Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
Posted: 4/28/2018 1:35:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/28/2018 1:37:34 PM EDT by green_bullet]
Recent FB posts by classmates (law school) saying they don't care that police are legally justified in the recent shootings, "LMPD is out of control", calling me mean names and hurting my feelings (sarcasm) etc, I decided to take a break from studying for my criminal procedure final to see what all the screeching was about

By the numbers, it doesn't look to me like there is a race/police problem.

Since 2010 LMPD has reported almost 8000 incidents of officers being assaulted. That's almost 3 officers a day "assaulted" by suspects, for 8 years.

In 2016, the FBI reported Louisville to have a population of nearly 685,000 people. Over 6500 violent crimes were reported (violent crime, rape, and robbery). There were over 84,000 crimes total according to LMPD.

There are no numbers on race, that I can find, for Louisville crimes, so I'll use the FBI 2016 national data. Roughly 70% of crimes committed by White, 27-30% by Black of African American.
Louisville's population is approximately 70% white and 22% Black or African American.

From 2011 to 2015 (that's 5 years) LMPD has 27 Officer Involved Shootings, with 40 officers involved, resulting in 7 lethal shootings of suspects (25%) , 2 self-inflicted, and 18 non-lethal shootings (67%). Of those 40 officers, 16 were a white officer shooting a black suspect (45%), 13 were a white officer shooting a white suspect (32.5%), 8 were a black officer shooting a black suspect (20%), and 1 black officer shooting a white suspect (2.5%). Out of 1235 sworn officers on the LMPD force as of 2018, approximately 83% are white and 12% are black.

So, you have the numbers more or less lining up. The only disparity I found is on a national level, where in race and crime as a whole. From the 2010 census 73.6% of the U.S. population was white and 12.6% was black of African American. Yet according to the FBI while roughly 70% of crimes were committed by white, the majority of the remaining 30% was by black. There can be several factors that would explain this, or there might be nothing significant.

Some quotes from the snowflakes that started my inquiry, for your entertainment. Just for reference, this is all pertaining to defending 4 criminals who shot at/threw knives at our local officers in the past month, who were subsequently shot when they attacked officers. She is a HUGE Black Lies Matter supporter and is always pestering me on FB when I post pro-gun or pro-police stuff. It finally got to where I can share some of the choice things that were said.

there is footage from three officers, which I assume you have seen, in which one officer in a car radios that shots have been fired at his car; he shoots through his windshield at the suspect and two other officers simultaneously run up on the man shouting "MOTHERFUCKER, MOTHERFUCKER!" and empty their clips into him, then yell at him to roll over on the ground after shooting him 20 times. This seems excessive to me, to put it in the most polite way I can manage.
View Quote
I pointed out that offended me, as they were magazines, and not clips. I was told I had no empathy for human life :/

This is probably the crux of the issue. I don't care if these shootings are legally justifiable; I care that three people are dead. Legally justifiable doesn't mean "good." It doesn't mean it's acceptable that people are dying violent deaths in the street. If you care about officer safety AND you are also interested in finding ways to deescalate deadly confrontations between officers and civilians, which aside from these three incidents in our city have increased nationally this year by about 10%, then we can talk about that.
View Quote
if you think that the only thing that matters is that the suspect/victim is to blame and therefore their death doesn't matter because they were a "criminal" / aggressor, if you think it's their own fault or they got what they deserved, then there's no point in me trying to convince you otherwise because we have a fundamental disagreement about the value of human life.
View Quote
You continue to fall back on the idea that people "who chose to put themselves in those situations by breaking the law in the first place" are, first of all "not scared people," which seems dehumanizing, and in a larger sense have brought death upon themselves. As I mentioned above, I'm not interested in devaluing life on the basis of criminal activity. People should not be executed in the street for breaking the law, as you stated yourself. Three people have been killed this week by the police in this city. How are we going to deal with that? How are we going to prevent this from happening again? That's what I care about.
View Quote
Someone tried pointing out that it wasn't the law breaking that got the suspects shot, it was their attacking police. to which we get this gem

No, they broke the law, then the police confronted them, often with weapons drawn, which the police are legally entitled to do, then they (the suspects) respond in kind, which then becomes the justification for the the police kill them. It's a no-win framework for anyone engaged in an altercation with the police that justifies police killings. But more to the point, even if your framing is right, you're just reaching for another reason to say, "It's okay that they died. It's okay that 350 people have been killed by police this year. This is fair." My point is if you don't think this is a problem in the first place, we're never going to agree.
View Quote
When I see black and brown bodies consistently having their life stolen from them before their time by the people meant to protect them, I see a system that is malfunctioning.
When you look at that same scene, you see the system working directly as intended.
View Quote
Link Posted: 4/28/2018 2:28:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/28/2018 2:28:29 PM EDT by Muiredach]
I can save you a lot of effort. People who have their minds made up are often galvanized into believing their narrative, and no amount of sound, rigid evidence that contradicts that narrative will sway them in the least. Working on convincing them that they are wrong is a fool's errand.

