I would like to start off by saying that this post is made without anger. I realize it's hard, sometimes, to tell over the internet.
For those of you who are jumping on the "Anything Anti-U.S.Government" bandwagon, please take some time to learn about the issue surrounding the Klamath river and all the other rivers in this area. I am only posting my opinion and what facts I do have.
  FIRST, it's not just a "sucker fish" that's being looked at here, it's the salmon. There USED to be a commercial fishing industry in Northern California and Southern Oregon. How many of you know about those families and what happened to them? How many of you care as much about them(how about it, critter?)? Farms require vast amounts of water, some do. The rivers here see alot of use and abuse from all directions, but there can be no denying that a number of farmers have been diverting too much of the liquid gold. TOO MUCH? Yes. We have too many farms and ranches in America, and some are too damn big! I've grown up and lived the vast majority of my life in the West and I've known a fair share of farmers and ranchers. They do work hard. They do struggle and reap small financial gain (some do anyway). But what some of them are doing is overproducing, be it for profit or just to sustain the spread by increasing output. Farms used to produce enough food to feed Americans who used to know what WASTE meant. Nowadays, Mr. & Mrs. America with children (or not) stuff their faces with junk food from places like Burger Crap(King), and Crapaterias like Luby's, Hometown Buffett, and the like. IF, they eat at home, they prepare sumptuous meals straight from a box or bag. NO matter how they eat, TOO much food goes to waste. Americans pile on the food....way too much for what they need - sustenance. Older generations understood about waste,Americans, in general(and from what I've seen), are like pigs with their heads in the trough. I'm not saying I'M the ONLY one in the world who isn't a pig, I've been guilty in the past. Now, though, we support the local farmer's at our Farmer's Market. We eat foods that we harvest ourselves, and I know many other people who do the same. But, sadly, I only know a few families who cook fresh vegetables and serve water or milk, and local meat for their meals.
  Back to the petition! I'm not sure if I know any of the "1400" families affected by the current drought and water battle. I'm guessing I don't. I have met people who used to fish for a living, providing food and money for the region. Water is valuable for everyone, not just one group. There are farms and ranches in the same area that have water because they have wells and water from the Klamath and it's tributaries. Yes, some ARE getting water from the Klamath, the petition didn't mention that did it? In our local paper, front page, are two stories; "Layoffs at Eureka Fisheries", and "Strom-Martin asks Bush for help in resolving Klamath water crisis". Again, before you jump on the bandwagon, get to know as much about an issue as you can or your efforts to help some Americans may hurt others too. Thanks.
WSmac

NOMEX ON......

Fuck those fish.....we have hatcheries these days, we do NOT NEED the rivers/streams for fish. We have put OTHER animals in zoos, which IS cruel, PERIOD...Ever watch a elephant or BIG cat pace back and forth...???

Life on earth has ben born and die for eons, and extinction IS a part of Darwinism..the dinosaurs had to go...and maybe those ugly ass Salmon, and a few other fishies will go too...

I dont WANT them wiped out BUT...IF humans NEED the water, there it is....TO THE BATCAVE ROBIN.....


Back in Ohio we had the 'Indiana Brown Bat'....treehuggers rally cry....HEy..That was Ohio..No wonder his ass was near extinction....

I HAVE NEVER shot ANY animal I did NOT eat...I will ONLY kill for food OR defense..BUT...we have zoos AND hatcheries...we do not NEED nature for animals anymore...we have moved past that...Farmers ned water to feed my fat ass..GIVE THEM WATER..

again...Fuck those fish!!!!!!


[-!-!-]

I do live near there. As a matter of fact we are having a rally this weekend regarding the greenies shutting down recreational gold prospecting just an hour or so from Klamath Falls.

