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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/8/2005 2:32:46 PM EDT
For those of you who live under a rock, Mr. Vang was trespassing, which he had a long history of doing, and when the landowner tried to kick him out of his treestand and off the property, Mr. Vang killed a crapload of them with his SKS. Two of the victims were ambushed after the initial confrontation as they arrived on the scene on an ATV.






The defense claims Mr. Vang was racially slurred. I don't care. Stick and stones. Words do not justify lethal force!

www.jsonline.com/news/state/sep05/354114.asp


Jury chosen in trial of man accused of killing 6 hunters
By TOM HELD
theld@journalsentinel.com
Posted: Sept. 8, 2005
Madison - Both the prosecutor and defense said they were satisfied Thursday with the jury of 10 women and four men selected to hear the trial of Chai Soua Vang, the St. Paul, Minn. man charged with killing six Wisconsin hunters last November.

North Woods Shootings
The Suspect


Photo/AP

Chai Vang appears on court Thursday as a jury is chosen in his trial.

Related Coverage
9/3/05: Vang defense faces tough challenge
Key players in the Vang trial

Background
Story archive: Coverage of the Sawyer County hunting deaths
Video archive: TMJ4 newscasts

Documents
Criminal Complaint (pdf): State vs. Chai Soua Vang (11/29/04)
Probable Cause (pdf): Includes statement from suspect (11/23/04)

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The jury selection, streamlined by the use of questionnaires sent to prospective jurors over the summer, moved quickly and concluded in less than three hours, before Sawyer County Judge Norman Yackel. He had ordered that the jury be drawn from Dane County to avoid the impact of the intense publicity and strong feelings in Sawyer County, in northern Wisconsin.

Through the questionnaires, Yackel and the attorneys winnowed roughly 400 to 130 people who appeared at the Dane County Courthouse.

An almost all-white group of 95 was brought into the courtroom, where questioning began of the first 28 names on the list. Yackel eliminated nine potential jurors, leaving the prosecutors and defense attorneys to strike seven each. At least four of the 14 removed by the lawyers were gun owners or have guns in their households, based on their answers to questions from the attorneys.

The jury will be bused to Hayward, where the trial will begin with opening statements at 9 a.m. Saturday.

Vang, 36, is charged with six counts of first-degree intentional homicide and three counts of attempted homicide. One potential juror told Yackel the number of charges alone would influence him in the case and the judge excused him from the panel.

Everyone who filled out a questionnaire reported they had heard something about the Nov. 21 shootings in the north woods, which took place on the second day of the state's gun deer season.

According to the charges against him, Vang opened fire on a group of six hunters who had confronted him for trespassing on their private hunting property near Exeland, on the southern border of Sawyer County. Vang, a native of Laos who immigrated to the U.S. in 1980, told authorities that he fired in self-defense, after one member of the group fired a shot that landed behind him.

Vang also said members of the hunting party shouted obscenities and racial slurs at him, while ordering him off the property.

Vang fatally wounded Dennis Drew, 55, and Mark Roidt, 28, in the initial flurry of shots. He then chased and killed Robert Crotteau, 42, and his son, Joey, 20.

After a pause, he shot and killed Allan Laski, 43, and Jessica Willers, 27, who were riding an ATV to the scene to assist the earlier victims.

The survivors of the onslaught, Terry Willers and Lauren Hesebeck, have told investigators that Vang opened fire largely without provocation, and that he fired the first shot. Willers' and Hesebeck's accounts differ as to whether Willers returned fire with the rifle he was carrying.

In questioning the potential jurors, Attorney General Peg Lautenschlager asked if any of them had retaliated when people shouted at them, and how they had retaliated. One juror who responded that he had hit someone who shouted at him was struck by the attorneys during the selection.

While conducted quickly, the jury selection also was done largely outside the public's view.

Newspaper reporters and the general public were prohibited from the courtroom as the potential jurors were questioned. A television feed provided for reporters and the public did not show the faces of the jurors, who were identified only by name.

