Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 10/18/2004 11:05:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/18/2004 11:06:29 AM EST by renotse]
Los Angeles, Oct. 18 (CWNews.com) - A consultant to the Vatican has said Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry has incurred the penalty of excommunication from the Catholic Church.

The consultant made his statement in a highly unusual letter to Marc Balestrieri, a Los Angeles canon lawyer who formally sued John Kerry in ecclesiastical court for heresy.

Balestrieri, who launched his case earlier this year by filing a heresy complaint in Kerry's home archdiocese of Boston, told EWTN's "World Over" program on Friday that he had received an unusual, indirect communication from the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith regarding the pro-abortion stance.

That communication provides a basis, he said, to declare that any Catholic politician who says he is "personally opposed to abortion, but supports a woman's right to choose," incurs automatic excommunication. It also provided a basis for Balestrieri to broaden his canonical actions and file additional complaints against four more pro-abortion Catholic politicians: Democrat Senators Ted Kennedy of Massachusetts and Tom Harkin of Iowa; Republican Senator Susan Collins of Maine; and former New York Governor Mario Cuomo, a Democrat.

The current action could be significant as it could undercut the entire debate over denying Communion to pro-abortion politicians. An excommunicated Catholic may not receive any of the sacraments of the Church, including the Eucharist, marriage, and even Christian burial. The type of excommunication outlined in the new information is called latae sententiae, which means that it occurs automatically and does not require a formal pronouncement by any Church official.

<snip>

Balestrieri said the response was unusual in several respects: that a response was provided to a layman at the request of the undersecretary in only 11 days, that the response was in writing, decisively clarifying the matter, and that it was in far greater detail than a typical official reply. "Normally, only a bishop may request such clarification of doctrine from the CDF, such responses usually take a much longer time to be received, and they are rarely made public," he said.



link
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 11:08:25 AM EST
I so hope this is true.











Link Posted: 10/18/2004 11:13:53 AM EST
so is Mr Kerry going to hell?
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 11:21:34 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 11:23:49 AM EST
hell he is the devil you know
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 11:28:02 AM EST
It is true. This was done to him some time ago.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 11:28:20 AM EST
The union Catholics will still vote for him...
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 12:16:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By hk940:
so is Mr Kerry going to hell?



Don't quote me on this but I think bad Catholics go to purgatory.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 12:19:42 PM EST
Bad Catholics can go to hell too.

I hope they enforce this.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 12:40:10 PM EST
Any wagers on how long it will before SGTAR15 is going to post on this thread and how many posts he will make??

wganz

Link Posted: 10/18/2004 12:49:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By wganz:
Any wagers on how long it will before SGTAR15 is going to post on this thread and how many posts he will make??

wganz




No shi'ite! Paging SGTAR15!
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 12:49:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By renotse:
Los Angeles, Oct. 18 (CWNews.com) - A consultant to the Vatican has said Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry has incurred the penalty of excommunication from the Catholic Church.

The consultant made his statement in a highly unusual letter to Marc Balestrieri, a Los Angeles canon lawyer who formally sued John Kerry in ecclesiastical court for heresy.

Balestrieri, who launched his case earlier this year by filing a heresy complaint in Kerry's home archdiocese of Boston, told EWTN's "World Over" program on Friday that he had received an unusual, indirect communication from the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith regarding the pro-abortion stance.

That communication provides a basis, he said, to declare that any Catholic politician who says he is "personally opposed to abortion, but supports a woman's right to choose," incurs automatic excommunication. It also provided a basis for Balestrieri to broaden his canonical actions and file additional complaints against four more pro-abortion Catholic politicians: Democrat Senators Ted Kennedy of Massachusetts and Tom Harkin of Iowa; Republican Senator Susan Collins of Maine; and former New York Governor Mario Cuomo, a Democrat.

The current action could be significant as it could undercut the entire debate over denying Communion to pro-abortion politicians. An excommunicated Catholic may not receive any of the sacraments of the Church, including the Eucharist, marriage, and even Christian burial. The type of excommunication outlined in the new information is called latae sententiae, which means that it occurs automatically and does not require a formal pronouncement by any Church official.