Is it possible the Salmon have gone away from overfishing? or possibley on of the multitudes of chemicals the DSL or other agencies dump into the river to try and kill things they do not like? Hell, not too many years ago they were trying to poison the Sucker fish. Another example: There was some king of algea growing they did not like. So they introduced Lampreys
into the local streams so it would eat the algea. Now the rivers are full of lampreys and they are trying to poison them off now.

Another thing many people do not know is that there is a runoff going into california right before the gates that are currently closed so the farmers cannot get water. The water is being allowed to flow un-impeded into california. Guess what, there is a hydro power plant on that waterway. If the water crisis is that bad, why not close it off also? The answer is simple. The enviro nuts in LA would rather the sucker fish die that them loose power for the hot tubs. Its fine to shut ANYTHING down to them, as long as it does not effect them.

If any of you are near Myrtly Creek Oregon this weekend, stop by the Rally. Ask anyone for an organizer and when you get to them, ask for Coley. [url]www.dredgeearthfirst.com[/url]

Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]
"If you are not outraged, you are not paying attention"

To CavVet and Aviator: SIC UM!!!!
To WSmac: That Dog don't hunt. The Klamath River issue is simply a ploy from the c**ksucking treehugging SOBs to have the Government come in and shut down any use of the rivers resources that doesn't coencide with thier twisted idea of "Fish first,screw humans"
The treehugger's allies,namely the anti-gunners use the same tactics. Except instead of "Doing this for the fish", they "Do it for the children." Don't get me wrong, I love fish, love them so much I fish every other weekend(The other weekends I go shooting)[:D] You probably won't get much sympathy for your cause here. People who live in that area also see this as a property rights issue, you know, "Well Mr.Citizen,we found Kangaroo Rat droppings on your property,so we suspect there is a whole colony of them poor endangered critters living here. Sorry,you can't use your land.Were doing it for the Kangaroo Rat!!!"

Edited because the sierra club determined my computer is the natural habitat of the green footed desert trout.

CavVet; Yep, you're absolutely right. We don't need to kill all the "purty aminals" anymore. We also don't need farms (the old fashioned type with tractors, combines, etc.)anymore either. Whether you want to feed a fat ass or starve a skinny ass, we can all eat hydroponically grown, genetically altered, irradiated foods. YUM, YUM! Soylent Green anyone?

Aviator; I quote from my post - "The rivers here see alot of use and abuse from all directions,...".
 
I agree, it's not just farming. How about: government agencies, logging, development, pollution, overfishing, ranching, unenviromentalists(meaning enviromentalists-who are mostly a bunch of hipocrites anyway), recreational use, and nature. I also agree that (at least from what I've learned the last 5 years living here) California, say south of Humboldt County is diverting the lion's share of water for more of their wasteful lives. I still stand by my belief that there are too many farms and ranches in this country. I'd like to see all the "Water-waste-Slides" shut down too. More Vineyards? Forget it! We could do without theme parks and green lawns too (I seriously hate lawns - big waste of water!) I also have a bit of doubt when it comes to news stories. I'd like to know if it really is 1400 farms and ranches, how big are they and how much do they produce? I'm sure some of them are producing instead of overproducing.

I've left potential career blue collar jobs when they were lost to inside and outside influences. It's not easy, especially the older one gets. My point is, just because someone starts farming/ranching or continues on with a family spread, it doesn't mean they have a guarantee that it will always be there, or that they are more important than other folks because the farmer and rancher lifestyle has become so romanticized. Support the farmers and ranchers who produce good food in the quantities we need.

They are mostly all small family farms.


Aviator

Pheonix5; CALL THEM DOGS OFF!

Hey, don't play the other extreme, the "If you ain't for us your against us" business. I'm up to my neck in dread-locked greenies here. One of the communities is so green and bound up you can't; sit, stand still, "hang-out" on the sidewalk around the downtown plaza - you're blocking the sidewalk. You can't smoke in this same area (I don't smoke btw), yet the clean-air folks drive their cars all over the place looking for a parking spot. These are the same cars that have the "Don't kill the animals" stickers on them, yet the driver wears leather, synthetics, etc., hypocrites!