Would anyone consider an attempt to engage in a rational discussion with a member of the Westboro Baptist Church? Because they employ the exact same intellectual contortions as the people you are conversing with.

For these people, there is simply no justification for anyone in uniform to use deadly physical force, ever. The Officer's job is to die with his weapon holstered.

There is one exception, of course. They will support Officers using deadly force to impose their own policies in an attempt to reshape society as *they* wish to see it, in the name of social justice.
Link Posted: 4/28/2018 2:40:54 PM EDT
Good post. It's not my only thought/take away but if you shoot even one round at me there is no amount of return fire that is excessive.
Link Posted: 4/28/2018 4:50:29 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Patriot43:
Good post. It's not my only thought/take away but if you shoot even one round at me there is no amount of return fire that is excessive.
View Quote
Shoot until the threat is over
Link Posted: 4/29/2018 1:07:03 PM EDT
Cops are supposed to protect the lives of violent criminals that are trying to kill the cop? I don’t think so.
Link Posted: 4/29/2018 2:15:46 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Muiredach:
I can save you a lot of effort. People who have their minds made up are often galvanized into believing their narrative, and no amount of sound, rigid evidence that contradicts that narrative will sway them in the least. Working on convincing them that they are wrong is a fool's errand.

Would anyone consider an attempt to engage in a rational discussion with a member of the Westboro Baptist Church? Because they employ the exact same intellectual contortions as the people you are conversing with.

For these people, there is simply no justification for anyone in uniform to use deadly physical force, ever. The Officer's job is to die with his weapon holstered.

There is one exception, of course. They will support Officers using deadly force to impose their own policies in an attempt to reshape society as *they* wish to see it, in the name of social justice.
View Quote
This pretty much sums it up.

They already hate cops, therefore no matter what cops are already guilty and criminals are innocent. This won't change until they themselves are victims of crime - or until they can use cops as a personal army to wipe out those who they dislike.
Link Posted: 4/29/2018 5:13:28 PM EDT
Good post OP but....
You're trying to apply logic where none exists. Some people respond emotionally to situations which aren't. You commit a crime you go to jail one way or another. If you resist you get hurt, the degress of which is proportional to the resistance. You react by drawing a deadly weapon you're gonna get shot. There's no emotion, simply a response of lethal force against that force.

Some of these people are simply clueless and do not understand the dynamics of a lethal force encounter. Others are misguided by others with an agenda.
Link Posted: 4/29/2018 5:26:36 PM EDT
You honky motherfucker.

Click To View Spoiler
Link Posted: 4/30/2018 10:45:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By green_bullet:
Recent FB posts by classmates (law school) saying they don't care that police are legally justified in the recent shootings, "LMPD is out of control", calling me mean names and hurting my feelings (sarcasm) etc, I decided to take a break from studying for my criminal procedure final to see what all the screeching was about

By the numbers, it doesn't look to me like there is a race/police problem.

Since 2010 LMPD has reported almost 8000 incidents of officers being assaulted. That's almost 3 officers a day "assaulted" by suspects, for 8 years.

In 2016, the FBI reported Louisville to have a population of nearly 685,000 people. Over 6500 violent crimes were reported (violent crime, rape, and robbery). There were over 84,000 crimes total according to LMPD.

There are no numbers on race, that I can find, for Louisville crimes, so I'll use the FBI 2016 national data. Roughly 70% of crimes committed by White, 27-30% by Black of African American.
Louisville's population is approximately 70% white and 22% Black or African American.

From 2011 to 2015 (that's 5 years) LMPD has 27 Officer Involved Shootings, with 40 officers involved, resulting in 7 lethal shootings of suspects (25%) , 2 self-inflicted, and 18 non-lethal shootings (67%). Of those 40 officers, 16 were a white officer shooting a black suspect (45%), 13 were a white officer shooting a white suspect (32.5%), 8 were a black officer shooting a black suspect (20%), and 1 black officer shooting a white suspect (2.5%). Out of 1235 sworn officers on the LMPD force as of 2018, approximately 83% are white and 12% are black.

