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Posted: 11/1/2009 12:23:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/1/2009 12:28:03 PM EST by AR15fan]
LAPD has agreed to a 2-year contract with no pay increase. That's no surprise, nobody should be getting a pay raise in this economy. What is surprising is they agreed to no monetary compensation for overtime. Instead they will get "paid" for overtime worked in comp time. Thats going to be a huge hit for the OT whores.

The bigger issue is will the supervisors ever let them use the comp time? Hey Sarge, i worked so much overtime the last couple months I've got 80 hours of comp time..can I have the next two weeks off?

"LAPD officials say it could take at least six months before they know how the changes will affect those who work the most overtime hours, such as homicide detectives, patrol officers who make arrests late in their shift and officers with lengthy court appearances.

"Will it affect deployment? Yes, sir. It's going to affect deployment," said Rhonda Sims-Lewis, bureau chief for the LAPD's administrative and technical services bureau. "We will have people taking more days off."

Link Posted: 11/1/2009 12:26:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
nobody should be getting a pay raise in this economy.


You're more than welcome to come out here and try to take the raise we got last week out of my paychecks
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 12:26:14 PM EST
My work just eliminated comp time saying it was bad. Back to OT.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 12:29:50 PM EST
Got a link for that bro?
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 12:31:52 PM EST
I'm giving my employees a whopping $0.25/hour raise. I got zip. Government.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 12:34:21 PM EST
Bastards want to get paid for putting on and taking off their uniform. Greedy fucking bastards. I have no problem doing that (unpaid) when Im on duty.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 12:36:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By Zakk_Wylde_470:
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
nobody should be getting a pay raise in this economy.


You're more than welcome to come out here and try to take the raise we got last week out of my paychecks


2nd this. Some companies, like mine, are actually doing well in the economy.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 12:38:36 PM EST
Time off is OK because crime is down, but not due to good police work. It's because the shitty economy forced a million criminal illegal aliens to go home to Mexico.

Link Posted: 11/1/2009 12:44:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By DOA:
Bastards want to get paid for putting on and taking off their uniform. .


There is more to it than that.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 12:50:10 PM EST


I think our department encounters that every time there is a contract negotiation. Comp time is actually costs more to the city than OT. Comp time is all paid in the future. I have 400 hours of comp time banked at the time. Some of it accrued 10 years ago when I was making half the amount of money I am today. If I left tomorrow, that would all have to be paid out.

Link Posted: 11/1/2009 12:55:24 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 1:04:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/1/2009 1:05:32 PM EST by kennymc80]
Could they not take OT as comp time before. We have the option with OT, pay or time, with the exception of some special details here and there.

Not to difficult to get time off, and there are federal regs about it if someone wants to get too pissy.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 1:05:54 PM EST
And when they approach their limit for banked CTO and are not allowed to take CTO for minimum staffing reasons, then what? It's easy to bank 100 hours worth of CTO pretty quickly and if you start having to work OT without being able to bank the rest of it, nor take off time to get your hours down, what happens to morale after that?
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 1:09:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By uglygun:
And when they approach their limit for banked CTO and are not allowed to take CTO for minimum staffing reasons, then what? It's easy to bank 100 hours worth of CTO pretty quickly and if you start having to work OT without being able to bank the rest of it, nor take off time to get your hours down, what happens to morale after that?


Thats the issue. When supervisors start ordering guys to stay late and come in unpaid, and knowingly they will never actually be allowed to take those comp time hours off. The next time they have a big wildfire or something guys are going to be alot less likely to work those 16.5 hour days 7-days a week knowing they are only getting paid for 40 hours.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 1:10:01 PM EST
the employment situation isn't getting any better. I'm not sure why the downturn isn't supposed to impact all segments.