The use of the questionnaires also eliminated the dissemination of background information on those in the jury pool, and those ultimately selected to consider the evidence against Vang. Such information is typically drawn out from potential jurors via questions during the selection process.

Vang sat at the defense table, wearing a dark green suit. He conferred frequently with his attorneys, Steven Kohn and Jonathan Smith, as they perused the questionnaires deciding with seven potential jurors to strike.

The lawyers have been reviewing those questionnaires for roughly three weeks. The returned questionnaires remained under seal Thursday.

"We know an enormous amount about these people," Kohn said.

Questioning by the attorneys shed little light on the makeup of the jury beyond their assurances that they will hear the evidence and remain impartial.

That satisfied Kohn.

"My sense is these are people taking this case seriously and who promised to be fair and just," Kohn said. "We are comfortable with what we see."

Lautenschlager, who is trying her first case in almost a decade, also said the jurors were committed to a fair and impartial hearing of the facts.

Yackel addressed the jurors shortly after the selection and shared the list of items that would be prohibited during their sequestration, including lap top computers. Televisions and telephones will be removed from the jurors' hotel rooms, but they will be able to watch TV as a group. A bailiff will monitor the programs they watch and stand by to mute any reference to the ongoing trial.

Yackel listed more than 50 names of potential witnesses who could be called to testify in a trial scheduled to last up to two weeks.


Link Posted: 9/8/2005 2:36:00 PM EDT
firing squad
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 2:38:10 PM EDT

racially slurred.


He looks like it to. Ban him from life.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 2:38:30 PM EDT
Let him fry
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 2:42:35 PM EDT
wonderful....how much money did the taxpayers spend to keep him in jail for the past...what...year before trial????

I'd personally buck up the .50 cents for a bullet.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:54:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:56:39 PM EDT
Yep this one hits close to home. They should jsut execute his murderin' ass and be done with it.

Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:02:53 PM EDT


I'll bet he gets off with the PTSD defense..............
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:04:21 PM EDT
Yeah, this one is about as cut and dried as it gets.

Except for one, those he shot were all unarmed and mostly shot in the back. POS.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:30:19 PM EDT
The fix is already in. The jurors are from Madison. The press corps have already decided that Vang was "provoked" and the hunting group shot at him first.

Wish I could explain where the inside info is from but I can't.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:57:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GunLvrPHD:
The fix is already in. The jurors are from Madison. The press corps have already decided that Vang was "provoked" and the hunting group shot at him first.

Wish I could explain where the inside info is from but I can't.



Go ahead cut him loose. Someone will get to him within 6 months.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:02:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GunLvrPHD:
The fix is already in. The jurors are from Madison. The press corps have already decided that Vang was "provoked" and the hunting group shot at him first.

Wish I could explain where the inside info is from but I can't.



Yeah..provoked to hide and wait for the two people to come riding by on 4 wheelers, then shooting them in the back.

I hope they hang the assclown from the tallest tree they can find.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:30:14 PM EDT
"...removed (from the jury pool) because they were gun owners." Let's see, we have a situation during a hunting season by armed people but they don't want anyone on the jury that knows anything about guns or hunting. Makes sense to me.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 6:39:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 6:40:24 AM EDT by photoman]
And remember folks he did this with a Saiga sporter AK with a single 10rd mag, that he reloaded.....

This situation just goes to show how important training and mind set are. Learn to fight with your guns because you never know when you are going to have to. This may sound cruel to some folks, but some of the people killed would probably not have died had they known what to do. The two folks that were shot off the ATV(in the back at that) were comming to aid the wounded. The best of intentions, but the shooter was still there, and still fighting and as a result, they ended up dead. I'm not excusing the actions of the shooter. Just pointing out how important it is, no matter why you own guns, to get some training and put in the work to keep those skills fresh.

