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Posted: 8/25/2004 3:08:34 AM EST
Keyes: Constitution protects machine gun ownership (link)

Declaring "the front line of the war against terror once again involves the citizens," Republican Alan Keyes said Tuesday he believes the U.S. Constitution grants properly trained private individuals the right to own and carry machine guns.

"You're not talking about giving citizens access to atom bombs and other things," the former presidential candidate said. "That's ridiculous."

But the GOP nominee for U.S. Senate argued the founding fathers intended the Second Amendment to allow people to carry the types of weapons "customarily carried in those days by ordinary infantry soldiers."

"And, yes, does that mean that in this day and age people would have the right to have access to the kind of the weapons our ordinary infantry people have access to? With proper training and so forth to make sure that they could handle them successfully, that's exactly what was meant."

Keyes made the remarks at a news conference he called to attack the "ideological extremism" of his Democratic opponent, state Sen. Barack Obama.

The Republican lit into Obama for voting against a bill in Springfield earlier this year that would have allowed people who use handguns to fend off home invaders or attackers to argue self-defense as a possible legal defense against prosecution for violating any local anti-firearm possession ordinances.

<snip>

"I always remind -- even people who support the Second Amendment -- that it has two parts: the right to keep and bear" arms, Keyes said. " 'Bear' means to carry, to carry around. . . . I think it has been proven empirically that . . . allowing law-abiding citizens this access to conceal-carry actually reduces crime

comment : read the whole article Keyes slams Obama several times and challenges his Second Amendment stance.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:13:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:15:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
That kind of crazy talk is why Keyes will likely never see the White House.





See, that's the damn problem right there. The FUCKING TRUTH is considered "crazy talk" by a lot of gun owners.

I'm very disappointed, DF.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:17:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By Cypher214:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
That kind of crazy talk is why Keyes will likely never see the White House.





See, that's the damn problem right there. The FUCKING TRUTH is considered "crazy talk" by a lot of gun owners.

I'm very disappointed, DF.



perhaps DF was being sarcastic?
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:24:39 AM EST
Sarcasm alert Cypher!


Keyes will always be a patriot to me whether he wins office or not.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:25:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 3:26:37 AM EST by CAMPYBOB]
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:28:05 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:31:31 AM EST
Keyes... ummm gooooood man! I "2nd" him!
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:31:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By Cypher214:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
That kind of crazy talk is why Keyes will likely never see the White House.



See, that's the damn problem right there. The FUCKING TRUTH is considered "crazy talk" by a lot of gun owners.

I'm very disappointed, DF.



To probably 95% of the population it would be considered crazy talk. What percentage of the population owns an "assault rifle"? Even less would be interested in owning a machinegun. So to pretty much anyone who has no interest in a machinegun stating that you think everyone should be able to walk around like Rambo is "crazy talk".
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:37:23 AM EST
Sarcasm or not, my response still stands.

Simply because it is true... a lot of gun owners DO consider that crazy talk and I am disappointed.

I just happened to be addressing DF at the time... just on general principle... because he was around and needed to hear my bitching... Yeah, that's it. I knew he was being sarcastic...
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 3:52:16 AM EST
Most Americans don't want nor can they handle the full measure of liberty that is their birthright. and we must suffer for their foolishness
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:00:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:03:02 AM EST
Keyes' "crazy talk" is the kind of thing I could get behind.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:07:13 AM EST
The sad part is that Keyes is 41 points behind Barak Obama in the election.

The sheeple of Illinois are falling for Obama who has a terrible record for voting in the state legislature. Hard on guns, soft on crime.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:21:34 AM EST
Yep, Keyes will never, ever win any election by speaking the truth. Especially in IL.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:24:28 AM EST
Obama has a terrible record period.

