30:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2002 5:37:24 AM EST by platform389]
[img]http://www.onlineathens.com/images/072002/rifle.jpg[/img] OK, experts, here is the pic from the article . Time for you to determine the maker of this "evil" weapon. What Say You? [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/sardonic.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 5:47:07 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 6:20:28 AM EST
Yeah they kinda said that it was a colt in the opening paragraph the artcle, but nice try, platform, [smoke]
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 6:37:18 AM EST
I like the quote about how he would rather take a shotgun slug then a .223! Ummmm, physics say otherwise. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 6:44:17 AM EST
Quoted from article: [b]''Quite honestly, someone with a .22-caliber semiautomatic rifle can be precisely as dangerous,'' Kilpatrick said. But Kilpatrick allows this: the .223-caliber round fired by the AR-15 is ''devastating,'' with a tumbling action that inflicts major damage to a target. As for whether a bulletproof vest could stop a bullet fired from the AR-15, ''I wouldn't want to test it,'' Kilpatrick said. ''Because of (the .223's) piercing ability, I'd rather face a slug fired out of a shotgun at the same distance.''[/b] Ok guys, which is it? Does the bullet tumble and inflict major damage to the target? Or does it remain stable and pierce a bulletproof(resistant) vest? I can't belive these two statements were right next to each other in the text. And people should take the article's title seriously [b]Law officers respect assault rifle's power AR-15: Serious threat in wrong hands[/b] the "wrong hands" are criminals, not the citizenry.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 6:44:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By Andromax: Yeah they kinda said that it was a colt in the opening paragraph the artcle, but nice try, platform, [smoke]
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Specifically it's a Colt AR-15 Sporter Carbine from the mid 80's or 70's. A1 rear sight and pistol grip, full bidrcage suppressor, original 16" 1:12 twist barrel with "narrow" handguards, lack of forward assist. The thing that really ID's it as a Colt is the lack of a raised fence around the mag release and the lack of buffer tube reinforcing at the rear of the lower reciever that would hide the take down detent spring tunnel in military lower. Also note the missing spring tunnel from the area behind the front take down--more than likely there's a two piece screw holding the upper and lower together. Tthe darker gloss color of the buttstock is indicative of the original Colt collapsible stock which was plastic coated aluminum and not the 'fiberite' found in most current collapsible stocks. LT. Kilpatrick is one big fella. That rifle looks like a kids toy in his hands.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 7:19:14 AM EST
So, was it a 30 round mag or a 40 round clip? [b]"deputies were on the hunt for a Hart County jail escapee in October 2000 when the suspect unloaded a 40-round clip in their direction. No one was hit...[/b] Not that I'd want to see any of the LEOs get hit, but if the perp unloaded a [b]"40 round clip"[/b] without hitting anyone, he needs to find a new criminal occupation that doesn't require the use of firearms. Maybe a peeping tom or male prostitute. [sex]
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 9:22:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By MurderSHO45: I like the quote about how he would rather take a shotgun slug then a .223! Ummmm, physics say otherwise. [rolleyes]
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Ummmm, soft, concealable vest have NEVER failed at their rated level. 2nd Chance, I believe, does have a "save" vs. as 12 ga slug. Safariland was sued, by a deputies widow, he was hit dead on the chest with a .45-70 slug appx 75 yard range. The soft vest stopped the bullet, but the hit caused so much bruising, w/o penetration, the deputy died. Vests work by dissipating energy. The problem is that some smaller profile rounds can actually get in between the "weave" of the vest and penetrate. The Russians supposedely developed a 5.45 mm handgun round to penetrate a vest, dur to it's point construction, and tiny frontal area. I think big, slow, powerful rounds are more easily stopped by a vest. Because the vest has time to flex and dissipate, and the weave stays intact. Fast, small rounds are more likely to penetrate. As far as "tumbling" .223 rounds. The rounds hit and may need up to 9" before they tumble. So I guess theoretically a round could penetrate the front panel of a vest start tumbling and then be stopped or deflected back into the person when it hits the back panel of the vest.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 9:26:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2002 9:27:40 AM EST by garandman]
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: As far as "tumbling" .223 rounds. The rounds hit and may need up to 9" before they tumble. So I guess theoretically a round could penetrate the front panel of a vest start tumbling and then be stopped or deflected back into the person when it hits the back panel of the vest.
