[size=6][b][red]FIRES!!![/red][/b][/size=6] This is a simple concept. If your desire is to merely drive someone out of a structure, please use a CS cannister that does not have the word "pyro" in its name. If, on the other hand, you wish to burn them up for retribution, to destroy evidence, or whatever other reason, use pyro technic devices that will further divide you from society (at least the ones who give a damn). I am not anti-LEO, as anyone who knows me will attest. It is getting damned old having people burned up in fires that began immediately after flammables were introduced by LEO's, then the same B.S. story is told that they "committed suicide." You guys deal with the aftermath of suicide often, right? Let me ask a question--how many people commit suicide by setting their house on fire? How many use a firearm? The individuals said to be committing suicide by setting fire to their house almost always have a firearm in their hand at the time they alledgedly set their house on fire, right after pyro technics are introduced. Seem odd? It does to me. [pyro] Edited to add: The above rant is not to imply that the vast majority of LEO's would deliberately cause a fire or commit any criminal act. [:D]

Yeah, and if the creeps weren't guilty then the pyro device wouldn't be launched into their home. Cop Basher!!! [;)]

You are NOT going to like my response !!!! If I already had at least one Officer down and the perp was still firing from the structure I would introduce tear gas. If he still continued to fire from the structure [b]AND[/b] I knew there were NO OTHER INDIVIDUALS inside I would hit it with EVERYTHING at my disposal !!!! This IDIOT signed his own death warrant. I have willingly placed my own life at risk to save a hostage, but I WILL NOT RISK MY LIFE OR ANY FELLOW OFFICERS LIVES TO ARREST SOMEONE WHO HAS JUST KILLED A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER [b]AND[/b] WHO IS STILL CONTINUING TO ENGAGE THE OFFICERS WITH RIFLE FIRE. Rules of Engagement for almost every Law Enforcement Agency in the U.S. - When engaged with a suspect you are to respond with the next step on the ladder of force above what the suspect is using. When deadly force is used you WILL respond with deadly force. Gunrunner [b]1*[/b]

I was afraid my thread would be taken as bashing LEO's. It was not intended that way, hence the edit. You are wrong about your post, if you think I would not like it. I agree 100%. My thread really did not refer to the Beck case--I meant it as a general rant about the apparent "scorched earth" policy that [b]seems[/b] to be employed beginning at Waco. In the Beck case I found it disturbing to see the fire fighters spraying water on the neighbor's houses (after LEO's shot them up), but did nothing to save the Beck home and the evidence it contained, not to mention his life. I have watched your posts enough to know you are a [b]good[/b] LEO, so you know a perpetrator is to be apprehended and brought to trial, if at all possible. CS cannisters will accomplish this, as I understand it (I'm not an LEO), and the pyro technics I wouldn't think would need to be used. I may be way off base--perhaps there is only one type? I'm quite certain I've seen CS in a "bug bomb" type of cannister that just sprays the gas with no chance of fire. Anyway, I can see [carefully!] risking your life to SAVE a victim, but when under attack, save your own asses first--screw the perp. As always, THANKS for what you do! Mike

thebeekeeper1, sorry about "going off" but I'm getting more than a little annoyed at the Anti-Cop postings and maybe I'm getting a little "thin skined". I left Bowers' Board several years ago when posts start appearing about "Killing Cops", I DON'T want AR15.com to sink to that level.(and there HAVE been a few here) Yes there ARE canisters that REDUCE the chance of fire BUT, do NOT eliminate it. And on the subject of B.A.T.F. Officers, yes there ARE BAD Officers working for the ATF, BUT, I do know several Enforcement Branch Officers working out of the K.C.MO. Office that are Pro-Gun and will not defend many of B.A.T.F.'s actions INCLUDING Waco TX. Do not lump everyone together, ANY group has a cross section of the population, good , bad, etc., etc. Gunrunner

gunrunner i can understand your point of view. But, an LEO's duty is not judge and executioner. Sure this guy was a dumbass and a dirtbag. But the LEO's screwedup BIG time. The problem with leos is they think they are now urban commando's instead of law enforcement. LEO's have their hands tied with use of deadly force for a reason. They should be trained in proper use of force and tactics. these guys were not. jmho mike