I work in IT. I have gotten hammered over the past 2 yrs. 57 hours last week and I still get paid for the usual 40. Anybody here give a shit? Didn't think so
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 1:10:07 PM EST
Is it hour for hour... or time and a half comp...
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 1:11:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By kennymc80:

Not to difficult to get time off, and there are federal regs about it if someone wants to get too pissy.


What? My comp time balance hasnt went down in 16 years. I can take vacation time if nobody else is on vacation. I can take sick time if I'm sick. But a comp day has never been approved. Can you point out these federal rules that say they have to let me use my comp time? Would be good info to have.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 1:17:40 PM EST
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By DOA:
Bastards want to get paid for putting on and taking off their uniform. .


There is more to it than that.



A LOT more....think vehicle prep, fuel, searching car, reviewing previous shift's events, going over intel notices, etc.

It isn't like you just put on a shirt with a badge on it and head out the door

Link Posted: 11/1/2009 1:17:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By kennymc80:

Not to difficult to get time off, and there are federal regs about it if someone wants to get too pissy.


What? My comp time balance hasnt went down in 16 years. I can take vacation time if nobody else is on vacation. I can take sick time if I'm sick. But a comp day has never been approved. Can you point out these federal rules that say they have to let me use my comp time? Would be good info to have.

No shit.

This.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 1:23:27 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 1:25:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By LockingBlock:
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By DOA:
Bastards want to get paid for putting on and taking off their uniform. .


There is more to it than that.



A LOT more....think vehicle prep, fuel, searching car, reviewing previous shift's events, going over intel notices, etc.

It isn't like you just put on a shirt with a badge on it and head out the door



Checking out a shotgun, rifle, pepperball gun, less lethal, taser, radio, PAS, E-PAS and inspecting them all for proper operation. Log into MDC, log into PVS, Check department Email, taser download, Check department voice mail. Check Subpeona in box. It all better be done before briefing which begins at your start time. Which means you spend about an hour working before your shift and after your shift without getting paid for those extra 2-hours at the station.

Link Posted: 11/1/2009 1:27:22 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 1:27:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/1/2009 1:29:27 PM EST by LANCEMAN]

Originally Posted By MHarvey124:
Originally Posted By Zakk_Wylde_470:
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
nobody should be getting a pay raise in this economy.


You're more than welcome to come out here and try to take the raise we got last week out of my paychecks


2nd this. Some companies, like mine, are actually doing well in the economy.

The company I'm employed by had a record year, I got a 12% raise six months ago.

We have always had the option, time and a half OT or 1.5 hours CT for each extra hour worked. I always take the money, I never have time to take all my vacation days, damn sure wouldn't have a chance to use CT.

ETA: I agree though, no government employees should be getting a pay raise with tax revenues way down.

Link Posted: 11/1/2009 1:28:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/1/2009 1:30:13 PM EST by 1387Delta]

Originally Posted By MAP:
Originally Posted By Star_Scream:
My work just eliminated comp time saying it was bad. Back to OT.


OT is less expensive in the long run. Under the the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) you can only accumulate 480 hours of comp time. When you retire the employer must pay you the comp at the current rate. By replacing OT with comp. all LA did is defer the expense to a future administration at an increased cost.

Mike


My Department ran into the comp time / OT and put everyone on comp time only. The problem is the cap and then you have a use it or lose it situation. That's right you lose it - no compensation for it, it's just gone. It's a nice bump at retirement, but getting comp time off is a MF'er.

ETA: Nobody wanted to work for comp only. The OT whores faded away.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 1:30:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By MAP:
Originally Posted By Star_Scream:
My work just eliminated comp time saying it was bad. Back to OT.


OT is less expensive in the long run. Under the the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) you can only accumulate 480 hours of comp time. When you retire the employer must pay you the comp at the current rate. By replacing OT with comp. all LA did is defer the expense to a future administration at an increased cost.