So, you have the numbers more or less lining up. The only disparity I found is on a national level, where in race and crime as a whole. From the 2010 census 73.6% of the U.S. population was white and 12.6% was black of African American. Yet according to the FBI while roughly 70% of crimes were committed by white, the majority of the remaining 30% was by black. There can be several factors that would explain this, or there might be nothing significant.

Some quotes from the snowflakes that started my inquiry, for your entertainment. Just for reference, this is all pertaining to defending 4 criminals who shot at/threw knives at our local officers in the past month, who were subsequently shot when they attacked officers. She is a HUGE Black Lies Matter supporter and is always pestering me on FB when I post pro-gun or pro-police stuff. It finally got to where I can share some of the choice things that were said.

there is footage from three officers, which I assume you have seen, in which one officer in a car radios that shots have been fired at his car; he shoots through his windshield at the suspect and two other officers simultaneously run up on the man shouting "MOTHERFUCKER, MOTHERFUCKER!" and empty their clips into him, then yell at him to roll over on the ground after shooting him 20 times. This seems excessive to me, to put it in the most polite way I can manage.
View Quote
I pointed out that offended me, as they were magazines, and not clips. I was told I had no empathy for human life :/

This is probably the crux of the issue. I don't care if these shootings are legally justifiable; I care that three people are dead. Legally justifiable doesn't mean "good." It doesn't mean it's acceptable that people are dying violent deaths in the street. If you care about officer safety AND you are also interested in finding ways to deescalate deadly confrontations between officers and civilians, which aside from these three incidents in our city have increased nationally this year by about 10%, then we can talk about that.
View Quote
if you think that the only thing that matters is that the suspect/victim is to blame and therefore their death doesn't matter because they were a "criminal" / aggressor, if you think it's their own fault or they got what they deserved, then there's no point in me trying to convince you otherwise because we have a fundamental disagreement about the value of human life.
View Quote
You continue to fall back on the idea that people "who chose to put themselves in those situations by breaking the law in the first place" are, first of all "not scared people," which seems dehumanizing, and in a larger sense have brought death upon themselves. As I mentioned above, I'm not interested in devaluing life on the basis of criminal activity. People should not be executed in the street for breaking the law, as you stated yourself. Three people have been killed this week by the police in this city. How are we going to deal with that? How are we going to prevent this from happening again? That's what I care about.
View Quote
Someone tried pointing out that it wasn't the law breaking that got the suspects shot, it was their attacking police. to which we get this gem

No, they broke the law, then the police confronted them, often with weapons drawn, which the police are legally entitled to do, then they (the suspects) respond in kind, which then becomes the justification for the the police kill them. It's a no-win framework for anyone engaged in an altercation with the police that justifies police killings. But more to the point, even if your framing is right, you're just reaching for another reason to say, "It's okay that they died. It's okay that 350 people have been killed by police this year. This is fair." My point is if you don't think this is a problem in the first place, we're never going to agree.
View Quote
When I see black and brown bodies consistently having their life stolen from them before their time by the people meant to protect them, I see a system that is malfunctioning.
When you look at that same scene, you see the system working directly as intended.
View Quote
View Quote

Are they including Hispanic in those stats as being "white?"
Link Posted: 4/30/2018 11:22:02 PM EDT
Luckily, LMPD didn’t get any heat when the female officer shot the black guy hiding behind the mattress in the abandoned house.

Other than that, the other shootings have been very clear and justified. Most were handled as good as they could be and body camera showed it.

My little cousin was involved in the PRP shooting where the guy had a screwdriver.
Link Posted: 5/24/2018 6:36:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2018 6:39:18 PM EDT by Firecop203]
“ the police confronted them, often with weapons drawn, which the police are legally entitled to do”

Well DUH.....when police arrive and confront with weapons drawn, they aren’t coming there for a fast draw contest like the old west. Since your classmates are such experts in law enforcement, I recommend that any or all put on a uniform and get some first hand experience. See what they say in a couple of years.
Link Posted: 5/24/2018 6:42:05 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Muiredach:
I can save you a lot of effort. People who have their minds made up are often galvanized into believing their narrative, and no amount of sound, rigid evidence that contradicts that narrative will sway them in the least. Working on convincing them that they are wrong is a fool's errand.

Would anyone consider an attempt to engage in a rational discussion with a member of the Westboro Baptist Church? Because they employ the exact same intellectual contortions as the people you are conversing with.

For these people, there is simply no justification for anyone in uniform to use deadly physical force, ever. The Officer's job is to die with his weapon holstered.

There is one exception, of course. They will support Officers using deadly force to impose their own policies in an attempt to reshape society as *they* wish to see it, in the name of social justice.
View Quote
/Fin
Top Top