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Posted: 1/6/2012 2:27:09 PM EST
I graduated from college a little over four years ago. I got shitty undergraduate grades, a low B. I scored a 1300 on my SAT with no prep so I assume that I can do okay on standardized tests. Could a good LSAT score and a shitty undergraduate GPA get you into an okay law school?
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 2:27:36 PM EST
Yes.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 2:30:37 PM EST
From what I have been told, if you rip a very very high score on the LSAT and have a 3.0GPA or higher, you can get into a good school. Granted, you won't get into a Ivy league without a perfect score or a very high GPA, you can stil do well.

Be warned-do your research into being a lawyer before spending the money. Currently, the market is flooded and the only people who seem to get decent jobs graduate from top schools at the top half of their class or know someone.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 2:32:16 PM EST
Depends on what you consider good. But why would you want to go to law school these days?
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 2:32:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By MetalChef:
From what I have been told, if you rip a very very high score on the LSAT and have a 3.0GPA or higher, you can get into a good school. Granted, you won't get into a Ivy league without a perfect score or a very high GPA, you can stil do well.

Be warned-do your research into being a lawyer before spending the money. Currently, the market is flooded and the only people who seem to get decent jobs graduate from top schools at the top half of their class or know someone.


Do not take this advice lightly. The economics really don't pan out for many people; and when they do, the lifestyle is pretty horrible as a trade off.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 2:33:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By gopeterson:
Depends on what you consider good. But why would you want to go to law school these days?
Couldn't we use another pro gun attorney?

Link Posted: 1/6/2012 2:41:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By Danj:

Originally Posted By gopeterson:
Depends on what you consider good. But why would you want to go to law school these days?
Couldn't we use another pro gun attorney?



I am certain we could use a platoon full of pro gun unemployed lawyers.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 2:41:33 PM EST
Yes. LSAT is what counts no matter what they say. I graduated with honors yet I don't test well and my score sucked. I didn't get in and didn't retake that damn test. Would rather go thru natural childbirth than see that test again. Left with the worst headache ever. Good luck!
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 2:42:12 PM EST
Why do you hate yourself?
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 2:53:35 PM EST
I graduated undergrad in '99 with a 3.5 GPA and with a 156 on the LSAT got into a decent Law School, nothing great mind you but a good state school. My wife had a 4.0 and also got a 156 on her LSAT and got into the same school. Letters of recomendation also count (or used to anyway) towards admitance as do "other factors". So if it is something you want to try I say go for it.

As for there being too many lawyers, in some ways I guess that is true but with a professional degree you can always go into business for yourself. That's what my wife has done and it is working out great for her. As for me, I realized that being a lawyer was somehting I just didn't want to do and dropped out after the first year.

Oh and even if I am new I know the rules, but still no pics of the wife you pervs.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 2:54:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/6/2012 2:55:20 PM EST by Danj]

Originally Posted By Cruffler1701:
Letters of recomendation also count

From professors? If so that shit ain't happening.

Originally Posted By wtturn:
Why do you hate yourself?
I already hate myself a lot. Is law really that bad?

What about divorce law, I like seeing other people miserable? Seems like a pretty stable industry.

Link Posted: 1/6/2012 2:59:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By Danj:

Originally Posted By Cruffler1701:
Letters of recomendation also count

From professors? If so that shit ain't happening.

Originally Posted By wtturn:
Why do you hate yourself?
I already hate myself a lot. Is law really that bad?

What about divorce law, I like seeing other people miserable? Seems like a pretty stable industry.



In seriousness, I cannot stress the importance of an internship or at least job shadowing enough. Do you really want to spend 3 years of your life and a small fortune on something you end up hating? It happens all the time. You need to at least get a taste of it.

It doesn't sound like you've given this enough thought. And ask a divorce attorney how stable their situation and how good they get paid.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 3:03:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/6/2012 3:04:18 PM EST by Cruffler1701]
Yeah the letters of recomendation would be from professors, sorry for not being clear on that.

From what I have heard my wife say, divorce law is stressful and your client is almsot never happy which can cause more problems. YMMV with that, but she does mostly estate planning and elder law. There are alot of areas of law to get into, you just have to follow your own interests and find an area close enough that can pay the bills.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 3:09:24 PM EST
DON'T DO IT.