Mike





My dept only allows 100 hours, 120 if you get approval from the administration for more. So the issue of taking that time off once you approach the max becomes a pretty big motivation if you know that more over time is coming down the pike at some point in the future, motivation is to hover around 60-80 hours and if you are going to peg 100 you better burn 10-16 hours soon. Same goes for those who are near maxing vacation time and tend to take 1 day a month off on vacation given they gain 8 hours vacation per month.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 1:34:16 PM EST
I've personally never liked having too much time off work, it's too expensive. I start doing projects around the house, taking the boat out, going on trips. It costs me money to have days off.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 1:35:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/1/2009 1:42:01 PM EST by kennymc80]
Originally Posted By MAP:
Originally Posted By Pita_146:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By kennymc80:

Not to difficult to get time off, and there are federal regs about it if someone wants to get too pissy.


What? My comp time balance hasnt went down in 16 years. I can take vacation time if nobody else is on vacation. I can take sick time if I'm sick. But a comp day has never been approved. Can you point out these federal rules that say they have to let me use my comp time? Would be good info to have.

No shit.



You need this book

Thank me later.

Mike


This
Buried somewhere in the FLSA regs they have to make an attempt to get someone else to work (OT or otherwise) before they can deny you taking a comp day off.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 1:40:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By uglygun:
And when they approach their limit for banked CTO and are not allowed to take CTO for minimum staffing reasons, then what? It's easy to bank 100 hours worth of CTO pretty quickly and if you start having to work OT without being able to bank the rest of it, nor take off time to get your hours down, what happens to morale after that?


Thats the issue. When supervisors start ordering guys to stay late and come in unpaid, and knowingly they will never actually be allowed to take those comp time hours off. The next time they have a big wildfire or something guys are going to be alot less likely to work those 16.5 hour days 7-days a week knowing they are only getting paid for 40 hours.


Gets even better when they do like my old agency did. You'd bank the comp time, which after an accumulation of 240 hours rolls into sick time. Unless you burn absolutely stupid amounts of sick leave (which can get you in big trouble), it stays in sick until you leave or retire, at which point the agency will pay you no more than half of your sick, usually less. The agency keeps half the hours/money or more, and you lose your time.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 1:43:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By 1387Delta:

Originally Posted By MAP:
Originally Posted By Star_Scream:
My work just eliminated comp time saying it was bad. Back to OT.


OT is less expensive in the long run. Under the the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) you can only accumulate 480 hours of comp time. When you retire the employer must pay you the comp at the current rate. By replacing OT with comp. all LA did is defer the expense to a future administration at an increased cost.

Mike


My Department ran into the comp time / OT and put everyone on comp time only. The problem is the cap and then you have a use it or lose it situation. That's right you lose it - no compensation for it, it's just gone. It's a nice bump at retirement, but getting comp time off is a MF'er.

ETA: Nobody wanted to work for comp only. The OT whores faded away.


They capped ours at some low number so people wouldn't volunteer and they created staffing issues and it ended up biting them in the ass.

Also if they would let us gain it early and keep it till later in our careers it would cost them too much.

Makes me happy as a tax payer and I'm indifferent as an employee.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 1:46:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/1/2009 1:49:32 PM EST by Paul]
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 1:51:34 PM EST
From the FLSA

"Under certain prescribed conditions, a State or local government agency may give compensatory time at a rate of not less than one and one-half hours for each overtime hour worked, in lieu of cash overtime compensation. Employees engaged in police and fire protection work may accrue up to 480 hours of compensatory time.
An employee should be permitted to use compensatory time within a reasonable period after making the request, if doing so does not "unduly disrupt" the operations of the employer.
At the time of termination an employee must be paid the higher of (1) his/her final regular rate of pay or (2) the average regular rate during his\her last three years of employment for any compensatory time remaining "on the books" when termination occurs."