There is no way that one man, with a gun that had a 10 round mag should have been able to open up on, kill 6 people and wound 2. At least thats what the common thought seems to be on this board. That one man against 8 would lose. But the diferance was that Vang had military experiance, he had some type of training in the use of/fighting with guns. Superior numbers will only get you so far. There comes a point when mindset and knowledge will be more important then numbers. And this situation unfortunetly proves just that.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:16:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:
And remember folks he did this with a Saiga sporter AK with a single 10rd mag, that he reloaded.....

This situation just goes to show how important training and mind set are. Learn to fight with your guns because you never know when you are going to have to. This may sound cruel to some folks, but some of the people killed would probably not have died had they known what to do. The two folks that were shot off the ATV(in the back at that) were comming to aid the wounded. The best of intentions, but the shooter was still there, and still fighting and as a result, they ended up dead. I'm not excusing the actions of the shooter. Just pointing out how important it is, no matter why you own guns, to get some training and put in the work to keep those skills fresh.

There is no way that one man, with a gun that had a 10 round mag should have been able to open up on, kill 6 people and wound 2. At least thats what the common thought seems to be on this board. That one man against 8 would lose. But the diferance was that Vang had military experiance, he had some type of training in the use of/fighting with guns. Superior numbers will only get you so far. There comes a point when mindset and knowledge will be more important then numbers. And this situation unfortunetly proves just that.




While not shooting related, I have been involved in three or four accidents at work that resulted in serious injury and death. There is always a delay while your mind comes to grips with the fact that shit is indeed going downhill real fast. Then once you start to act, your mind starts to race. Everything goes into slow motion. If you are not sure what to do, YOU WILL SOMETIMES EVEN DO NOTHING. Experience these things and it comes faster with that experience. If you don't have a real good idea of exactly what to do, your racing mind will slow you down. Having a set of specific instructions to follow when SHTF allows you to lean on that and just DO rather than think. This is where you "beat the clock" so to speak.

Just because we have training, doesn't mean much other than we can have some faith in what we can do WHEN we act and do it properly. There is a fat gray line filled with fog in between the point where the SHTF and the point where you can just act on that training.

Oh yeah......you really do get the shakes afterwards. At least I do.

I will bet that at least one of those hunters could bring a rifle up and hit a deer, running or stationary, fast and smooth, on autopilot. The proper stimulus just wasn't there. And they just never considered that a trespasser would shoot and kill them. That has as much to do with attitude as anything. It's like football. You can sit in front of a Juggs machine and catch footballs all day long. But when the season starts, at the first snap, it's a totally different ballgame. Every year, NFL rookies play their first season. They have talent and skills, but not experience and mindset.

Firearms training gives us "ball skills". Is it enough to survive a lethal force encounter? Maybe, and maybe not. This is why people preach situational awareness. The farther away we see trouble coming, the more time we have to get across that "gray area" where we struggle to wrap our mind around what is happening, determine the appropriate response, and then kick in our training.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:27:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweeder:
firing squad



Right you are Sir!!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:43:01 AM EDT
Which was it, a Saiga, or an SKS. And I heard he was a 'Yard tribesmen and saw a bunch of bad shit in Nam. So the truth is that he was probably born in NYC, I'd think now-a-days either would probably get you off on a ptsd defense.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:46:28 AM EDT
photoman: Surprise is a HUGE advantage.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:51:02 AM EDT
I say "Killins" too good for a crazed POS like that....let'im walk.....let'im "THINK" he got off....let a few days pass....then put the snatch on'im....zip ties, duct tape, pliers, propane torch, a box or two of .22 shorts, a few buckets of ice water (to bring him back to consciousness, soda pop, chips, dip and assorted party snacks....oh...and a big sandwich..like a 6' hogie and let the surviving family members have themselves a little party...hey...don't laugh...it's extremely therpuetic....it speeds up "The Grieving Process" tremedously and upon completion?...adds...."an immediate sense of closure."...and then?....