Yes, it's easy to keep spouting about the Endangered Species Act, I agree,and I will state (again) that there is TOO MUCH Government in our lives.

I was not advocating a "cause" for you to sympathize with, I'm not sure where you came up with that one.

People all over this country, in cities and otherwise have problems with the government and land use issues, it's not just a western thing. (I know you weren't saying that, just thought I'd say it)

My issue with the posting of the petition is that I felt there were people signing on just to be doing the Anti-Goverment thing. It's a free country and I am glad there are people who voice concerns for fellow Americans. The more emotionally charged an issue is, though, the more I like to check things out to make sure of what I'm signing on to. I hope everyone else does too.

Lastly, I LOVE to eat fresh fish too!. My daughter was born and raised her first 2 years entirely on Salmon, Halibut, Black Bear, Caribou and Moose, harvested by family and friends. Not to mention all the wild berries and garden foods. Unfortunately California seems to be a bit harder to fill the larder in, as far as wild foods go.
Thanks for your reply
WSmac

[b]"We have too many farms and ranches in America"[/b] I guess this is why we now import 35% of the fruits and vegetables that we consume.In every year of the Clinton administration. America lost more and more of it's agricultural land to the likes of the  sucker fish and any other nuisance critter the environazi's could find or invent.we now find ourselves' having to import the products that once were grown in abundance in this country.soon we'll be totally dependant on imported food,not exactly how I want my country to be.mmk

If you really want to get to know the people..

[url]http://www.klamathbasincrisis.org[/url]


Aviator

MadMan Kirk;

We import the Cheap stuff. It's cheaper to haul it up here than pay American farmers and ranchers for their goods. The government also buys surplus grains and such not for some National Storage program, but to manipulate the market and support the "too many farmers". Take a look around you. How much food do you see sitting on a plate in some restaurant/fastfood joint ? I've seen lots. At my daughter's school, after lunch, the cafeteria ladies haul off two 35gal. garbage cans of food, EVERY DAY, for 312 kids. Some of it uneaten. This does go to a pig farmer btw. I can't imagine they only do that at school. That's waste, and it adds up. It's just too easy to holler - "It's the environazis".

As far as the land issue, look also to developers. These are people who scream as loud or even louder than anyone I know because it's soooo hard to build their tract homes anymore. Urban sprawl. People who can't imagine living in a house that wasn't built just for them.

I tend to believe that Patriotic Americans follow some common beliefs. Some of these are:

1. Reduce waste - Why do we keep buying our children crappy Taiwanese, Chinese, etc. toys based upon the most current Disney flick? Do they REALLY need that Happy Meal, or Lunchable?
Do we need hundreds, maybe thousands of magazines covering less than that many topics? Is it really important to have a dozen or more magazines about overpaid, spoiled, cry-baby athletes?

2. Make a decent, maybe a real good living in America. Just don't rip off the American people while doing it.  Military Contractors are the big ones here for me. If someone intentionally overcharges or substitutes poor quality parts for our Military forces, they should be tried for TREASON. I'm serious about that one.

3. Allow your neighbor to decide how much personal risk he/she is willing to take, and quit forcing people into the "safe" zone. Helmet laws and seatbelt laws are a couple of examples.

4.Take responsibility for your own decisions and actions. I can't believe we live in a country where PLASTIC BAGS have to have a warning on them about the dangers of suffocation. Is this REALLY going to save a child's life - "GEEZ, HONEY! get that Safeway bag off Junior's head, it says on it that he might suffocate! Wheh, that was close!

I could relate more of my personal "What a Patriotic American Believes" beliefs, after all, I know what's right and what's good for you so be a good docile sheep and follow along! [}:d]

where's my smiley? I'm gonna sue!!!!!!