If you "got shitty grades" in undergrad and only scored a 1300 on the SAT, you probably aren't going to rock the LSAT. A low GPA and mediocre LSAT aren't going to get you into a top tier law school. Even if you did get into one, you would then have to get into the top 20% of your class in the first semester. I can tell you from your post, YOU WON'T BE IN THE TOP 20% OF YOUR 1L CLASS IN A TOP TIER LAW SCHOOL.

Unless you want to be making $35K a year defending crack dealers or servicing dumb poor people, forget about it.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 3:22:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By eddiein1984:
DON'T DO IT.

If you "got shitty grades" in undergrad and only scored a 1300 on the SAT, you probably aren't going to rock the LSAT. A low GPA and mediocre LSAT aren't going to get you into a top tier law school. Even if you did get into one, you would then have to get into the top 20% of your class in the first semester. I can tell you from your post, YOU WON'T BE IN THE TOP 20% OF YOUR 1L CLASS IN A TOP TIER LAW SCHOOL.

Unless you want to be making $35K a year defending crack dealers or servicing dumb poor people, forget about it.


Whats the requirement to be in the top 20% of your first year?

Link Posted: 1/6/2012 3:26:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By Cruffler1701:
Yeah the letters of recomendation would be from professors, sorry for not being clear on that.

From what I have heard my wife say, divorce law is stressful and your client is almsot never happy which can cause more problems. YMMV with that, but she does mostly estate planning and elder law. There are alot of areas of law to get into, you just have to follow your own interests and find an area close enough that can pay the bills.


One thing I've found interesting is that the several instructors at my school who have Master's licenses (i.e., they can captain merchant ships) all have law degrees (JDs, each and every one). They do not practice law; when they are not teaching most of them are captaining ships. I would imagine they specialize in Admiralty Law or something like that. Given how much they get paid to work at sea, I can see how they were able to afford law school.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 3:27:09 PM EST
Be a paralegal first for 2-3 years. You'll get a taste of the practice of law without $120K in student loans. And if you become a lawyer, you will be a better lawyer for having been a paralegal.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 3:28:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/12/2012 3:57:14 PM EST by dodgecoltracer]
I'll let you know in a month or two when my applications come back

EDIT:

3.3gpa and 155 LSAT

So far I've gotten into all my safety schools, including: a full scholarship to Charlotte, a half scholarship to Widener, and general admission to Quinnipiac. Still waiting on Rutgers, Drexel, Fordham, and Hofstra.

I didn't get into Boston College but considering that the LSAC gave me a 5% chance of admission I wasn't surprised
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 3:29:44 PM EST
I've met a few people that were recent grads of law school ( within a year to two since they graduated) and they were serving food
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 3:32:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/6/2012 3:33:42 PM EST by Couch-Commando]
Be warned that the LSAT is a hard test. I am generally an ace at standardized tests and scored 50th percentile when I took the LSAT.

ETA: I come from a family full of lawyers with lots of connections. If this is not the case for you, you should probably rethink the whole law school thing at least until the economy recovers.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 3:36:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
Be a paralegal first for 2-3 years. You'll get a taste of the practice of law without $120K in student loans. And if you become a lawyer, you will be a better lawyer for having been a paralegal.


Thats pretty good advice actually. Like I said earlier, I dropped out after a year because I realized I just didn't enjoy law as much as I thought I would. I had a bunch of student loans to pay off from just that one year. That sucked too because I worked through undergrad to avoid any kind of student loans there. We are still paying off my wife's loans from law school, we call it our car payment since our vehicles are both paid off.

Those law school grads mentioned that are working in the food industry must not have passed the bar. Once thats out of the way, you can hang out your own shingle and expect to do well enough to survive.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 3:46:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/6/2012 6:05:36 PM EST by danpass]
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 3:48:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By Danj:
Could a good LSAT score and a shitty undergraduate GPA get you into an okay law school?


Yes. In my school I'm what is known as a splitter. My undergraduate GPA was below the 25 percentile but my LSAT was above the 75 percentile.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 4:03:03 PM EST
My daughter is in her first year of low school. She graduated with a 4.0 average and scored 164 on the LSAT. That is not good enough for Ivy League (Harvard,Yale), but she got into UVA Law.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 4:09:20 PM EST
those who are in/applied/want to apply please list your undergrad degree

(just curious)
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 4:10:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By Cruffler1701:
Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
Be a paralegal first for 2-3 years. You'll get a taste of the practice of law without $120K in student loans. And if you become a lawyer, you will be a better lawyer for having been a paralegal.