It's Party Time!!! Featuring One Mr. Vang!!!
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:51:57 AM EDT
"At least four of the 14 removed by the lawyers were gun owners or have guns in their households, based on their answers to questions from the attorneys."

What happened to "a jury of your peers"? Gun owners should be on the jury.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:04:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheKill:

Originally Posted By photoman:
And remember folks he did this with a Saiga sporter AK with a single 10rd mag, that he reloaded.....

This situation just goes to show how important training and mind set are. Learn to fight with your guns because you never know when you are going to have to. This may sound cruel to some folks, but some of the people killed would probably not have died had they known what to do. The two folks that were shot off the ATV(in the back at that) were comming to aid the wounded. The best of intentions, but the shooter was still there, and still fighting and as a result, they ended up dead. I'm not excusing the actions of the shooter. Just pointing out how important it is, no matter why you own guns, to get some training and put in the work to keep those skills fresh.

There is no way that one man, with a gun that had a 10 round mag should have been able to open up on, kill 6 people and wound 2. At least thats what the common thought seems to be on this board. That one man against 8 would lose. But the diferance was that Vang had military experiance, he had some type of training in the use of/fighting with guns. Superior numbers will only get you so far. There comes a point when mindset and knowledge will be more important then numbers. And this situation unfortunetly proves just that.




While not shooting related, I have been involved in three or four accidents at work that resulted in serious injury and death. There is always a delay while your mind comes to grips with the fact that shit is indeed going downhill real fast. Then once you start to act, your mind starts to race. Everything goes into slow motion. If you are not sure what to do, YOU WILL SOMETIMES EVEN DO NOTHING. Experience these things and it comes faster with that experience. If you don't have a real good idea of exactly what to do, your racing mind will slow you down. Having a set of specific instructions to follow when SHTF allows you to lean on that and just DO rather than think. This is where you "beat the clock" so to speak.

Just because we have training, doesn't mean much other than we can have some faith in what we can do WHEN we act and do it properly. There is a fat gray line filled with fog in between the point where the SHTF and the point where you can just act on that training.

Oh yeah......you really do get the shakes afterwards. At least I do.

I will bet that at least one of those hunters could bring a rifle up and hit a deer, running or stationary, fast and smooth, on autopilot. The proper stimulus just wasn't there. And they just never considered that a trespasser would shoot and kill them. That has as much to do with attitude as anything. It's like football. You can sit in front of a Juggs machine and catch footballs all day long. But when the season starts, at the first snap, it's a totally different ballgame. Every year, NFL rookies play their first season. They have talent and skills, but not experience and mindset.

Firearms training gives us "ball skills". Is it enough to survive a lethal force encounter? Maybe, and maybe not. This is why people preach situational awareness. The farther away we see trouble coming, the more time we have to get across that "gray area" where we struggle to wrap our mind around what is happening, determine the appropriate response, and then kick in our training.



You bring up a lot of good points. Thats why I also brought up the whole mind set thing. I have to deal with emergency situations at work too, so I know what you mean. I've also had to deal with armed trespassers on property outside of work. And I never once delt with them while unarmed, simply because I do not know their intentions.

But the other important thing here is that with that training, it gives you somethign to immediatly fall back on. Your mind doesn't have to sit there and work through a lot of shit, you just go. At least thats my experiance when dealing with emergencies here at work and outside of work. When something happens I don't sit and go what do I do what do I do. I react immediatly because I have certain tasks that I already know must be done. If you have a plan of action it is easier to react to the situation.

A simple example. I friend and I witnessed a car accident real close to his house, and up close and personal. I almost had one of the cars involved land on the hood of my car, had I not thrown the car in reverse and backed up or it would have. As soon as I was clear of the car comming at me, I was out of my car on the phone with 911 my buddy was out of the car at the same time and immediatly went to the car that as now on it's side reached in and turned off the car. I was checking for leaking fluids(gas). The immediat threat in that situation was leaking gas and a possible fire, once those threats were eliminated we turned our attention to the person in the car.