I think I understand your frustration. After 8 hours of "cold shoulder" on the job you do not come here for an hour of R&R to listen to more crap about LEO's. Please keep in mind the bashers are only a half dozen or so out of 12,000. "Illegitimi non carborundum" comes to mind--don't let the bastards wear you down. You no doubt know 99.9% of the members here are among the [b]most[/b] law abiding of American citizens--and that is exactly why we get so upset over being demonized for our chosen hobbies. We know LEO's don't make the laws, but you guys, on occasion, are the tip of the spear used against us. It puts you in a tough position, especially when you are, by default, on both sides of the equation--freedom-loving gun owner [b]and[/b] LEO. Tough row to hoe. You, and the others who have chosen to identify themselves as LEO's, are valuable members here. You offer insight into the world of LE. I enjoy the perspectives given. Thanks for your daily efforts in the state I plan to retire in, and thanks for your contributions here.

Man, you said a mouthful there. Of course, those of us not involved in such things can never comprehend all the dynamics going on. Thanks for the glimpse.

beck was probobly overcome by toxic vapors or superheated gases before he knew he was in trouble. Had he come out it is almost certain he would have been shot based on the way this was handled.

gunrunner. I wonder how many people here know what 1* even means![;)] I have day one of a 2 day chemical agents instructors course out of the way. So I'll comment while it's fresh in my mind. CS/CN/OC chemical agents are a tool designed to do a job. They are not the be all end all. Some are very effective. Some are almost useless. How effective they are also depends on variables that the user has no control over either. Wind,humidity,rain, knowledge of gas grenades by the perp and how to defeat or lessen the effect of the gas. They all have what is called the "throw back" factor. Pyrotechnics don't have as much of a "throw back" factor for the simple fact they are burning and they are to hot to pick up although people have done this. They are burning for the simple fact the heat/flame is the method by which CS gas is delivered. OC can't be delivered this way because burning it renders it useless. Most likely there was a grenade or round available that might have done the job as well as the pyrotechnic grenade but in a situation where you are taking effective rifle fire from the perp you use what you know will work. I don't know about the LA County Sheriffs Dept. but my organization gives the offender 3 verbal warnings to comply or chemical agents and physical/lethal force will be used against them. If they choose to ignore those warnings then they have effectively taken the decision to use as much force as necessary out of our hands and placed it in their own. The fact that Beck was a former LEO would provide him with the knowledge of chemical agents, their delivery systems and the SOP's for non-compliant barricaded suspects. [blue]edited to say I'm not trying to defend the actions of the LEO's. I was just trying to shed some light on chemical agents/weapons and part of our protocol for deploying them. [/blue]

for all guys defending the LEO here remember this. They did not have the search warrant on site. Last i knew you were under no obligation to cooperate with a search until they produce a warrant. By the ATF's own admision the warrant was sealed at another location. I would have most likely refused them entry as well until the warrant was produced. Beck most likely was a dirtbag. But he was not killed for being a criminal he was killed for resisting an illeagal search. Yes he is to blame as well but LEO are the proffesionals and seemed to have skirted the law. mike

How bout wait till he leaves and search the house? Before you bring up it may be policy to execute the warrant while is there, I know the ATF has no requirement for the person to be home as there is at least one account of a collector coming home and finding his door off the hinges, his safes cut open, weapons tossed into a pile in the house (many rare pieces damaged as they were tossed, apparently across the room) and a note that simply said "nothing found-ATF" As bad as that was, they at least avoided confrontation.

oly, Are you really this big of an idiot or do you only play one on ar15.com? [:)] The atf agent was interviewed at the scene during the standoff. Therefore i assume the warrant was NEVER on scene. I don't think they made a special run to return the warrant to the office. If they did not present a warrant then as far as he knew there was not one. If a police officer came to your door tonight and wanted to search your house just because he felt like it would you let him? No it was not right to open fire. That was his mistake. But if the situation were on my privately owned property i would certanly have resisted until a warrant was delivered. They are the Police for gods sake. They are supposed to know the law. Try reading the constitution and then think about the warrant issue again. mike

Guys, especially LEO's, thanks for the info on the various devices used in barricade situations. I have increased my knowledge and that is always a good thing. I did not, however, intend this to be a continuation of the damned Beck pissing match. How about we all just agree everybody screwed up, has culpability, and two lives have been lost, one more "guilty" (probably) than the other, by far. Beck was not a 2nd Amendment martyr, the LEO was NOT a JBT. I now see the legitimacy of using devices which could easily start a fire when it will likely save innocent lives, even at the expense of the life of the perpetrator. I got what I wanted from this thread and am going to delete it later tonight if the Beck stuff continues, as I was not referring specifically to him. Sorry, but I am weary of the same crap being thrown at each other. Got to get back to work.

oly j/k kidding with the idiot crack you have made some very valid points. I still say if they had no warrant they had no right to approach his property. What is wrong with them following the law. YES HE F'ed up. Yes that's what made him dead. If they had waited 30 min until the warrant was on site this situation would be different in my opinion.