<snip>

Balestrieri said the response was unusual in several respects: that a response was provided to a layman at the request of the undersecretary in only 11 days, that the response was in writing, decisively clarifying the matter, and that it was in far greater detail than a typical official reply. "Normally, only a bishop may request such clarification of doctrine from the CDF, such responses usually take a much longer time to be received, and they are rarely made public," he said.



link




There's so much double-speak in that story that I have no idea what it means.

It SOUNDS like someone vaguly associated with the Vatican may have said something along the lines of that people who support abortion could technically be excommunicated, if Vatican officials wanted to.

I highly doubt that any Vatical official has actually excommunicated Kerry for expressing support for abortion.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 12:56:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By 1Walker:
It is true. This was done to him some time ago.



If this was done some time ago Its obviouse that our impartial media is not going to cover it, This is the first I have heard about him being Excommunicated (surely this is too good to be true) I had read though that he was refused communion and there was some Media coverage of that but it quikly died out.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 12:57:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:
The union Catholics will still vote for him...



Not this one. There are so many reasons why he's a prick...
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:26:30 PM EST
OMG.......

Is this for real?
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:43:46 PM EST
Nice. The Pope shoves his staff up JFK's ass personally.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:44:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/18/2004 6:45:28 PM EST by TacticalMan]

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

There's so much double-speak in that story that I have no idea what it means.

It SOUNDS like someone vaguly associated with the Vatican may have said something along the lines of that people who support abortion could technically be excommunicated, if Vatican officials wanted to.

I highly doubt that any Vatical official has actually excommunicated Kerry for expressing support for abortion.



I agree.

The Church equivalent of "police action" instead of war. Give everybody plenty of wiggle room to weasel out of any situation that would normally require a stand or real action.

Frankly, the Church is going to have to take a strong stance or else it risks irrelevance.

Judging by the actions taken over the last 40yrs, I think the bureaucrats will choose irrelevance.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:47:45 PM EST
I have been trying to keep up on this myself.

I know the Bishop of the Boston Diocease publicaally stated the John Kerry was "Not in good standing with the Church" due to his stance on abortion. I know that Bishop reccomended that Kerry be excummunicated because of this, but usually it takes more time.


This should be BIG news. I hope it gets out. The Catholic Herald news paper comes out monthly. I hope they carry this story.


SGtar15
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:48:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/18/2004 6:48:40 PM EST by garr]
Kerry is a Communist, They tried to kill the Pope once, His Emmenance better watch his ass with a war criminal like Kerry after him!!
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 6:53:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By Gungho_1989:

Originally Posted By 1Walker:
It is true. This was done to him some time ago.



If this was done some time ago Its obvious that our impartial media is not going to cover it, .




Like I stated, it was started some time ago, but it appears it is just going to the next level now.


this is actually easily enforced on a church by church level. Every priest knows what Kerry looks like. SO they have a DUTY to no allow him ANY of the Holy Sacraments.


I doubt it is finalized by the Vatican at this time.

Sgtar15



PS And I will post as many replies as needed
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 7:47:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
If this is true its going to be messy...



Yup. Sure is.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 7:48:59 PM EST
Could make sKerry a hero with American Catholics.


Most American Catholics break with the Vatican on many key issues anyway.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 7:59:23 PM EST
apparrently kerry's campaign has been trying to avoid this for a while, just searching for "john kerry refused communion" brings up

an explaination about how kerry can be refuseed communion for willfully expousing sin, but not be formally excommunicated -
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/150/story_15005_1.html

a uk story on how long this has been going on - telegraph in uk

and how kerry got away with receiving communion by attending mass at a church that caters to gays and lesbians in april of this year
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/apr/04042603.html

just another way he is trying to play for religious votes...
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 8:30:17 PM EST
I believe the bottom line on this is that his public position on abortion and refusal to repent and publicly change position in line with doctrine constitutes heresy and thus Kerry has automatically excommunicated himself. No formal ritual needed, but the Church cannot alow him to engage in the sacraments.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 8:33:43 PM EST
no juice and crackers for john?