It has gone to court many times around the country. Seems the "unduly disrupt" is the problematic part.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 1:59:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By kennymc80:
From the FLSA

"Under certain prescribed conditions, a State or local government agency may give compensatory time at a rate of not less than one and one-half hours for each overtime hour worked, in lieu of cash overtime compensation. Employees engaged in police and fire protection work may accrue up to 480 hours of compensatory time.
An employee should be permitted to use compensatory time within a reasonable period after making the request, if doing so does not "unduly disrupt" the operations of the employer.
At the time of termination an employee must be paid the higher of (1) his/her final regular rate of pay or (2) the average regular rate during his\her last three years of employment for any compensatory time remaining "on the books" when termination occurs."

It has gone to court many times around the country. Seems the "unduly disrupt" is the problematic part.


anytime it says "should" instead of "Shall" it means wont instead of will.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 2:02:43 PM EST
So legally what happens when the LAPD officers accrue a bus-load of comp time and the department doesn't give them the time off. Can the courts force the departments to break loose some cash, give the officer the time off, or are the officers just plain fucked.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 2:05:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By lostnswv:
So legally what happens when the LAPD officers accrue a bus-load of comp time and the department doesn't give them the time off. Can the courts force the departments to break loose some cash, give the officer the time off, or are the officers just plain fucked.


It likely just sit there until they retire and they will get cut a check. So its essentially a forced interest free savings account.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 2:06:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/1/2009 2:11:33 PM EST by operatorerror]
Is there a cap on accumulated comp time there? If not, then I would be banking as much comp time as possible. They have to pay you in full for it when you retire.



eta We have a cap. 96 hours. I maxed out my comp time bank in 1987.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 2:15:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By operatorerror:
Is there a cap on accumulated comp time there? If not, then I would be banking as much comp time as possible. They have to pay you in full for it when you retire.


You would make more if you took the money now and invested it. Your comp time account doesnt pay interest.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 2:18:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By lostnswv:
So legally what happens when the LAPD officers accrue a bus-load of comp time and the department doesn't give them the time off. Can the courts force the departments to break loose some cash, give the officer the time off, or are the officers just plain fucked.


It likely just sit there until they retire and they will get cut a check. So its essentially a forced interest free savings account.

If they have a cap, and I don't know if they do or what it is, they have a maximum amount of OT they can acquire. When they hit the limit, they have to take it off or they lose it. Oh, and don't forget that they can be ordered to work overtime.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 2:19:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/1/2009 2:21:22 PM EST by 1387Delta]

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By operatorerror:
Is there a cap on accumulated comp time there? If not, then I would be banking as much comp time as possible. They have to pay you in full for it when you retire.


You would make more if you took the money now and invested it. Your comp time account doesnt pay interest.

Kind of. If you acquired the comp time at $25.00 per hour and retired at $35.00 per hour, they have to pay you at the $35.00 per hour rate.

ETA: Some of this is an MOA issue.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 3:16:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By kennymc80:
Could they not take OT as comp time before. We have the option with OT, pay or time, with the exception of some special details here and there.

Not to difficult to get time off, and there are federal regs about it if someone wants to get too pissy.


Federal Regs do not apply when a collective bargaining agreement is in place.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 3:27:50 PM EST
we have no cap here in DC.

I know guys that earned thousands of hours of comp time when they were homicide detectives/ vice officers. Good thing is that when you retire here they have to pay you out at YOUR CURRENT RANK when you retire. So my partner made captain 2 yrs b4 he left. His 990 hours of comp timed that he had carried and built for years as an officer and sergeant were paid out at his current rank of a top step captain. And in DC a top step captain has a base of 150k or so....990 hours at like 80-90 bucks an hour made for a nice fat check.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 3:38:31 PM EST

I am not the one to be sympathetic to pay issues.

My company has never given me a raise.

I am in sales- you want to make more?? Fucking sell more. Period.

I can't really see why people automatically expect to get paid more for the same work.

