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Link Posted: 2/26/2015 1:14:45 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By antman311:

Exactly. Thank you, cms81586.
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Originally Posted By antman311:
Originally Posted By cms81586:
Originally Posted By dangerdan:
Originally Posted By antman311:
I tried to take a different approach with my letter to the BATFE. As opposed to making arguments that the round is no more deadly to law enforcement than say M193 etc, I decided to identify the holes in the law itself and show that M855 does NOT satisfy either subsections of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(B).

Let me know if you guys think I make a good case and/or if my logic is sound. (Click each image to enlarge)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t31.0-8/10869354_10152850172283800_8904894484852500753_o.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t31.0-8/10506729_10152850172303800_1388279879232538459_o.jpg
https://scontent-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t31.0-8/10985329_10152850172158800_2926380304156888109_o.jpg

FNC assault rifle?


How about "FNC rifle"...


Because it was originally designed for use in the FNC Assault Rifle...not the neutered semiauto version that was imported to the U.S.

Exactly. Thank you, cms81586.
I know, but your talking about sending it to the ATF, who could care less about your rights to anything "assault" rifle...whether or not is was imported.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 1:19:46 PM EDT
More discussion by Rush
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 1:29:36 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:
Rush Limbaugh is now talking about this.
View Quote


YEAH!
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 1:35:27 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By superdoc:


YEAH!
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Originally Posted By superdoc:
Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:
Rush Limbaugh is now talking about this.


YEAH!

He's doing a good job of it too.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 1:39:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2015 1:39:35 PM EDT by gym007]
So there is nothing that we can do about this? Everyone here is just scrambling to buy as much as they can before it's banned?
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 1:41:10 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gym007:
So there is nothing that we can do about this? Everyone here is just scrambling to buy as much as they can before it's banned?
View Quote

Buy more.

Also call your Congressmen and submit a comment to the BATFE (yeah, I know, they don't care. It will help us in Congress and the Courts).
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 1:41:42 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By gym007:
So there is nothing that we can do about this? Everyone here is just scrambling to buy as much as they can before it's banned?
View Quote


We can do exactly the same thing we did in early 2013. Blow up phones & faxes. Fill mailboxes.

We're showing the ATF that they can't sneak this shit under the radar and we're getting our congresscritters on it. It's becoming a national thing.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 1:44:21 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By AJ-IN-JAX:

He's doing a good job of it too.
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Originally Posted By AJ-IN-JAX:
Originally Posted By superdoc:
Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:
Rush Limbaugh is now talking about this.


YEAH!

He's doing a good job of it too.

Oh yeah.. really laying out the political/underhanded FBHO aspects behind the ATF's action. That will piss off a lot of people that aren't even gun people... maybe even Fudds.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 1:45:03 PM EDT
Article on Drudge today highlighted in red:

Obama to ban bullets by executive action, threatens top-selling AR-15 rifle

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/article/2560750
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 1:46:22 PM EDT
This is finally going nation wide. GOOD.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 1:54:41 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By superdoc:
This is finally going nation wide. GOOD.
View Quote


Link Posted: 2/26/2015 1:56:43 PM EDT
If you guys thought the panic buying was bad before...
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 1:57:34 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TexasRifleman1985:
If you guys thought the panic buying was bad before...
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this
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 2:00:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2015 2:01:03 PM EDT by rightwing87]
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Originally Posted By AJ-IN-JAX:

He's doing a good job of it too.
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Originally Posted By AJ-IN-JAX:
Originally Posted By superdoc:
Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:
Rush Limbaugh is now talking about this.


YEAH!

He's doing a good job of it too.

He did a good job there of telling that caller saying "they can't ban ammo" that he's wrong. That caller apparently hasn't heard about 7N6.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 2:02:25 PM EDT
It use to be mostly just people active on gun related sites that were buying up M855. The vast majority of shooters remained oblivious.

Now pretty much every person with an a 5.56 weapon is going to be looking to buy M855 (whether they even know what it is or not).

Link Posted: 2/26/2015 2:18:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2015 2:19:38 PM EDT by M4Madness]
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 2:19:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2015 2:22:02 PM EDT by M4Madness]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By M4Madness:


81 cents a round shipped five minutes ago:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=470367245
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Originally Posted By M4Madness:
Originally Posted By TexasRifleman1985:
If you guys thought the panic buying was bad before...