what a shame.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 8:35:14 PM EST
I believe the bottom line on this is that his public position on abortion and refusal to repent and publicly change position in line with doctrine constitutes heresy and thus Kerry has automatically excommunicated himself. No formal ritual needed, but the Church cannot alow him to engage in the sacraments. This should also apply to Ted Kennedy and the other phony trash. The Church needs to stand up to this.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 2:59:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/19/2004 3:02:37 AM EST by renotse]

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

This should be BIG news. I hope it gets out. The Catholic Herald news paper comes out monthly. I hope they carry this story.


SGtar15



MOVE TO EXCOMMUNICATE KERRY AND OTHERS ADVANCES...

Drudge has picked up the story with a red headline, but his link is down. If nothing else it gives people something to think about when kerry goes on one of his "I was an alter boy" rants like in the last debate. It just shows how much of shyster he is.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 4:38:04 AM EST
The last straw may have been his shameful support of embryonic stem cell research. This involves not just killing human embryos but also theraputic cloning of humans. Kerry and Edwards were nuts in their promises to make "Christopher Reeve walk again".

GunLvr
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 8:21:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/19/2004 8:21:45 AM EST by longshot_va]
SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry, a new question for you.

The New York Times reports that some Catholic archbishops are telling their church members that it would be a sin to vote for a candidate like you because you support a woman's right to choose an abortion and unlimited stem-cell research.

What is your reaction to that?


KERRY: I respect their views. I completely respect their views. I am a Catholic. And I grew up learning how to respect those views. But I disagree with them, as do many.



If that is not enough to get the boot, well... may as well just have open homosexuality, bestiality, pedophilia, and abortions on demand in the pews.

-LS
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 8:23:40 AM EST
excellent!
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 8:32:17 AM EST

KERRY: I respect their views. I completely respect their views. I am a Catholic. And I grew up learning how to respect those views. But I disagree with them, as do many.

I believe that I can't legislate or transfer to another American citizen my article of faith. What is an article of faith for me is not something that I can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of faith.

I believe that choice is a woman's choice. It's between a woman, God and her doctor. And that's why I support that.

Now, I will not allow somebody to come in and change Roe v. Wade.

The president has never said whether or not he would do that. But we know from the people he's tried to appoint to the court he wants to.

I will not. I will defend the right of Roe v. Wade.

Now, with respect to religion, you know, as I said, I grew up a Catholic. I was an altar boy. I know that throughout my life this has made a difference to me.

And as President Kennedy said when he ran for president, he said, "I'm not running to be a Catholic president. I'm running to be a president who happens to be Catholic."

My faith affects everything that I do, in truth. There's a great passage of the Bible that says, "What does it mean, my brother, to say you have faith if there are no deeds? Faith without works is dead."

And I think that everything you do in public life has to be guided by your faith, affected by your faith, but without transferring it in any official way to other people.

That's why I fight against poverty. That's why I fight to clean up the environment and protect this earth.

That's why I fight for equality and justice. All of those things come out of that fundamental teaching and belief of faith.

But I know this, that President Kennedy in his inaugural address told all of us that here on Earth, God's work must truly be our own. And that's what we have to -- I think that's the test of public service.




Can someone explaing WTF he is saying here?

-LS
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 8:51:07 AM EST
From Drudge...

DOCTRINE-BALESTRIERI Oct-19-2004 (730 words) xxxi

Vatican denies it responded to lawyer seeking Kerry's excommunication

By Cindy Wooden
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- An official at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith said a California canon lawyer seeking a formal decree of heresy against Sen. John F. Kerry of Massachusetts, Democratic presidential nominee, has misrepresented his contact with the Vatican office.

"The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has had no contact with Mr. (Marc) Balestrieri," said Dominican Father Augustine DiNoia, undersecretary of the congregation.

"His claim that the private letter he received from (Dominican) Father Basil Cole is a Vatican response is completely without merit," Father DiNoia told Catholic News Service Oct. 19, declining to discuss the matter further.