Aviator, thanks for putting up the link. I just checked out a couple of personal stories. After that and reviewing my posts, I realize how Pheonix5 and whoever else, MAY have thought I was against all the farmers up there. I did try and make it clear that I wasn't against all of them, but I will restate it here. I don't personally know any of the folks who are farming there, and I do not like to see people wind up in such dire straits. I hope any productive farms are taken care of. Any others should hang on or do something else - many Americans have started over before.

[:)]Remove the second charicter,instead of the d put this charicter )  [:D]

WS, It aint no dogs against ya......its YOUR words...


You say you arent against 'them'..BUT there are too many farms.....THAT dog dont hunt...either you ARE or ARE NOT for the PEOPLE...like gun kontrol, you CANT be both....


I cant speak for anybody else..but I am gettin a visual of a WSmac with dreadlocks singin Kumbaya barefott.....hydroponic vegetables indeed...


Hydroponics=electric bills which the kommies have already created a shortage of....

again.......EVERYBODY SAY.....

FTF...[-!-!-] the Fish

WSmac.This subject is one i'm quite sensitive about.as i sit here on my computer,in my upstairs office,i turn to my left and look out the window to see 400 acres of corn growing,out the window to my right is 350 acres of soy beans.to think the government can come and restrict how this land is used because some mutated insect is only found on this land.to say that this is troubling to me would be a under-statement.mmk

Yeah, that's really easy when your not the one at the receiving end of that advice, ain't it, asshole?

Why don't you haul your green ass up to Klamath Falls and offer to buy some of those farms? Or don't you want to suffer what you expect those farmers to? Come on, put your money where your mouth is and save the planet. Hypocrite.

I'm tired of people dispensing advice they wouldn't follow themselves. If you are so worried about the human impact on the planet, why not just kill yourself?

LOL there Boomer don't hold back,tell him how you really feel.[:D] mmk

[b]:::[i]Drool:::[/i][/b]
I hear bald eagle tastes like chicken.

You have not done much reading about this situation, have you?

These families are those of veterans who served our country in war. They were persuaded to settle in the basin, and farm the land, and by contract, have 2nd priority use of the water in the reservior, 1st priority being domestic water supply.

From the petition:


The lake itself, cited as habitat for the sucker fish, would not exist if it were not for the irrigation system. The sucker fish are "allowed to inhabit the lake by virtue of the generosity of the farmers.

But you mentioned salmon being the cause of the shutdown of the water supply. That is another falshood perpetrated by the enviro nazis. The irrigation system does not affect the down river flow out of the lake. The purported cause of the shutdown is that the lake levels ought not be reduced below a certain minimum, solely for the benefit of the sucker fish, which would not have a lake to like in if not for the irrigation system. Oh yeah, I said that already, huh?

BTW, sucker fish are bottom dwellers. The survival of the species is not dependent upon having a certain amout of water over their heads. In fact, many find their way into the shallow irrigation canals, and through the compassion of the farmers, are gathered and returned to the reservoir as the canals dry out after irrigation season ends.

Darn capitalists! Ought to be a law.

Priority for water (and other resources)

1)  Top of the food chain (people).
2)  All others.

Eddie

I don't recall seeing your signature on the petition yet. Hmmm... Oversight? [:)]

WTF
do you think I signed it as garden weasel?

ROFLMAO!!!!

You always make me fall off my chair!  Will you stop that? [:)]

I thought your parents hated you.  LOL

Eddie

[img]http://users.javanet.com/~jim1/images/sucker.gif[/img]

Please sign the petition to save the farms, at:

[url]www.petitiononline.com/klamath/[/url]

WSmac - where exactly are you from?

Me - I live in Medford - just over the hill from K-Falls. As a Southern Oregonian let me give you some perspective.

First, although I have logged units in which the trees were spiked and painted with "Loggers will die" I am of the belief that it is the extremes that make up the middle ground upon which we all walk. Having said that, I am always alert - listening for the person that will admit to being a member of Earth First! - cuz I gonna break both their arms. They need to understand what spiked trees do to people.