WELL SAID. Thanks for the voice of reason. Now butt out oly and I aren't done bitching yet. [:)] mike

Another favorite LEO attitude I see too much of, anyone who doesn't consent to a search without probable cause must have something to hide, they couldn't just value thier rights[rolleyes]. (note this was a question not about Beck, but about what you would do.)

I can't remember the name of the SWAT Officer who "coined" it for lack of a better word but it means 1[b]ass to risk[/b] (asterisk). My read on it is you as a member of a SWAT team,ER Team whatever have the right to risk your ass by your decisions or actions but not anyone elses. It has been awhile since I read the original article.

Thanks for clearing that up, your first post made it seem like you felt only folks who had something to hide would object to a warrantless search.

So what if they do have something to hide. I'd bet i could walk into any house in the country and find 10 things that could be construed to be illeagal for one purpose or another. I have nothing to hide either. They'd be more than welcome to search when they present the warrant. Until then they are abusing their authority and annoying the public. I ask you again what is wrong with them following the laws they are upholding? If i came to your door tonight and presented a badge would you let me search your house just because i wanted? Once again beck was an idiot. But i still feel the leo/atf involved share at least 1/2 of the responsibility for both deaths. The death of both of those men could have been easily avoided by following proper procedures and planning. mike

No matter how righteous the shooting SOMEONE will always "Monday Morning Quarterback" the scenario. I was not at the "Beck Incident" so I will comment on a shooting I DO KNOW THE FACTS ON and that raised some controversy over the out come. Just before I joined the Dept. I'm with now they had a situation that a few citizens thought could have been handled different. Just before 17:00 on 11/10/98 a call came in to the Comm Center of a man walking through an area shooting at anything that moved and that several people had been shot. Units were dispatched, BUT the info on his location was "off". The first responding Unit drove past his location and received rifle fire from behind, Officer Brad Arn left a wife and two young daughters. The gunman was armed with a MAK-90, several 75 round drums and numerous 30 round magazines. As Officers continued to arrive on the scene, the gunman continued to fire at them and anything else he could find. Paramedics under fire moved in to help the wounded. All of the Officers on the scene knew that a fellow Officer was already dead but at that time there was no time to grieve. While HUNDREDS of rounds were being fired in their direction they tried to stop the gunman. One Officer quickly stood up from behind his Patrol Car and fired one round from his HK USP .45 killing the gunman at 47 yards away. In the aftermath of the shooting the Department was criticized for handcuffing a dead man (when he was handcuffed no one was sure he was dead), leaving him lay there too long, not taking him alive, not "taking him out" quick enough, etc., etc. The point is in a shooting the Media and "Joe Public" is going to crucify you no matter what way it was handled. The only thing a Department can do is to hold their head up and try and follow the S.O.P. You want us to be "Supermen" but we are not. Not that it matters to some of you (some will even enjoy this next comment) but Police Officers have one of the HIGHEST suicide rates in the country. Also one of the highest divorce rates. Meaningless statistics ? Tell that to my wife who was Dispatching one night and received this call: Dispatcher: 911, What is your emergency ? Caller: Lori ? Dispatcher: Yes, is this ************* ? Caller: Yeah, I just called to say goodbye. I can't handle it anymore...CLICK My wife hit the call-back button while Dispatching Officers, First Responders, and EMT's. The phone rang, and rang while another Dispatcher answered a call reporting that they had heard a gunshot. Or how about one of our Officers who showed up at his estranged wife's house at 05:00 Christmas morning, kneeled down in the front yard, stuck a gun in his mouth and ended his life. Yeah, we are ALL COLD-BLOODED KILLERS who are just waiting for a chance to "smoke" a gunowner. That is why after you do end someone's life no matter how "right" the shooting was, the DEMONS come to haunt you night after night. You replay the shooting over and over trying to figure out how you could handled it differently so no one had died. You can't talk to your Partner because he MUST have trust in your ability and know that you aren't falling apart. You can't talk to your wife because she would NOT understand what you are going through. And you sure as HELL can't discuss it with your Supervisor or Department "Shrink" because if you do your career is OVER !!!