Balestrieri is the head of De Fide, described on its Web site as an organization created "to deal with the burgeoning scandal of Catholic politicians supporting the 'right to choose' murder."

In an Oct. 15 interview on the Eternal Word Television Network and in an Oct. 18 statement posted on his Web site, Balestrieri said he had "received a written response prompted by the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith affirming that Catholic politicians who persist in supporting the right to abortion are 'automatically excommunicated.'"

He said Father Cole "was delegated" by Father DiNoia "to formally respond" to questions Balestrieri had sent the congregation.

Father DiNoia denied that Father Cole, a theologian who resides in Washington, was delegated in any way to address the questions on behalf of the congregation.

Father Cole's letter to Balestrieri, also posted on De Fide's Web site, begins by saying he had been asked by Father DiNoia "to respond unofficially" to Balestrieri's questions.

The priest concluded that "if a Catholic publicly and obstinately supports the civil right to abortion, knowing that the church teaches officially against that legislation, he or she commits that heresy envisioned by Canon 751 of the Code" of Canon Law.

Vatican officials contacted by CNS Oct. 19 said they did not agree with Father Cole's conclusion that Kerry has incurred excommunication.

"You can incur excommunication 'latae sententiae' (automatically) only if you procure or perform an abortion," one said.

In Washington, Father Cole told CNS the Holy See "gets these requests ... tons of them," and that Father DiNoia asked him to respond to Balestrieri in a private capacity.

"I have no relationship to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith ... and the letter that I wrote to Balestrieri was purely private," he told CNS Oct. 19. "I wrote it as a private theologian, not with any authority. It has no authority whatsoever.

"Its worth is disputable," he added.

One Vatican official contacted by CNS said no church official had seriously approached the point of declaring Kerry a heretic.

"No, Kerry is not a heretic," he said.

"There are three distinct questions involved" in the current U.S. discussion about support for legalized abortion and the worthiness of Catholic politicians and voters to receive Communion, he said.

The three questions, he said, are: "Is Kerry a heretic? Is Kerry an 'obstinate sinner' because of his support for legalized abortion? Can a Catholic vote for Kerry?"

Even if one answered "yes" to the second question, he said, it would not mean the senator is a heretic, nor would it oblige Catholic voters in all situations to vote against him.

The questions Balestrieri wrote in Latin and sent to the congregation asked whether the church's condemnation of abortion is a matter of Catholic faith and dogma for which opposition would constitute heresy.

When he wrote to the congregation, Balestrieri did not identify himself as the head of De Fide, he did not mention Kerry or politicians in general and he said he did not inform the congregation that he was trying to formally sue Kerry for heresy in the Archdiocese of Boston.

The doctrinal congregation, like other Vatican offices, receives dozens of letters and questions each day. Those from bishops are handled formally.

The tone of letters from lay people dictates how they are handled, a Vatican official said Oct. 19. Most letter writers are encouraged to discuss their concerns with their parish priest.

When a letter appears to be from a serious student, the writer may be referred to a book or published article, or he or she may be referred to a theologian or canon lawyer who could be able to provide direction.

- - -

Contributing to this story was Barb Fraze in Washington.

END
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 8:55:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/19/2004 8:57:37 AM EST by BayEagle]

Originally Posted By longshot_va:



My faith affects everything that I do, in truth. There's a great passage of the Bible that says, "What does it mean, my brother, to say you have faith if there are no deeds? Faith without works is dead."

And I think that everything you do in public life has to be guided by your faith, affected by your faith, but without transferring it in any official way to other people.

That's why I fight against poverty. That's why I fight to clean up the environment and protect this earth.





Can someone explaing WTF he is saying here?

-LS




He's (Kerry) wrong as usual. As I've stated in the past, there are 5 NON-NEGOTIABLE issues for American Catholics:

Abortion

Embyonic Stem Cell Research

Euthanasia

Same Sex Marriage

Human Cloning


If he meant what he was saying, he would be fighting AGAINST all 5 of these issues.