As I recall, the people of Switzerland that have served in the army are issued fully automatic weapons by the government to keep in their homes. I think Finland also allows citizens machinegun ownership. However, I don't think any country except Israel allows people to carry them around. Palestine appears to allow it, but I don't think there's any regulation for anyone there. I like Keye’s stance, but it's not going to fly unless a foreign army directly attacks us.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:31:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By SWIRE:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
That kind of crazy talk is why Keyes will likely never see the White House.



See, that's the damn problem right there. The FUCKING TRUTH is considered "crazy talk" by a lot of gun owners.

I'm very disappointed, DF.



To probably 95% of the population it would be considered crazy talk. What percentage of the population owns an "assault rifle"? Even less would be interested in owning a machinegun. So to pretty much anyone who has no interest in a machinegun stating that you think everyone should be able to walk around like Rambo is "crazy talk".



Swire. See, that's the problem. Where is this 95% of the population? You keyboard that statisic as if it's set in stone and is a real number. Does anyone have any idea where that number came from? Was it a legitimate survey with all the checks and balances? Any idea? I don't. I bet it originally started as 20% or so (I'm just picking a number out of the air) and grew as the situation dictated to further an elected officals career.

I bet if I walked the neigborhood and asked an 100 people, 80%, give or take 10% could care less about gun ownership. It doesn't effect them. They're more concerned that the trash gets picked up and the pothole in front of their house is repaired.

On another rant, I'm tired of the term "ASSAULT RIFLE". Sheesh. It's just a rifle. Yet, because we assign it a evil name, it makes it more evil and everybody, inculding many here, buy into it. (I have isssues with Nike too, but that's another subject. )
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:32:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By SWIRE:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
That kind of crazy talk is why Keyes will likely never see the White House.



See, that's the damn problem right there. The FUCKING TRUTH is considered "crazy talk" by a lot of gun owners.

I'm very disappointed, DF.



What percentage of the population owns an "assault rifle"? Even less would be interested in owning a machinegun.



An assualt rifle is a machine gun. I think you were referring to an assault weapon. The two are very different. One is currently banned by a 1934/68/89 ban, the other is banned by a 1994 ban.

But I do agree with you.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:34:27 AM EST
Keyes gets me all misty-eyed like no other politician ever has. Pretty sad that hearing the TRUTH is so rare as to be so special.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 4:49:18 AM EST
Machine guns on one hand, reparations on the other. I don't know what to make of this guy.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:13:12 AM EST
while I like most of Keyes' views that I'm aware of, I don't like him being a hypocrite carpet bagger, plus I'm afraid he'll lose, further hurting his political career
but he is 5000% correct on the intentions of the Founding Fathers
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:23:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By cnorton:
Machine guns on one hand, reparations on the other. I don't know what to make of this guy.



WHat do you mean? Keyes has NEVER supported reparations...
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:27:36 AM EST
You all want to hear raw, unabashed, unreserved truth????

Listen to Alan Keys talk about abortion.

The man is fantastic, but much too honest for the average psyche to deal with.
-LS
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:41:38 AM EST
Our country doesn't deserve a guy like Keyes.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:47:19 AM EST
[homer]Mmmmmmmm. Machine guns. Cheap machine guns.[/homer]

Repeal the NFA!!!!!
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:54:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By cnorton:
Machine guns on one hand, reparations on the other. I don't know what to make of this guy.



Um, Keyes does not supprot reparations. What he proposed is that the Federal government stop taxing all decendents of slaves as a first step towards abolishing the income tax. It really is a brilliant political move.

I would vote for Alan Keyes without ANY reservations, unlike the way I have voted for every other candidate in my life.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 5:58:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
That kind of crazy talk is why Keyes will likely never see the White House.



Hopefully he will see the inside of his own office at the SCOTUS.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:15:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
yeah, i think df was using sarcasm.

many of us own fast guns. none of us want to hurt anyone or commit crimes with them.

keyes is, of course, correct in his interpretation on the constitution. every citizen of the republic that possesses the mental and physical control, should be able to own and carry modern small arms.