81 cents a round shipped five minutes ago:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=470367245

Buy it and send the seller a Bag O' Dicks, courtesy of SKD for payment


Link Posted: 2/26/2015 2:22:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 2:36:01 PM EDT
I tried to send the ATF my comments via that SAVEM855.COM web site but it refuses to accept it. The page keeps screaming I need to put my name and address in the message regardless of how many times I put my name and address in the message.

Is there another way I can send my comments to the ATF? It probably won't do anything, but at least I can say I did something.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 2:41:21 PM EDT
Selling on Gunbroker for $.81 cents a round right now, I bet we see $2 a round for 855 within a couple months. XM193 will also get hoarded like 22LR now. This is a bad deal.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 2:53:49 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gym007:
So there is nothing that we can do about this? Everyone here is just scrambling to buy as much as they can before it's banned?
View Quote


Have you not seen the dozens of threads about responding?

Here is one

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1718217_Take_Action__Proposed_ATF_ban_on_M855_____How_to_respond.html&page=1

I have emailed Congress dudes. Still working on my ATF response.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 2:56:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2015 2:57:32 PM EDT by AmericanPeople]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GoodOlDave:
I tried to send the ATF my comments via that SAVEM855.COM web site but it refuses to accept it. The page keeps screaming I need to put my name and address in the message regardless of how many times I put my name and address in the message.

Is there another way I can send my comments to the ATF? It probably won't do anything, but at least I can say I did something.
View Quote


Last page of the proposal


ATF will carefully consider all comments, as appropriate, received on or before March 16, 2015, and will give comments received after that date the same consideration if it is practical to do so, but assurance of consideration cannot be given except as to comments received on or before March 16, 2015. ATF will not acknowledge receipt of comments.
Submit comments in any of three ways (but do not submit the same comments multiple times or by more than one method):
? ATF website: APAComments@atf.gov. Follow the instructions for submitting comments.
? Fax: (202) 648-9741.
? Mail: Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226: ATTN: AP Ammo Comments.
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Denise Brown, Enforcement Programs and Services, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, U.S. Department of Justice, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226; telephone: (202) 648-7070.

Link Posted: 2/26/2015 2:58:05 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By M4Madness:


Someone already bought it.
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Originally Posted By M4Madness:
Originally Posted By dangerdan:
Originally Posted By M4Madness:
Originally Posted By TexasRifleman1985:
If you guys thought the panic buying was bad before...


81 cents a round shipped five minutes ago:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=470367245

Buy it and send the seller a Bag O' Dicks, courtesy of SKD for payment




Someone already bought it.

Now is not the time to panic buy bags of dicks.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:00:09 PM EDT
I have 1000 rounds of Fedora M855 for sale
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:00:35 PM EDT
And here comes the increase on all FMJ .223 and 5.56 ammo.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:03:49 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DieselII:
this
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Originally Posted By DieselII:
Originally Posted By TexasRifleman1985:
If you guys thought the panic buying was bad before...
this


You should be panicking. The fudds should panic. The handgun guys should panic.


Last time someone from the govt. wants to take away your right (whether arbitrarily or not) you should panic.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:04:53 PM EDT
TexasRifleMan, did you dissect and weigh a SS109/M855 bullet as seen earlier in the thread?

The 10.8 grains (grams?) for the jacket differs from a value of 19.8 gr that I have seen.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:24:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2015 3:26:12 PM EDT by JIMBEAM]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TexasRifleman1985:

Now is not the time to panic buy bags of dicks.
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Originally Posted By TexasRifleman1985:
Originally Posted By M4Madness:
Originally Posted By dangerdan:
Originally Posted By M4Madness:
Originally Posted By TexasRifleman1985:
If you guys thought the panic buying was bad before...


81 cents a round shipped five minutes ago:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=470367245

Buy it and send the seller a Bag O' Dicks, courtesy of SKD for payment




Someone already bought it.

Now is not the time to panic buy bags of dicks.




There is a can with a $450 reserve with a bid. $1.00 per round
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:25:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:25:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2015 3:31:58 PM EDT by TexasRifleman1985]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:
TexasRifleMan, did you dissect and weigh a SS109/M855 bullet as seen earlier in the thread?

The 10.8 grains (grams?) for the jacket differs from a value of 19.8 gr that I have seen.
View Quote

Yes, I dissected it. The correct weight for that particular projectiles jacket was 20.3 grains. But some folks flipped out and asked I not give any ideas to our opponents who are doubtlessly reading this. Now everyone is posting numbers so whatever, it's out of my hands.