4073
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 3:38:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By kennymc80:
From the FLSA

"Under certain prescribed conditions, a State or local government agency may give compensatory time at a rate of not less than one and one-half hours for each overtime hour worked, in lieu of cash overtime compensation. Employees engaged in police and fire protection work may accrue up to 480 hours of compensatory time.
An employee should be permitted to use compensatory time within a reasonable period after making the request, if doing so does not "unduly disrupt" the operations of the employer.
At the time of termination an employee must be paid the higher of (1) his/her final regular rate of pay or (2) the average regular rate during his\her last three years of employment for any compensatory time remaining "on the books" when termination occurs."

It has gone to court many times around the country. Seems the "unduly disrupt" is the problematic part.


My employer is very easy to disrupt.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 3:44:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By PaDanby:
Originally Posted By kennymc80:
Could they not take OT as comp time before. We have the option with OT, pay or time, with the exception of some special details here and there.

Not to difficult to get time off, and there are federal regs about it if someone wants to get too pissy.


Federal Regs do not apply when a collective bargaining agreement is in place.


Says who?
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 3:44:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By LockingBlock:
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By DOA:
Bastards want to get paid for putting on and taking off their uniform. .


There is more to it than that.



A LOT more....think vehicle prep, fuel, searching car, reviewing previous shift's events, going over intel notices, etc.

It isn't like you just put on a shirt with a badge on it and head out the door



I know how it is, I still do the job, just part-time. We refuel, and do briefings/intel ON THE CLOCK. Vehicle prep is done by a service and washing the car is a no biggie. Now, perhaps in other Depts its different but in mine its not an issue.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 3:46:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By MFP_4073:

I am not the one to be sympathetic to pay issues.

My company has never given me a raise.

I am in sales- you want to make more?? Fucking sell more. Period.

I can't really see why people automatically expect to get paid more for the same work.

4073



For one thing the cost of living tends to go up. Most departments probably average a 2-3% raise every year or two. Cops don't get paid based on the amount of tickets they write or people they arrest, regardless of what some may think.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 3:52:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By DOA:

I know how it is, I still do the job, just part-time. We refuel, and do briefings/intel ON THE CLOCK. Vehicle prep is done by a service and washing the car is a no biggie. Now, perhaps in other Depts its different but in mine its not an issue.


Well in others it is.

In places that have had disputes over "donning" and "dofffing" are generally places that expect officers to "be ready" the second their shift "starts".

Usually that "being ready" means that squads are loaded, weapons checked out, briefings read, etc. All of which takes time. If it is required to be done, it should be on the clock.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 3:56:34 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 3:58:47 PM EST
"Comp Time" is the biggest scam ever. You get "paid in time" that you worked over and above your scheduled hours. Most localities have hiring freezes..so you never get fresh new bodies, so...you guessed it....you never get to USE THE DAMN TIME THAT YOU "EARN"––-thusly, you work for NOTHING.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 4:02:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By LordSkeletor:
"Comp Time" is the biggest scam ever. You get "paid in time" that you worked over and above your scheduled hours. Most localities have hiring freezes..so you never get fresh new bodies, so...you guessed it....you never get to USE THE DAMN TIME THAT YOU "EARN"––-thusly, you work for NOTHING.


I LOVE comp time. I take all my OT as comp time, but then I do get to use it. It is one of the only benefits of the job here, lots of time off.

Hell I get 6 hours of comp time just for showing up for court.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 4:02:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By LordSkeletor:
"Comp Time" is the biggest scam ever. You get "paid in time" that you worked over and above your scheduled hours. Most localities have hiring freezes..so you never get fresh new bodies, so...you guessed it....you never get to USE THE DAMN TIME THAT YOU "EARN"––-thusly, you work for NOTHING.


We have in our contract that we get paid down to 16 hours of comp, for the last pay period of the year.

We can bank up to 160.
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 4:07:32 PM EST
Fun days ahead for those show up when half the shift is gone.

911 is going to need some quality elevator musak.
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