The issues HE chooses to fight are not core moral voting issues for Catholics.


Link Posted: 10/19/2004 9:47:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By BayEagle:

He's (Kerry) wrong as usual. As I've stated in the past, there are 5 NON-NEGOTIABLE issues for American Catholics:

Abortion
Embyonic Stem Cell Research
Euthanasia
Same Sex Marriage
Human Cloning

If he meant what he was saying, he would be fighting AGAINST all 5 of these issues.
The issues HE chooses to fight are not core moral voting issues for Catholics.




BE,

Not trying to Catholic bash, (being x-Catholic myself) but I will not forgive Catholics for the hypocrisy of electing the likes of Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Barney Franks.

From : http://www.trosch.org/chu/cathabor.htm

1) The four most Catholic states — Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New Jersey, and Connecticut all with Catholic populations exceeding 40%, have eight pro-abortion senators, including four Catholics.
2) Ten of the 36 U.S. senators opposed to the ban on partial-birth infanticide are Catholic. They are Susan Collins (Maine), Christopher Dodd (Connecticut), Richard Durbin (Illinois), Tom Harkin (Iowa), Edward Kennedy (Massachusetts), John Kerry (Massachusetts), Barbara Mikuiski (Maryland), Carol Moseley-Braun (Illinois), Patty Murray (Washington), and Jack Reed (Rhode Island).
3) There is a strong negative correlation between the election of pro-life legislators and the percentage of Catholics in the population. For example, the five most pro-life slates (Utah, Oklahoma, Idaho, Wyoming, and Kansas) have only an 8.2% average Catholic percentage, while the five most pro-abortion states (Hawaii, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, and Rhode Island) have a whopping 44.3% average Catholic percentage.

Etc…

Simple fact that if these politicians did not obtain the Catholic vote, they would not be in office.

-LS
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 10:05:53 AM EST
Yes and some of us even have indulgences that we've earned over the years. We can buy our purgatory time down.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 10:21:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By longshot_va:

Not trying to Catholic bash.....




Sure you are. It's the last acceptable prejudice in america. It is rampant on this board.

Even among the professed Catholics and ex-Catholics on the board, the level of ignorance regarding what the Church professes and believes is astounding.

No offense, but if sgtar15 is considered THE resident Catholic on this board, the faith is NOT well represented. IMO, BayEagle (sorry, friend) is the man to go to with questions on Catholicism.

I only think a small part of the vatican hierarchy misrepresents the Catholic view. The real culprits that have driven Catholicism to the left is the american catholic bishops, IMO.

Link Posted: 10/19/2004 12:12:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By longshot_va:

Not trying to Catholic bash, (being x-Catholic myself) but I will not forgive Catholics for the hypocrisy of electing the likes of Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Barney Franks.

-LS




The Pope and the Vatican are the ONLY ofical representatives of the Catholic Church.


So, unless Pope John Paul II voted for any of those people................



SGatr15
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 12:14:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By TWIRE:


No offense, but if sgtar15 is considered THE resident Catholic on this board, the faith is NOT well represented. IMO, BayEagle (sorry, friend) is the man to go to with questions on Catholicism.




No offense taken on my part. I agree. BayEagle is farther down the road then I am, as are many people.

Sgtar15
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 2:38:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
The Pope and the Vatican are the ONLY ofical representatives of the Catholic Church.


So, unless Pope John Paul II voted for any of those people...............




Umm, so everyone else gets to do as they wish with no accountability or responsibility for their actions or how they are perceived by those outside the CC?

Cool!

Maybe I'll come back. Seems allot easier than towing the line.


And btw, I do consider John Kerry a representative of the Catholic Church. Official or not.

-LS
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 3:19:32 PM EST
LINK

Here's another Catholic news source of the same article. Could be REAL!
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 3:43:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By longshot_va:

And btw, I do consider John Kerry a representative of the Catholic Church. Official or not.

-LS



You're off by a longshot, va. I understand your point, though. Particularly since sKerry lays the BS on about being "guided by faith" as a "life long Catholic" just before launching into his pro choice rhetoric. It's hard to ignore, but he is CLEARLY pandering.