You were saying...........?

Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:17:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 6:17:36 AM EST by wise_jake]

Originally Posted By Q3131A:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
That kind of crazy talk is why Keyes will likely never see the White House.



Hopefully he will see the inside of his own office at the SCOTUS.



We could only be so lucky...... unfortunately, I think Torf put it quite eloquently when he said:


Originally Posted By Torf:
Our country doesn't deserve a guy like Keyes.

Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:22:21 AM EST
The raparations/tax talk is just a political move to split the black vote in Chicago. It is actually a good approach, but unfortunately Obama has a much better head start at the election.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:25:56 AM EST
Keyes won't get elected because:

A) Illinois is solidly democratic
B) He's a Republican
C) He's a carpetbagger
D) He bagged on Hillary for carpetbagging

Any questions?
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:21:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
Keyes won't get elected because:

A) Illinois is solidly democratic
B) He's a Republican
C) He's a carpetbagger
D) He bagged on Hillary for carpetbagging

Any questions?



Unfortunately, "nope." While I love the guy's thoughts on plenty, I share the same assessment.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 9:57:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:

Originally Posted By cnorton:
Machine guns on one hand, reparations on the other. I don't know what to make of this guy.



Um, Keyes does not supprot reparations. What he proposed is that the Federal government stop taxing all decendents of slaves as a first step towards abolishing the income tax. It really is a brilliant political move.

I would vote for Alan Keyes without ANY reservations, unlike the way I have voted for every other candidate in my life.



Probably 80%+ don't pay taxes as it is, living on lazyfare....
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 10:08:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By rn45:
Obama has a terrible record period.

As I recall, the people of Switzerland that have served in the army are issued fully automatic weapons by the government to keep in their homes. I think Finland also allows citizens machinegun ownership. However, I don't think any country except Israel allows people to carry them around. Palestine appears to allow it, but I don't think there's any regulation for anyone there. I like Keye’s stance, but it's not going to fly unless a foreign army directly attacks us.



where do you get your misinformation from?

We have more gun rights here(maybe not Cali) then they have in Finland....no semi ARs, AKs, Sakos....nothing
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 10:13:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By hk940:
Most Americans don't want nor can they handle the full measure of liberty that is their birthright. and we must suffer for their foolishness



I haven't read such words of truth in a very long time.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 10:28:15 AM EST
And meanwhile, people want to elect a friggin' Muslim to a senatorial seat. I cannot BELIEVE the stupidity of some people in this country.

What would it take for him to win over Osama, here?
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 10:32:09 AM EST
From stopthenra.com


MACHINE GUNS? IS HE SERIOUS?


ALAN KEYES WANTS TO TAKE ILLINOIS BACK
TO THE "GOOD OLD DAYS" OF THE 1930S
For Immediate Release:
08-25-2004 Contact Communications:
(202) 898-0792

Alan Keyes, the Maryland resident running for the Illinois Senate, said yesterday that machine guns should be legal.

Not semiautomatic assault weapons, mind you -- the guns that were outlawed 10 years ago. Mr. Keyes is for legal machine guns, which came under extraordinary federal regulation in the 1930s after the guns were misused by another guy named Al - Al Capone.

The manufacture of new machine guns was banned under the McClure-Volkmer Act of 1986.

Keyes' comments, published today in the Chicago Sun-Times, were made at a press conference in which he was criticizing "ideological extremism" of his opponent.

"Alan Keyes sees a country where every American should be armed to the hilt with the most deadly firepower imaginable," said Jim Brady, an Illinois native who served as President Ronald Reagan's press secretary. "I cannot fathom how he could come up with such a notion. It's insane."

There are only five days left when Congress is in session before the expiration of the Assault Weapons Ban - a law that President Bush pledged he'd renew as a candidate for President in 2000. If the ban expires, Alan Keyes will be able to fire semiautomatic assault weapons to his heart's content - but there's no current legislation that will give him his machine guns.

