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Posted: 5/9/2003 3:43:08 PM EDT
Okay, Ronin: Great movie, great car chases. De Niro's awsome, of course (what gun does he use?...j/k). And he likes the 1911(even though it's a canned answer to the commando jerk)!

But what is this teflon-coated bullet BS? (He pulls out a bullet, remarks that it's teflon-coated and that's how it penetrated the vest)

I remember seeing it on the "cop-killer" bullet propaganda from HCI and their ilk, and we all know that they're an authority on fireamrs.[rolleyes]

Erm... at 1000 fps, I can't see how a "slippery" bullet will deform any less(and thus penetrate better) than a plain copper-jacketed one. Am I wrong?

And where did this originate? Had to be Hollywood. The teflon bullet predates Ronin so that couldn't have been this first movie to dispense this BS.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 3:50:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 3:51:01 PM EDT
Teflon doesn't help bullets penatrate any better than a normal bullet. Teflon was used on bullets that had hard jackets designed to pierce armor. The bullet was then coated in teflon to keep the harder metal from damaging the gun's barrel.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 3:55:19 PM EDT
Deniro may be a good actor but I remember seeing a picture of him standing behind Al Gore during the presidential campaign.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 4:00:49 PM EDT
Isn't the black layer on Black Talon bullets teflon?  IIRC, they were coated to help with reliable feeding rather to defeat body armor.  BTW, do the Ranger bullets have the same coating?
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 4:03:54 PM EDT
This is Terrorism related language, and I'll not condone it!!
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 4:05:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 4:08:52 PM EDT
This is Terrorism related language, and I'll not condone it!!
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Great 1-liner!!

Link Posted: 5/9/2003 4:15:20 PM EDT
The "cop killer" bullets I once came across had a steel core center covered by lead then covered by teflon. They were for .357 caliber. I don't have much doubt that those rounds would penetrate a vest.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 4:17:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 4:25:27 PM EDT

"When the nation's police asked congress to ban the manufacture and sale of "cop killer" bullets -- ammunition that penetrates the vests worn by police -- the NRA lobbied furiously to defend the sale of this ammunition.[33] (Handgun Control Incorporated)

"The NRA's army of slick lobbyists even fought our efforts to ban  cop-killer bullets specifically designed to pierce bullet-proof vests!" (COALITION TO STOP GUN VIOLENCE)[39]


The NRA helped write the law restricting the sale of armor piercing handgun ammunition to the police and armed services only. The NRA pointed how an earlier version of the law was so badly written that it would have banned most ammunition, including regular normal ammunition used for hunting and target shooting. The company that was making "armor piercing" handgun ammunition was owned and run by senior police officers, and only sold the ammunition in tiny quantities to some police departments and the military anyway. The ammunition was specifically designed to provide improved penetration against autobody panels and auto glass, and its design actually reduced the chance that it would pierce bullet-resistant vests.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 4:27:55 PM EDT
Spraying teflon on a bullet does NOT make it armor piercing.

Sticky teflon on the nose of the bullet may make it less likely to ricochet off a hard surface.

Slippery teflon on the bullet may help prevent damage to the bore of the barrel, but thats it.
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 4:35:25 PM EDT
I read the following from the guy who developed teflon coated bullets:

He thought the cops should have rounds that could pierce through car doors easily and drive straight through windshields without glancing off the slope.

So he developed a projectile milled from a solid block of brass.  The teflon was for the windshields, not because of its slickness but because it helps the bullet "grab" the window, and not glance off if it hits obliquely. Maybe it helped protect the barrel, too.

Anyway, the media got a hold of the story and did one of their patented hysterias we've seen so many times (Glock-plastic pistols for terrorists, Black Talon bullets designed to harm surgeons who try to remove it, etc.) except their spin was that these were super cop-killer bullets whose teflon coating rendered body armor useless. I think Congress banned all armor-piercing bullets for pistols around then.