Crucify me if you want, I didn't want to give the other side ideas, once that was pointed out to me.

Counter arguments:
1) The common definition of ".22 caliber" has always included .222-.224" guns.
2) For a projectile to be "full jacketed" it would have to be base enclosed.
3) M855 was not "designed and intended" to be fired from a handgun.


For the record, pretty much all .224 FMJs seem to have jacket percentages above 25%. Don't believe me, obviously, test it yourself.

An attack on that front is coming eventually, I believe.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:26:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2015 3:27:08 PM EDT by TexasRifleman1985]
OMG burst fire it's an MG...
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:29:45 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:
TexasRifleMan, did you dissect and weigh a SS109/M855 bullet as seen earlier in the thread?

The 10.8 grains (grams?) for the jacket differs from a value of 19.8 gr that I have seen.
View Quote


His original post when he weighed it was 20.3 grs. Then he was afraid he was giving fuel justifying the ban since the jacket weight was over 25% (even though it doesn't apply to 22 cal), so he edited his post with a fake weight so that jacket would be under 25% in order to confuse ATF agents monitoring this thread, as well as several members. Because the ATF would go by the weight posted in a thread instead of either 1. Weigh it themselves or 2. Call over to the Army and ask what the jacket weighs.

Original Photo from post.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:32:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2015 3:38:29 PM EDT by AmericanPeople]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TexasRifleman1985:
Crucify me if you want, I didn't want to give the other side ideas, once that was pointed out to me.
View Quote


I just want the truth. Too many people are using the 10.8 gr value to incorrectly tell the ATF that the jacket is under 25% of the bullet weight.

That does not help. Since this projectile is still 22 caliber part (ii) does not make it armor piercing.

Part (i) does not make it armor piercing since the core is not close to 100% steel (or other bad material).

Thanks for the clarification. I will use the 19.8 gr value I saw in another document.

The federal statutory definition of "Armor Piercing Ammunition" (see 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(17)(B).16) is:

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed ENTIRELY (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:35:35 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:


I just want the truth. Too many people are using the 10.8 gr value to incorrectly tell the ATF that the jacket is under 25% of the bullet weight.

That does not help. Since this projectile is still 22 caliber part (ii) still not not make it armor piercing.

Part (i) does not make it armor piercing since the core is not close to 100% steel (or other bad material).

Thanks for the clarification. I will use the 19.8 gr value I saw in another document.
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Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:
Originally Posted By TexasRifleman1985:
Crucify me if you want, I didn't want to give the other side ideas, once that was pointed out to me.


I just want the truth. Too many people are using the 10.8 gr value to incorrectly tell the ATF that the jacket is under 25% of the bullet weight.

That does not help. Since this projectile is still 22 caliber part (ii) still not not make it armor piercing.

Part (i) does not make it armor piercing since the core is not close to 100% steel (or other bad material).

Thanks for the clarification. I will use the 19.8 gr value I saw in another document.

Would you like me to go back and reedit those comments at this point?

Caution seemed warranted at the time, my apologies for the unexpected problems.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:39:47 PM EDT
ARFcom GD....where people argue over 0.50 grains of weight.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:40:46 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Crash_Test_Dhimmi:
If we do not stop this, eventually this will be the only BATFE approved civilian 556/223 round

http://www.ammo-one.com/5-56BLANK-X.jpg
View Quote

Yeah and EPA will ban that because....environment.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:41:02 PM EDT
It would be difficult to edit past weights. At this point people can use the correct value of about 19.8 gr. All that matters now is that the jacket is over 25% of the projectile weight but since it is NOT larger than .22 caliber, that means that you can't use that percentage to label M855 as armor piercing.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:41:41 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By dangerdan:
ARFcom GD....where people argue over 0.50 grains of weight.
View Quote

BATFE: Where they ignore select words in the law so that a few grains that don't matter suddenly become a Big Fucking Deal.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:42:05 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By dangerdan:
ARFcom GD....where people argue over 0.50 grains of weight.
View Quote


We are clarifying whether the actual value is around 19.8 gr or 10.8 gr. That is the issue...not 19.8 or 20.3.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:44:35 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GoodOlDave:
I tried to send the ATF my comments via that SAVEM855.COM web site but it refuses to accept it. The page keeps screaming I need to put my name and address in the message regardless of how many times I put my name and address in the message.