So one afternoon after the wife and kids have left for the mall you sit down in your chair with your sidearm and................... Oh well, just another dead Cop who couldn't handle the job. He should have quit if it was too much for him to take. BTW, Striker. 1* is from Gary Paul Johnson who was with the Shaker Heights Ohio S.W.A.T. Unit. And yes, when I was Chief of a small Dept. I have sent Officers (and myself) in harms way. Monday Morning Quarterbacks, gotta luv em !!! Gunrunner [b]1*[/b]

have you heard me say that killing beck was not justified if he was shooting? I don't think so. Nor do i think offing a dumbass activily shooting at leo's with a AK is wrong. The point is "when they arrived, according to the atf, they had no warrant." Therefore no authorization to search his residence. He opened fire, he is a dumbass. The LEO's in question were dumbasses for not properly serving a warrant and allowing him to set them up. WTF does this have to do with your 2 shootings? I've worked ems and Public safety and taken fire while on duty. Hell i got shot at less in the army than i did in Mobile AL working EMS. The bottom line is whether beck was right or wrong the ATF FUCKED UP! For starters they should never have been there until after he was arrested for felony posseion of a firearm. State and local PD should have made the arrest and the ATF brought in after the fact for Federal charges. At least that is the way it should work.

Dammit, Gunrunner--I never cry (except when my Grandfather and best-ever dog died), but I'm sitting here with tears in my eyes after reading your post. I don't know what else to say. I hope you understand John Q. Public (me) will never be able to fully comprehend this. Thank you so much for communicating it in a forthright, intelligent, touching manner. Thank you, Sir, and God bless you daily.

The_Beer_Slayer, my point AS I STATED is that no matter how we as Officers handle ourselves there are always going to be people telling us what we did WRONG !!!! I WILL NOT COMMENT ANY FURTHER ON THE BECK SHOOTING AS I DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS !!!!!! And FACTS are not what the Media OR the Public are interested in. You are getting your "FACTS" from the Media, as an Officer I have a greater distrust of the Media than most people do. Again I posted what I KNEW to be the FACTS on an incident and how we were "tarred and feathered" when we did handle it by the book. I do not know whether the Officers in question had the warrant with them or not......DO YOU ??? Gunrunner

for starters if an LEO makes a bad shoot then it is our "the lowly public" Duty to tar and feather the officer in question. The public at large ha s big distrust of you guys due to the number of bad shooting that have been made. I have no problem with a justified use of deadly force. But it seems the attitude of some leo's today is he's breathing therefore he is a threat. This is wrong. I've been in your shoes and i know first ahnd it is a very difficult job. I learned quickly it was not a career i wanted due to the amount of blatant corruption i saw first hand. You guys that are LEO's with the local and state PD do an admirable job. There a few bad cops out there but most of the leo's i meet are decent people. As for the warrant yes i do know it was not there. The ATF stated that.

i understand the sealed warrant. But are they not supposed to have at least a copy of the search warrant to present? The agent in the interview stated the warrant was sealed and not on site. I kinda got off on a tanget with the warrant issue. My biggest problem is with the handling of the whole situation. There had to be 100 better ways to handle that. mike

Ya know, now that I think about it, that is almost the same thing that happened at Lubbock, excepet they hit the right house, but it was one of thier own guys who shop the cop. End result was the same, once a cop went down they were out for blood, innocent or not. Only thier poor markmanship kept them from comitting murder that day. Hmmm I wonder if other incidents could be found that would show a loss of "control" or a "he(or they) is as good as dead now" attitude following the loss of an officer?(other than Ruby Ridge). 2 well known ones in about two months, how many didn't make the news or didn't get published? Losing one of your own has to be a difficult thing, but is no excuse for that kind of misconduct. Perhaps it is something that LEO's should be better trained and prepared for to aviod this kind of incident, or better policies could be in place. How much training is typically given to dealing with the immediate death of a co-worker? Yep, I am a Monday morning Quaterback, but deal with it. When you have the power to go out and kill with government authority, you better damm well believe you are gonna get second guessed when someone dies. If we didn't, we wouldn't be responsible citizens. Its part of the balance of power. Just like when we, as citizens, are forced to take a life in self defense, we too will be second guesed.... many times by the police.