Now - this issue. To begin with - what does America's glutney have to do with this? Please don't give me the supply and demand argument either. As I will merely return with modern day farming methods are more efficient and this will go now where. Then I will begin to talk about power consumption in CA and how all waterways in OR have been effected. It is a much more complex issue than "the farmers use all the water". BTW - hydroponics - great for small crops - but lets talk about efficiency and cost to farm 100 acres.

The sucker fish - how many people here know that we tried to erradicate this fish (in Klamath lake) in the 1960's? Guess what, we couldn't - they are mighty resiliant. Guess what the SUCKER FISH EATs - young SALMON and trout. They are a pest. It is akin to protecting a rodent.

Secondly, this is part of larger issue in the area - intervention in OUR community from those outside it. Have you heard about our monument issue - part of Klinton's legacy program. See Oregon is a poor state - esp outside of Portland. Most of the land is government owned -that means no tax revenues to the communties. It also means additional restrictions placed on the lands that we live right next to and inhibit our ability to enjoy. As a group we are financially over burdened, over regulated and under represented. To make matters worse, groups like 1,000 friends of Oregon, the Audabon society, (insert green [as in $$, cuz someone has to run the organization and they become wealthy] entity here). All of these groups are composed of out of the area people - some house wife in LA that drives an SUV 80 miles each day with one person in the car - thinks that WE need to conserve.

WSmac, it is ballsy of you to start this thread and I am glad that you did. Hopefully, people won't deamonize you. Hopefully, they will take from this that it is not as simple as it has been portrayed in the media.

We are talking about a real problem here. The Klamath county economy is in the bottom 20% nationally with the farms up and running. There is a real concern in the area. Some have already left town. Some are going hungry. Businesses are going out. Offers have been made by enviro groups to buy the farm land at pennys on the arce - it is yet another slap in face.

To compound the issue, yesterday and today we have had thundershowers and lightening which have caused many fires in the area. Our fire season is about to really get going and won't let up until late September.

Good luck to all those in K-Falls. From what I can tell all of Jackson county supports you.

I think that most of that water goes to the starbucks in kalifornia so the FDCGHs can get their venti lattes and crap.

F**K the SUCKerfish!
Why should Americans lose their farms over a fish - sucker or snail darter.  
They exist in other places and if you believe it's about a sucker fish and not the ecoNAZI's taking over the country and your life, then you probably also believe that it is better to save a spotted owl by letting the forest burn down rather than letting logging companies harvest trees and maintain the forest haitat.
Fry a sucker fish tonight - do it for the children...  

It's my first time on the internet hotseat,OUCH! Seriously, I have learned a lesson. It's EXTREMELY difficult to accurately convey one's feelings over a computer. I try and be as simple and straight forward as I can in my messages. Please do not "read into" my words. Take a minute & think about my being here,and at my posts on AR15.com. Do you really think I'm not pro-American,Constitution,Bill of Rights?

Face In The Crowd;
I agree, tree spikers are cowards & criminals & far more dangerous than I feel any member of this site to be (without even knowing ya'll). I still believe in my wasteful Americans line. I must apologize though. First, Staying up all night on the computer was foolish. This issue should be responded to with a clear mind. Second, My rant about waste belongs in it's own post, my apologies to the Klamath Farmers. Lastly, I appreciate a person with a level- headed manner. Thanks. Am I "demonized" already?

LS1Eddie;
I have been through drought & lived where water rights have been fought about over statelines. This issue is not new to me, although it is a different time, place & people.

Critter FR;
I read two bio's & about the contract. I have also talked with fishermen who no longer have an industry they can live on. Next time I'm in So.Oregon,I'll try & TALK WITH people who live where this is taking place. Was up in Bandon last Sat.. I try not to make judgements based solely upon a website & some news articles. Not this hot a topic. AND, my ONLY mention of sucker fish was in the fifth sentence of my first post. AND,I NEVER said salmon were THE cause of the shutdown. Please reread my posts carefully.