Link Posted: 8/25/2004 11:45:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By treelander:

Originally Posted By hk940:
Most Americans don't want nor can they handle the full measure of liberty that is their birthright. and we must suffer for their foolishness



I haven't read such words of truth in a very long time.



+1.

While at once truthful and unfortunate, hk did put it quite eloquently.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:20:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 10:49:52 AM EST by wise_jake]

Originally Posted By Burley:
From stopthenra.com


MACHINE GUNS? IS HE SERIOUS?


ALAN KEYES WANTS TO TAKE ILLINOIS BACK
TO THE "GOOD OLD DAYS" OF THE 1930S
For Immediate Release:
08-25-2004 Contact Communications:
(202) 898-0792

Alan Keyes, the Maryland resident running for the Illinois Senate, said yesterday that machine guns should be legal.

Not semiautomatic assault weapons, mind you -- the guns that were outlawed 10 years ago. Mr. Keyes is for legal machine guns, which came under extraordinary federal regulation in the 1930s after the guns were misused by another guy named Al - Al Capone.

The manufacture of new machine guns was banned under the McClure-Volkmer Act of 1986.

Keyes' comments, published today in the Chicago Sun-Times, were made at a press conference in which he was criticizing "ideological extremism" of his opponent.

"Alan Keyes sees a country where every American should be armed to the hilt with the most deadly firepower imaginable," said Jim Brady, an Illinois native who served as President Ronald Reagan's press secretary. "I cannot fathom how he could come up with such a notion. It's insane."

There are only five days left when Congress is in session before the expiration of the Assault Weapons Ban - a law that President Bush pledged he'd renew as a candidate for President in 2000 [see footnote#1, below]. If the ban expires, Alan Keyes will be able to fire semiautomatic assault weapons to his heart's content - but there's no current legislation that will give him his machine guns.




Never ones for accuracy, are the opponents of your 2nd Amendment. But, what would you expect from an organization that defines itself entirely by its opposition to an organization that would be completely irrelevant if the ACLU actually did its fucking job?*


* IOW, if the ACLU actually did its job, the NRA would be completely/mostly irrelevant.

FN1: Bush pledged he'd sign it if it came across his desk. He never said he'd go out of his way to renew it. Big difference there. I still don't like the pandering, but........
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:36:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
Keyes won't get elected because:

A) Illinois is solidly democratic
B) He's a Republican
C) He's a carpetbagger
D) He bagged on Hillary for carpetbagging

Any questions?



Yup. Just color me stupid. I don't understand statement C. Please explain what you mean by stating "He's a carpetbagger". While I am somewhat familiar with the term from the post-ACW days, I am not famaliar with it in this context or with respect to Mr. Keyes.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:52:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By Burley:
"Alan Keyes sees a country where every American should be armed to the hilt with the most deadly firepower imaginable," said Jim Brady, an Illinois native who served as President Ronald Reagan's press secretary. "I cannot fathom how he could come up with such a notion. It's insane."



I didnt know he still talked, I thought he was a.......



Please tell me this is not him with McGreavy?????






Link Posted: 8/26/2004 10:55:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By CavVet:

Originally Posted By Burley:
"Alan Keyes sees a country where every American should be armed to the hilt with the most deadly firepower imaginable," said Jim Brady, an Illinois native who served as President Ronald Reagan's press secretary. "I cannot fathom how he could come up with such a notion. It's insane."



I didnt know he still talked, I thought he was a.......
www.healingdaily.com/juicing-for-health/vegetable-juicing.gif


Please tell me this is not him with McGreavy?????

www.house.gov/weiner/images/brady1.jpg





Two things funny about this, the 2nd thing I didn't see until I tried to reply:

1) I'm not as worried about not being able to see Mc's right hand as I am about what's going through his mind: "I'm going to stick my whole thumb up Jim here's ass, and there's not much he can do about it."