Thats pretty good advice actually. Like I said earlier, I dropped out after a year because I realized I just didn't enjoy law as much as I thought I would. I had a bunch of student loans to pay off from just that one year. That sucked too because I worked through undergrad to avoid any kind of student loans there. We are still paying off my wife's loans from law school, we call it our car payment since our vehicles are both paid off.

Those law school grads mentioned that are working in the food industry must not have passed the bar. Once thats out of the way, you can hang out your own shingle and expect to do well enough to survive.


many, many lawyers just want to be technicians and not be business owners. Being a business owner and lawyer has aged me more in the past 3 years than in the 37 before.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 4:11:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By danpass:
those who are in/applied/want to apply please list your undergrad degree

(just curious)


Business Administration
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 4:15:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/6/2012 4:22:10 PM EST by Cruffler1701]
My wife has a a political science degree (and her JD of course) and has been a practicing attorney for a decade.

I have undergrad degrees in International Relations and Political Science and dropped after the first year. Funny thing is when I dropped out I was ahead of my wife in our respective classes standings.

EDIT: Spartacus I can see your point, it does take a certain perosnality to be able to handle being both owner and lawyer at the same time. The fact remains that for someone willing to do it, it can be very profitable.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 4:25:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/6/2012 4:33:21 PM EST by Giltweasel]
I think there is still a state or two where if you apprentice yourself to a lawyer for 2 or 3 years, you can then take the bar exam, bypassing law school.

I always thought that was a neat system. Not that it would make you a good lawyer, but it's an option in some places.

ETA: I think it was Connecticut that did this the first time I read about it. Going by wikipedia, it's California, Vermont, Virginia, and Washington that allow it.

In addition, the reciprocity rules for some states, when I last checked, only required you to have been a practicing attorney in another state to apply for the bar there. It would be an interesting individual who could be admitted to the bar in multiple states without having attended a single day of law school.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 4:35:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By RDP:
Yes.


Link Posted: 1/6/2012 4:52:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
Originally Posted By danpass:
those who are in/applied/want to apply please list your undergrad degree

(just curious)


Business Administration


Information technology/Business

I can not recommend attending law school unless you are going to go to Harvard, Yale, etc...

Too many fish in too small a pond.

I'm looking for a way to get out, even though I make decent money.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 5:25:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/6/2012 5:28:37 PM EST by LuckyDucky]
Originally Posted By danpass:
those who are in/applied/want to apply please list your undergrad degree

(just curious)


BS double major in mathematics and psychology

MS in mathematics

I don't believe you can work wherever you want if you aren't top tier top 20% but I do believe you can find jobs local to the school. At least I hope so...


Link Posted: 1/6/2012 5:33:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By Cruffler1701:
Originally Posted By eddiein1984:
DON'T DO IT.

If you "got shitty grades" in undergrad and only scored a 1300 on the SAT, you probably aren't going to rock the LSAT. A low GPA and mediocre LSAT aren't going to get you into a top tier law school. Even if you did get into one, you would then have to get into the top 20% of your class in the first semester. I can tell you from your post, YOU WON'T BE IN THE TOP 20% OF YOUR 1L CLASS IN A TOP TIER LAW SCHOOL.

Unless you want to be making $35K a year defending crack dealers or servicing dumb poor people, forget about it.


Whats the requirement to be in the top 20% of your first year?



Better grades than the other 80%?

Seriously, nobody knows until you are there, which is why it is so risky.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 5:53:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By scubadown:
My daughter is in her first year of low school. She graduated with a 4.0 average and scored 164 on the LSAT. That is not good enough for Ivy League (Harvard,Yale), but she got into UVA Law.


Did she end up going there?

I graduated from UVA law 12 years ago. But I would not even think of going now.

When I graduated 100% of the class of 360 had jobs as at graduation. It's just not the same now.

Link Posted: 1/7/2012 10:28:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By gopeterson:
Originally Posted By scubadown:
My daughter is in her first year of low school. She graduated with a 4.0 average and scored 164 on the LSAT. That is not good enough for Ivy League (Harvard,Yale), but she got into UVA Law.


Did she end up going there?

I graduated from UVA law 12 years ago. But I would not even think of going now.

When I graduated 100% of the class of 360 had jobs as at graduation. It's just not the same now.