Boomer;
We don't even know each other.
ASSHOLE? Maybe. HIPPOCRITE? Not that I'm aware of. You see Boomer, if you dared to know anything about the faceless names on this board, you might have a more legitimate position for cussin' at people here. I have been in similar situations TWICE in my lifetime, in Texas and Louisiana. Almost lost everything except what I could carry on my back. Perseverance, and help from family & friends, let me learn from those experiences & move on. Human Impact? We can't live on this earth without impacting it. Fish, Hunt, Farm go ahead!

raf;
Nothing but Democracy & responsibility for me!

Madman Kirk;
Please read my posts again. I'm NOT anti-farmer or anti-Klamath Farmer. I am also not anti-commercial fisherman, which we have had plenty of here apparently. I agree, the government & "save the..." groups go too far in trying to protect each & every living thing on this earth. Extinction happens!

CavVet;
I am not against American Farmers, Fisherman, Loggers. I'm all for making a living off the land. VISUALS? take a pill then reread ALL of my AR15.com posts. Hydroponics was a joke for what I thought was a tongue-in-cheek post by you. Sorry my humor didn't work.

FL Boy;
Reread my posts, very carefully. I have made no argument about sucker fish, we used to catch'm in Texas. Can't beat a good catfish though!

I find most of the posts here are in my interest & I appreciate all those who have passed on advice to me directly over the screen. I have had nothing but honest dealing with members on the equipment exchange forum, thanks. I'm sorry some of you can't seem to get along in a discussion (argument?) without calling people names, I see it too many times here. And I wish I could get those smilies to work again!
Good Evening Gentlemen, and may you fare well!
WSmac

"We have too many farms and ranches in America, and some are too damn big!"

Says who? You? I realize that the farming undustry is not truly a free market situation, but in general, if there is no market for your product, you'll starve to death producing it in a very short period of time. Free country, free market, that's the way this place is supposed to work.


"But what some of them are doing is overproducing, be it for profit or just to sustain the spread by increasing output."

Sustain the spread by increasing output? What in the hell does that mean?

Lenin would like your way of thinking. What's wrong with profit? In any case, you have it all wrong. Go back to Econ 1A and try again. More supply=lower prices, which usually also equals lower profits. "Over producing" as it is generally defined, is even worse than that. It would be making some amount of a product that no one wants, and would simply be a total loss to the farmer. Hardly profitable.


"Farms used to produce enough food to feed Americans who used to know what WASTE meant. Nowadays, Mr. & Mrs. America with children (or not) stuff their faces with junk food from places like Burger Crap(King), and Crapaterias like Luby's, Hometown Buffett, and the like. IF, they eat at home, they prepare sumptuous meals straight from a box or bag. NO matter how they eat, TOO much food goes to waste. Americans pile on the food....way too much for what they need - sustenance."

Who appointed you Emperor? We have the God given right in this country to do as we please as long as we do not harm others. If we want to eat like a Vegan, we have every right to do so. If we want to eat like a slob, ditto. While we could certainly be called wasteful by any number of standards, so what? If we put in an honest days work for our wage, who are you or anyone else to tell us what we should spend it on? If another country cannot feed it's people, then they should change their way of living and governing and build a successful and wealthy country of their own. I am not against charity, nor frugality, but all of that is an individual choice, and it is not up to me to define that for someone else.

You think like a Red Diper Doper Baby, to borrow a phrase. Read some Ayn Rand,  she describes this kind of twisted thinking in great detail, along with the inevitable result of it.

The bottom line of this hassle is that these farmers have an agreement dating back many years, certainly long before any endangered species acts or other eco-nazi regulations. Why is it ok for the government to break a contract? Why are fish more important than people? Why are all of these supposedly highly educated eco-nazis unable to EVER find any other solution to a problem than closing down human access/development/harvesting/you name it?