Is there another way I can send my comments to the ATF? It probably won't do anything, but at least I can say I did something.
View Quote

E-mail. APAComments@atf.gov.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:45:25 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:
It would be difficult to edit past weights. At this point people can use the correct value of about 19.8 gr. All that matters now is that the jacket is over 25% of the projectile weight but since it is NOT larger than .22 caliber, that means that you can't use that percentage to label M855 as armor piercing.
View Quote

18 U.S. Code § 921 (a) 17 (B) (ii) also has "designed and intended for use in a handgun" and "fully jacketed" as qualifiers.

To argue M855 was "designed and intended for use in a handgun" is nothing short of insane.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:47:10 PM EDT

480 rnds XM855 steel core armor piercing
223 5.56

AR15 AR soon discontinued ss109 green tip ammo
Auction # 470374113




This item has been Sold!




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480 rnds XM855 steel core armor piercing 223 5.56



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Current Bid $449.00 Reserve Met! Started at $0.01

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Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:48:36 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By dangerdan:
ARFcom GD....where people argue over 0.50 grains of weight.
View Quote


Those same people who say they are 6'1 200#s and they are really 5'9" and 280#'s
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:49:40 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TexasRifleman1985:

18 U.S. Code § 921 (a) 17 (B) (ii) also has "designed and intended for use in a handgun" and "fully jacketed" as qualifiers.

To argue M855 was "designed and intended for use in a handgun" is nothing short of insane.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TexasRifleman1985:
Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:
It would be difficult to edit past weights. At this point people can use the correct value of about 19.8 gr. All that matters now is that the jacket is over 25% of the projectile weight but since it is NOT larger than .22 caliber, that means that you can't use that percentage to label M855 as armor piercing.

18 U.S. Code § 921 (a) 17 (B) (ii) also has "designed and intended for use in a handgun" and "fully jacketed" as qualifiers.

To argue M855 was "designed and intended for use in a handgun" is nothing short of insane.


If shouldering a pistol with sig brace "redesigns" it as a SBR then the ATF is actually being consistent with their "logic" here.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:51:53 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TexasRifleman1985:

BATFE: Where they ignore select words in the law so that a few grains that don't matter suddenly become a Big Fucking Deal.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TexasRifleman1985:
Originally Posted By dangerdan:
ARFcom GD....where people argue over 0.50 grains of weight.

BATFE: Where they ignore select words in the law so that a few grains that don't matter suddenly become a Big Fucking Deal.
How would that stop the ATF from just going back and reclassify things to fit their agenda?
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:52:07 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JoeJeeps:


If shouldering a pistol with sig brace "redesigns" it as a SBR then the ATF is actually being consistent with their "logic" here.
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Originally Posted By JoeJeeps:
Originally Posted By TexasRifleman1985:
Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:
It would be difficult to edit past weights. At this point people can use the correct value of about 19.8 gr. All that matters now is that the jacket is over 25% of the projectile weight but since it is NOT larger than .22 caliber, that means that you can't use that percentage to label M855 as armor piercing.

18 U.S. Code § 921 (a) 17 (B) (ii) also has "designed and intended for use in a handgun" and "fully jacketed" as qualifiers.

To argue M855 was "designed and intended for use in a handgun" is nothing short of insane.


If shouldering a pistol with sig brace "redesigns" it as a SBR then the ATF is actually being consistent with their "logic" here.

...

Yup... Hence the concern.

They will try to use this angle, I'm sure of it. Maybe a year down the road, but it's not much more creative than the current reinterpretation.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:53:21 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By dangerdan:
ARFcom GD....where people argue over 0.50 grains of weight.
View Quote


No the question is 10.8 vs. 19.8/20.3

10 to 10.5 grains.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 3:59:10 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ShooterPatriot:


No the question is 10.8 vs. 19.8/20.3

10 to 10.5 grains.
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Originally Posted By ShooterPatriot:
Originally Posted By dangerdan:
ARFcom GD....where people argue over 0.50 grains of weight.


No the question is 10.8 vs. 19.8/20.3

10 to 10.5 grains.


Bottom line: do not argue that the jacket percentage is under 25% of the projectile weight. Use the 22 caliber and not designed for a handgun TRUTH as written a few posts above.
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 4:10:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/26/2015 4:14:05 PM EDT
I will sell every round of 5.56 I have for $1 a round. Seriously.
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