But the problem was, these were specialty rounds that were never going to go into the mass civilian market, they were made for the police. And not to penetrate body armor (although they certainly could) but to reliably punch through car doors and windshields. The final kicker is that the teflon coated bullets were actually LESS effective against kevlar vests than uncoated, solid brass bullets. Again, the role of the teflon was to help the bullet grip a windshield, not penetrate kevlar.

All of this comes as no surprise considering the media's love of feeding the public scare stories.  CBS just had one last night on the sinister threat potato cannons pose to America's children [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 4:46:10 PM EDT
All of this comes as no surprise considering the media's love of feeding the public scare stories. CBS just had one one the sinister threat of potato cannons last night
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I watched that also. Did the blind guy say he was shot in the face with a frog and had it been a tater it would have killed him? What a dork...!

Link Posted: 5/9/2003 4:49:12 PM EDT
More info...


In January of 1982, NBC Television broadcast a sensationalist prime time special titled "Cop Killer Bullets." Law enforcement officials had asked NBC not to air the program as the use of body armor by police officers was still not common knowledge and the "KTW" ammunition was virtually unheard of outside law enforcement circles. The safety of law enforcement officers took a back seat to ratings at NBC however and they not only broadcast the show, but re-broadcast it again six months later.
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Link Posted: 5/9/2003 4:55:31 PM EDT
Do you guys remember the Lethal Weapon movies?  In one of them the bad guys had these Kop Killers and was shooting through the blade of a bull dozer.  I want some of those rounds!  Thats called penetration.  
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 6:51:51 PM EDT
The KTW stuff was actually made for LE, because the loads of the era weren't doing a very good job penetrating vehicle bodies and glass.

I don't think anyone has even made any since the early 1980s, and it was pretty much restricted to LE by the manufacturers, even before the AP ammo bans. I have never seen it, or any other Armor Piercing" round sold by any LE distributor, with the exception of Winchester M855 Ball (which isn't technically AP ammo), and barricade penetrating gas rounds, which wouldn't do crap to hard or soft armor (designed to use plastic and hard rubber to cut through wallboard and plywood).
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 7:58:54 PM EDT
I worked with an asshole who wanted to talk guns one day.  I listened to his drivel for a few minutes and he finally stated that he even had a box of "them cop killer bullets" at home.

He then said, "they are teflon coated".

In front of the whole dept I said, "Congrats, you can cook on them and nothing will stick."
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 9:31:08 PM EDT
The only modern handgun/bullet (that I know of) that penetrates modern body armor is the FN Five-Seven pistol that shoots the 5.7x28mm cartridge.

edit: 5.7x28mm SS190 cartridge
Link Posted: 5/9/2003 10:24:22 PM EDT
The only modern handgun/bullet (that I know of) that penetrates modern body armor is the FN Five-Seven pistol that shoots the 5.7x28mm cartridge.

edit: 5.7x28mm SS190 cartridge
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Oh there are plenty of pistol rounds that'll defeat body armor.  Plain ol' 7.62x25mm will, especially the hot SMG loads or the saboted rounds.

The Russians have a 5.45mm pistol cartridge that isn't high velocity (something like 950-1000 fps) that'll cut through kevlar. [url]http://www.milparade.com/1996/18/46-47.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 5/10/2003 6:38:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/10/2003 6:50:43 PM EDT
We won't mention what arrows (as in bow and arrow) do to body armour either.
Link Posted: 5/10/2003 7:11:29 PM EDT
Knives are in everyone's kitchen and they all easily go through the kevlar vests. We'd better not let the networks know about them or they'll put out a special and urge laws to ban them.
Link Posted: 5/10/2003 8:12:00 PM EDT
Wow. Thanks for all the info. I don't know whether to be happy or scared that the gun-grabbers are so ignorant of the facts.

My old scout troop leader related to us a err, experiment, in the penetration power of a broadhead arrow.

He and his two sons setup a backstop of a steel door, several layers of 2 by 4's and two mattresses. The broadhead went all the way through every layer and lodged itself in the steel door with a good inch or two having penetrated through the door.
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