Answer: because they do not want any other solution, plain and simple.

Just who is this government supposed to be anyway?

I have been saying for several years now that good God fearing, law-abiding people are being pushed into tiny little corners by all of this crap, and sooner or later there is going to be hell to pay.

Ray

A local (Kalispell, MT) radio station routinely exposes the truth about the "Green Nazi's".
The owner, John Stokes, and his morning talk show "The Edge", can be heard on the internet.

Check out www.z600.com , the show is from 8 am - 11 am MST.

Ed

240z;
I'm just going by what I know. From what I've SEEN of SOME farms in the west. My comments, although apparently seen as relating to ALL farms, are not intended that way. Yes, some farmers do lease more land and equipment to increase yield. Some do this to try and make the farm survive. The Econ books can say all they want. Again this is what I've seen happen with my own eyes, and with talking to farmers. It does not apply to ALL farmers in this country. YES, I say all this because it is my OPINION. And I believe I have stated it as such repeatedly. I do not proclaim it to be the law of the land. People seem to be fixating on a few words of mine and missing the true meaning.
Your Rhetorical questions are without merit Sir! Emporer? Again, it's MY OPINION on how Americans in general waste food as well as other material goods. I haven't bandied about any calls for eating laws, READ MY POSTS CAREFULLY.I know that prior generations I have met, whom some people hold up as true, honest Americans, were truly saddened by the attitudes of the '60's, '70's etc, "ME, ME, ME". I agree with their opinions!
These people lived through hard, lean times. I respect their ability to survive. YES, when I see people leave their table at McDung'olds, throwing away food, it upsets me.
Capitalism is fine, we would not be America without it! I do not see greed as a positive American trait, though.

Come to Northern California, on the coast, and talk with the people who lost their fishing industry (yes, I know I keep bringing this up!). They NEED the salmon! So, do you think Red-Blooded American farmers are more important than Red-Blooded American fisherman? I think they are both important, whether it's in my neck of the woods or yours!
Goodnight and may you fare well!
WSmac

WSmac welcome to the hotseat, i've been there myself. No flames from me. As you can tell, passions run hot on this matter.
  In my opinion, our planet has always been ever-changing.species evolve then disappear.this has been happening long before the forefathers of man first crawled on this rock.the climate cycles through periods of extreme cold to that of extreme heat, forests turn to plains which turn to swamps then to deserts.oceans freeze and water levels fall, ice melts raising water levels again.all through this cycle lifeforms flourish ,then perish. Amazingly all this happens without the helping hand of man. To think that we control this planet or it's fate is so egotistical that we must think ourselves gods. Our actions have little effect on our final fate. yes we can speed it up or end it in the blink of an eye. Our own extinction is invenerable,not if but when. Some say save the fish at the expense of yourselves, it might evolve into the next important lifeform after we're gone. To that I say f'ck the fish. We'll all be dead. I don't care what lives next.not our problem.
  What we know of the history of this planet. through the fossil record is that some species may live for millions of years.while others come and go in the blink of a eye.the jury is still out on us.but if we keep sacrificing ourselves for lesser lifeforms,we won't survive for much longer.mmk  y'all ever notice that the later it gets,the more full of crap i get?

Check out [url]www.pushback.com[/url]  

Well I still stand behind my previous comments.
Let's here all about how you were needlessly run out of business TWICE by government environmental regulations protecting supposedly endangered suckerfish or kangaroo mice. I'm genuinely interested to hear how you were victimized twice by your own government.

And assuming for a moment that you did indeed suffer at the hands of our government, why do you have no sympathy for others facing a similar plight other than telling them to accept their devastating loss, get over it, buck up, and move on because it's what the granola heads have said is best? After all, lots of Americans have needlessly lost everything to bogus environmental regulations and had to move on, right?

So let's hear it.