2) Once I went to reply and say the URL of the Brady picture......... it's in the subdir "weiner"...........
"Weiner," "wiener," same difference. FWIW, that's probably the other thing going through Mc's mind: [glazed_eyes]"Wiener.... mmmmnnnnn."[/glazed_eyes]
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 11:30:57 AM EST
I'm with Keyes on this one, and I won't vote for a Republican (or Democratic for that matter)candidate until at least Reagan's '86 machinegun and Bush's '89 import bans go away. I can't support traitors to The Constitution.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 12:12:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By SOF1:
I'm with Keyes on this one, and I won't vote for a Republican (or Democratic for that matter)candidate until at least Reagan's '86 machinegun and Bush's '89 import bans go away. I can't support traitors to The Constitution.



In another post (a while back), I explained to someone that there were three things I could not stand/stomach in politics. I will repost here (though much less eloquently):

1) Republicans/Conservatives behaving like Democrats/Liberals;

2) Democrats/Liberals behaving like Republicans/Conservatives;

3) Judicial activism.

There were both qualifications and examples given for all three, but this is the long and short of it.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 12:40:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By wise_jake:

Originally Posted By SOF1:
I'm with Keyes on this one, and I won't vote for a Republican (or Democratic for that matter)candidate until at least Reagan's '86 machinegun and Bush's '89 import bans go away. I can't support traitors to The Constitution.



In another post (a while back), I explained to someone that there were three things I could not stand/stomach in politics. I will repost here (though much less eloquently):

1) Republicans/Conservatives behaving like Democrats/Liberals;

2) Democrats/Liberals behaving like Republicans/Conservatives;

3) Judicial activism.

There were both qualifications and examples given for all three, but this is the long and short of it.



Here's further explanation:

<>

1) Judicial Activism (i.e. The "Living" Constitution).

2) Republicans/Conservatives behaving like Democrats/Liberals (i.e. conservatives who claim to want to make government smaller and only increase it's size/scope);

3) Democrats/Liberals behaving like Republicans/Conservatives (i.e. liberals who claim to be "anti-big-business, pro-working-man-or-woman" and, for example, use their pardons on former business partners <cough>Whitewater</cough> and/or the highest bidders).


I rank these sellouts/ideas in the above order *not* because I lean more left than right (and can therefore more easily overlook the crimes committed by the bastard in #3), but because the principles/ideals espoused in #1 and #2 are closer to my heart and I personally consider violation of those precept *more* treasonous.

< />
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 1:02:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By renotse:
With proper training and so forth to make sure that they could handle them successfully, that's exactly what was meant."



Wait just a fucking minute! When I proposed this, I was shit at and hit repeatedly. Board members were lined up around the block to tell me what a fucking dunce I was for proposing that people prove competency with a firearm to own or operate it. Rights were being abrogated. Big brother was going to abuse us. Gun right were pronounced involatile and would not be tainted with such poppy cock as that.

Now Mr. Keyes says the EXACT same thing and he's a great hero for defending the 2nd amendment.

To all the hypocrites out there: You guys must be related to John Kerry. You seem to have inherited his flip-flop gene.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 1:03:03 PM EST
Isn't this guy a Black Dude?? Doesn't he know he is supposed to be Democrat and Anti-gun???
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 6:21:42 PM EST
Here's more from Jim Brady about Alan Keyes' views on machine guns:

www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-sside26.html
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 6:25:30 PM EST
That is Brady with Anthony Weiner (?) I think.

CRC
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 6:27:34 PM EST
Brady said he has never heard anything like Keyes' views in the years

ALAN KEYES ROCKS!

Wow he has really reiled the Bradys.

CRC
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 6:56:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Cypher214:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
That kind of crazy talk is why Keyes will likely never see the White House.





See, that's the damn problem right there. The FUCKING TRUTH is considered "crazy talk" by a lot of gun owners.

I'm very disappointed, DF.





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