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FWIW - Rounds "tumble" in the air during their trajectory / flight path. They DO NOT "tumble" inside the person / gelatin they impact. That's called fragmentation.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 9:35:13 AM EST
Even if you take all the guns away from civilians. Criminals are still going to have them. Guns and drugs are never going to go away. All we can do is arm ourselves. The police dept. I am in uses H&K 36ks for their assault rifle. FMJ and TAP ammo
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 9:49:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: [red] Oconee County Sheriff's Lt. David Kilpatrick, who is a licensed firearms dealer, But Kilpatrick allows this:(edit) the .223-caliber round fired by the AR-15 is ''devastating,'' with a tumbling action that inflicts major damage to a target.[/red]
Originally posted by Garandman: This must be a comedy piece by the author, as it is not factual, logical, or informative. A "tumbling action?" HAHAHAHAHA Three WHOLE times in three years? I bet they found male perps wearing womens underwear MORE than three times in a SINGLE year.
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Who said "tumbling action" and who cracked wise?? If you got shot at by a person with an AR-15 I'm thinking that 1 experience would be more than enough. Plus you minimized the risk they faced, and apparently have some type of criminal underwear habits obsession.
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OLY, Trying to stay clear of being "in your face," I still have to question your ability to interpret grammatics. Garandman clearly was chastising the author's quote, not the cop's quote. "...the .223-caliber round fired by the AR-15 is ''devastating,'' with a tumbling action that inflicts major damage to a target." The cop's quote was the word "devastating," not the rest of the sentence about the tumbling action. The rest was simply the author's claim. Adding a quote from a third party which appears to back up a particular claim or position is a journalistic trick many authors use. You, and many others, fall for it. The funny part about all this is many times the third party quote had nothing to do with the author's claim. This is where people get all upset over being misquoted or having things get taken out of context.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 9:54:27 AM EST
Originally Posted By garandman:
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: As far as "tumbling" .223 rounds. The rounds hit and may need up to 9" before they tumble. So I guess theoretically a round could penetrate the front panel of a vest start tumbling and then be stopped or deflected back into the person when it hits the back panel of the vest.
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FWIW - Rounds "tumble" in the air during their trajectory / flight path. They DO NOT "tumble" inside the person / gelatin they impact. That's called fragmentation.
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true.. (with some exception) the .223 or 5.56 round is know to seperate and fragment at the cannalure of the bullet causing a large cavity with multiple wound channels. larger rounds such as the 7.62 are less likely to fragment and because of sudden change in velocity upon hitting soft tissue, they have been known to "tumble" meaning flipping end over end. so you are both correct (insofar as .223) and incorrect (when you say that bullets do not "tumble" in tissue...
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 9:57:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin: The cop's quote was the word "devastating," not the rest of the sentence about the tumbling action. The rest was simply the author's claim. [size=4]Adding a quote from a third party which appears to back up a particular claim or position is a journalistic trick many authors use. You, and many others, fall for it.[/size=4] .
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BINGO. Read it. Learn it. Know it. The journalist (and I use that word loosely) plagiarized a SINGLE word quote from the cop, and inserted it into his OWN biased thoughts to have a dramatic sentence. To create a sensational sounding tidbit.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 10:07:58 AM EST
colinjay - Of course we are into semantics now, but according to classical ballistics terminology, "tumbling" ONLY occurs when a bullet is supposed to be rotating on its axis. That ONLY occurs during trajectory. When a bullet hits its target, it is NOT supposed to rotate any more. Its supposed to either fragment (in soft tissue) or ricochet off bone, hard tissue. You'll have to forgive me if I use classical ballistics terminology when talking about bullets. Which was my original point. The author uses the term "tumbling action" incorrectly. Bullets "tumble" in the air. They fragment or ricochet upon hitting a target. Typical "journalist" trying to use terms that he doesn't understand.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 11:04:19 AM EST
I hate reporters.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 1:00:05 PM EST
Er - 'No one was hit' Doesn't count.
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