Yes she is there now and I think her prospects for a job after graduation are very good.
Link Posted: 1/7/2012 11:05:26 AM EST
DON'T DO IT!!!! SAVE YOURSELF!!!! IT'S NOT TOO LATE TO BECOME A GAY PROSTITUTE INSTEAD!!!!!!
Link Posted: 1/7/2012 11:06:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2012 11:20:29 AM EST by RJGatling]
Oh, if you really MUST, here's a site to research your odds:

http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/

Taking the LSAT won't kill you, it's only a couple of hundred bucks anyway. Then use your score and GPA on both the above site and the LSAC's odds-calculator to see what schools you have a chance at.

If your GPA sucked, it's unlikely that you'll get into a top-14 program. You just might if you get a 170+ on the LSAT, but odds are still against you.

If you don't get into a T14, you'd damn well better get a scholarship, otherwise it really isn't worth it. Law school tuition at any high-rank school (and even most of the low ones, now) is going to be $35K/year and up. Add the fees, living expenses, and so on, and it's easy to see why people talk about $150K in law school debt.

BTW, 1300 (I presume on the 1600 point scale –– if on the 2400 point scale, you wouldn't be bragging) would put you around 90%ile. That would be roughly 164 on the LSAT. With a 3.0 (or by "low B", do you mean B-, 2.7-3.0 range?), you'd probably be looking at schools in T2 (rank 50-99 –– possibly with partial scholarship) or lower T1 (rank 25-49 –– no scholarship).
Link Posted: 1/7/2012 11:15:57 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/7/2012 11:24:42 AM EST
Originally Posted By MetalChef:
From what I have been told, if you rip a very very high score on the LSAT and have a 3.0GPA or higher, you can get into a good school. Granted, you won't get into a Ivy league without a perfect score or a very high GPA, you can stil do well.

Be warned-do your research into being a lawyer before spending the money. Currently, the market is flooded and the only people who seem to get decent jobs graduate from top schools at the top half of their class or know someone.


This is great advice. I was a 154 with decent undergrad GPA, graduated from a decent law school, murdered the bar exam (Barbri is worth every penny so long as you do your part) and landed a great gig . . . because I knew someone.

If you'll be using student loans to get through school, you may want to consider another career. If Daddy Warbucks is footing the bill, its probably worth it. This is especially true when you consider average starting salary when I graduated was around $40k. Not too bad, but by the time you factor in 60 hour work weeks, no benefits, and student loan payments, it becomes much less appealing. Compare that to the starting salary of the local Sheriff's office at the time (I seriously considered jumping ship) was $38K (+$5k after first year) with much more reasonable hours and great benefits.

Most folks assume lawyers are raking it in, when in reality, the legal profession is analagous to a ponzi scheme. You've got senior partners sitting at the top of the pyramid working the new guys (read 0 to 10 years of experence) like rented mules for $40k-$75k per year. The new guys are nothing but assholes and elbows because they believe that one day they'll be a senior partner too.

I was very fortunate to get in with a small, reputable firm in a niche practice area. I would caution you to be wary of the big firms and remember that quality of life is more important than a paycheck.

Good luck.
Link Posted: 1/7/2012 5:19:14 PM EST
Good advice in this thread. Better to heed it now then start thinking about it after your $35k in debt for your first year and hating it. And you certainly don't want to be the guy with $120k in debt and a $55k/yr document review job that is crushing your will to live; but you can't get off the treadmill because of the debt.
Link Posted: 1/7/2012 5:26:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:
Good advice in this thread. Better to heed it now then start thinking about it after your $35k in debt for your first year and hating it. And you certainly don't want to be the guy with $120k in debt and a $55k/yr document review job that is crushing your will to live; but you can't get off the treadmill because of the debt and the inability to declare bankruptcy.


However, you can sign up for an income-based repayment plan.

Your debt is $200k but you only make $35k per year? Your payment is $5250 for ten years then your debt is forgiven.

Link Posted: 1/7/2012 6:52:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By Danj:

Originally Posted By gopeterson:
Depends on what you consider good. But why would you want to go to law school these days?
Couldn't we use another pro gun attorney?



is that what you thought you'd hear? I think gopeterson was trying to save your future from ruin.
Link Posted: 1/7/2012 7:14:14 PM EST
I was on the law school track until the only law schools I was accepted to were decent state schools, but none of the private schools i applied for. (3.5 gpa, low 160's LSAT). It's only worth it these days if you have some serious connections for a job, or if you go to a top tier school.
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