Link Posted: 10/19/2004 4:10:10 PM EST
CRAP, look what I found

LINK

Kerry "excommunication" scam exposed


An official at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has claimed that a Californian canon lawyer seeking a formal decree of heresy against Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry of Massachusetts has misrepresented his contact with the Vatican office.

The canon lawyer has claimed publicly that he received a communication from the Congregation implying that Kerry is excommunicated because any Catholic politician who says he is "personally opposed to abortion, but supports a woman's right to choose," incurs automatic excommunication. If credible, the claim could cause significant damage to Kerry's chances in an election that some pollsters say hinges on the Catholic vote.

"The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has had no contact with Mr (Marc) Balestrieri," said Congregation undersecretary Fr Augustine DiNoia.

Fr DiNoia told Catholic News Service: "His claim that the private letter he received from (Dominican) Fr Basil Cole is a Vatican response is completely without merit".

Balestrieri is the head of De Fide, described on its Web site as an organisation created "to deal with the burgeoning scandal of Catholic politicians supporting the 'right to choose' murder."

In an interview on the Eternal Word Television Network last week, and in a statement posted on his Web site, Balestrieri said he had "received a written response prompted by the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith affirming that Catholic politicians who persist in supporting the right to abortion are 'automatically excommunicated.'"

He said Fr Cole "was delegated" by Fr DiNoia "to formally respond" to questions Balestrieri had sent the congregation. Fr DiNoia denied that Fr Cole, a theologian who resides in Washington, was delegated in any way to address the questions on behalf of the congregation.

Fr Cole's letter to Balestrieri, also posted on De Fide's Web site, begins by saying he had been asked by Fr DiNoia "to respond unofficially" to Balestrieri's questions.

The priest concluded that "if a Catholic publicly and obstinately supports the civil right to abortion, knowing that the church teaches officially against that legislation, he or she commits that heresy envisioned by Canon 751 of the Code" of Canon Law.

Vatican officials contacted by Catholic News Service yesterday said they did not agree with Fr Cole's conclusion that Kerry has incurred excommunication.

"You can incur excommunication 'latae sententiae' (automatically) only if you procure or perform an abortion," one said.

In Washington, Fr Cole told Catholic News Service that the Holy See "gets these requests ... tons of them," and that Fr DiNoia asked him to respond to Balestrieri in a private capacity.

"I have no relationship to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith ... and the letter that I wrote to Balestrieri was purely private," he told CNS Oct. 19. "I wrote it as a private theologian, not with any authority. It has no authority whatsoever.

SOURCE
Vatican denies it responded to lawyer seeking Kerry's excommunication (Catholic News Service 19/10/04)
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 4:21:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By longshot_va:

BE,

Not trying to Catholic bash, (being x-Catholic myself) but I will not forgive Catholics for the hypocrisy of electing the likes of Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Barney Franks.



Nor will a lot of Catholics.




From : http://www.trosch.org/chu/cathabor.htm

1) The four most Catholic states — Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New Jersey, and Connecticut all with Catholic populations exceeding 40%, have eight pro-abortion senators, including four Catholics.
2) Ten of the 36 U.S. senators opposed to the ban on partial-birth infanticide are Catholic. They are Susan Collins (Maine), Christopher Dodd (Connecticut), Richard Durbin (Illinois), Tom Harkin (Iowa), Edward Kennedy (Massachusetts), John Kerry (Massachusetts), Barbara Mikuiski (Maryland), Carol Moseley-Braun (Illinois), Patty Murray (Washington), and Jack Reed (Rhode Island).
3) There is a strong negative correlation between the election of pro-life legislators and the percentage of Catholics in the population. For example, the five most pro-life slates (Utah, Oklahoma, Idaho, Wyoming, and Kansas) have only an 8.2% average Catholic percentage, while the five most pro-abortion states (Hawaii, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, and Rhode Island) have a whopping 44.3% average Catholic percentage.




I don't even know where to start except to say I believe that it springs from that whole mess called "Catholic Social Teaching". A teaching that lacks force of ex cathedra and that also goes against many traditional doctrinal teachings.

All I can say is that Satan appears not as a fearsome ugly ogre, but as a smooth, handsome deceiver.

Kerry embodies the typical hypocritical attitude resultant from this teaching.


You wouldn't believe the number of Catholics who have absolutely no sense of proportion, especially when you consider that Catholicism is one of the few religions that recognizes that not all sins are of the same severity.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 5:42:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By TWIRE:
You're off by a longshot, va. I understand your point, though. Particularly since sKerry lays the BS on about being "guided by faith" as a "life long Catholic" just before launching into his pro choice rhetoric. It's hard to ignore, but he is CLEARLY pandering.



And you miss the wire, twire.

Pandering is catering to the lower tastes and desires of others or exploit their weaknesses. Essentially saying what they want to hear. HOWEVER, sKerry is in rare form here as he is accurately and honestly verbalizing his own position and beliefs. His words are reaffirmed by his actions over the last 20 years in the Senate.

That is a 20 year Senate record that would not be had the CATHOLICS in Massachusetts voted for representation of the values that the Catholic Church, as rumor has it, professes.

The sad truth is, the Catholic Church is following a strategy of appeasement that makes France look like Mt-T in Rocky(#?). They have ample cause and evidence that these politicians should be excommunicated, and they do nothing. NOTHING!

Add to that, I believe that in THIS country, the majority of CATHOLICS believe it is OK to have an abortion, that homosexual behavior is normal and acceptable, and that a separation of Church and state means that their representatives don’t have to account for their voting record.

So be it. They will believe as they will.

My beef is with the Church doing nothing.

And this thread is yet more evidence as it is becoming clear that sKerry is not excommunicated as he should be.

-LS
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 5:43:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By longshot_va:

And btw, I do consider John Kerry a representative of the Catholic Church. Official or not.

-LS




You're kidding right?


Do you consider John Hinkley a representative of the gun community??


Sgatr15
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 5:52:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By ClayP:
Nice. The Pope shoves his staff up JFK's ass personally.



Yeah, but did he take pics and post them here?
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 5:56:27 PM EST
Let me summarize what I’m saying.


Practice what you preach!

If the Catholic Church practiced what it preached, sKerry would not be a Catholic.

If the Catholics people in Massachusetts practiced what they preached, sKerry would not be a Senator and sure as the sun will rise in the east this would NOT be a close political election.

It’s fucking pathetic.

-LS
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 6:00:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/19/2004 6:17:03 PM EST by longshot_va]

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By longshot_va:

And btw, I do consider John Kerry a representative of the Catholic Church. Official or not.




You're kidding right?
Do you consider John Hinkley a representative of the gun community??



Is John Hinckley an elected official who holds a public office due in large part to NRA members?


Kerry is not a Senator in spite of the Catholics in Massachusetts, but thanks to.... and more evidence supports the notion that those Catholics in this country who agree with his positions are the MAJORITY of the body and not a minority.

-LS
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 3:51:35 PM EST
From the Chicago Tribune today's edition:


Vatican official: Kerry is no 'heretic'

By New York Times News Service, Los Angeles Times, and the Associated Press
Published October 20, 2004

The Roman Catholic Church's official news service quoted an unnamed Vatican official on Tuesday saying that Sen. John Kerry is "not a heretic" for his stance on abortion rights.

The article by the Catholic News Service also quoted an unnamed Vatican official saying that Kerry was not about to be excommunicated because "you can incur excommunication" automatically "only if you procure or perform an abortion."

The article came after a canon lawyer, Marc Balestrieri, who heads a conservative Catholic group called De Fide, publicized a letter calling for Kerry's excommunication.

The letter, written at the request of the Very Rev. Augustine Di Noia, a Vatican official, said that "if a Catholic publicly and obstinately supports the civil right to abortion, knowing that the church teaches officially against that legislation, he or she commits that heresy" and is "automatically excommunicated."

--New York Times News Service


Top Top