By the time I got out of my car there were 9 people standing around going WTF do I do, should I do anything. And only one other person got directly involved and she was a ER nurse, who came by right about the time we got up to the car. Between her my buddy and myself we made the scene as safe as possible till the cops showed up. And she took care of giving the driver of the car the once over before EMTs showed up. The guy was fine, one bruise and a cut, that was it. Not bad for having been in a roll over with no seat belt on.

There were 13 people at that accident scene before the cops and EMS folks showed up, only three of us had a clue as to how to react to it/what to do/ what not to do. The guy in the car wanted to climb out of the thing, and even though he looked fine, we were not willing to take the risk that he might have some internal damage. We convinced him to stay where he was untill the EMTs could clear him, but the only reason we did that was because there was no leaking gas and no fire. Had there been leaking gas or fire we would have gotten him out ASAP.

It's been proven in studies after major disaters and accidents that the people who have been through something similar, or had a plan for "just in case" are the ones that will survive the majority of the time. The reason for that is because thier brain doesn't have to dig as much to "find" the information. I wish I could find the artical that was in IIRC time magazine about this, it was posted here before.

Think about why we scan after shooting targets in class. We do it to break tunnel vision, assess the situation and look for other threats, the same reason we check our six. One of the things engrained in our heads is that you have to take out the threat(attacker) before you can do anything else. The very first thing you do in an active shooter situation is eliminate the immediate threat. That was the biggest bitch most people had about Columbine, the cops didn't go in fast enough. But the problem with that is that you can't do anything to help the wounded and dying untill the threat is eliminated, and they didn't know if the threat was still an active threat.

That comes down to mindset. If you never think of it being possible that you may end up in that situation, your going to probably end up either not reacting fast enough, or not reacting at all. Thats why the training is important, because it not only gives you the "ball skillz" but it gets you into the mindset as well. I just got into this conversation last night and actually demonstrated it to a buddy who said to me, why take a class i know how to shoot. I gave him his grandson's water gun and said ok, I'm comming at you with a knife, and I came at him, by the time he got the gun cleared of his waist band, I had my fist in his gut. Then we switched places and he came at me. Yah know that little sidestep draw and shoot Sully had us doing, works like a charm. It forced him to react to my reaction to him, took the ball out of his court and put it in mine. It wasn't something I had to think about doing, it was something I just did, because it's in my head as DO THIS!! It was the first thing he asked me about too. "Why'd you sidestep?" I explained it to him, I should have said, take the class and you'll find out. When you take a training class, you should be doing it not only to develop the physical skills, but the mindset as well.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:12:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:20:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By warlord:
photoman: Surprise is a HUGE advantage.



Yes it is, but for one person, it should have only taken him so far, his mindset, and his knowledge of how to fight with a gun were more valuable in this situation then the surprise. Even after the inital shots were fired somone could have still reacted and ended the situation, but none of them were ready for this to happen and unfortunitly for them it lead to people getting killed. In that situation the only reason that he had the element of surprise is because they allowed him to. Their situational awareness was piss poor. Remember he was walking away when the shooting started, who shot first is a matter of who's telling the story.

I've delt with armed trespassers before. We have certain procedures that we follow when doing so. One of them is that we never ever under any circumstances confront them while un-armed. And we always ask them to at a minimum remove the round they have chambered.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:28:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By warlord:
photoman: Surprise is a HUGE advantage.



Yes it is, but for one person, it should have only taken him so far, his mindset, and his knowledge of how to fight with a gun were more valuable in this situation then the surprise. Even after the inital shots were fired somone could have still reacted and ended the situation, but none of them were ready for this to happen and unfortunitly for them it lead to people getting killed. In that situation the only reason that he had the element of surprise is because they allowed him to. Their situational awareness was piss poor. Remember he was walking away when the shooting started, who shot first is a matter of who's telling the story.

I've delt with armed trespassers before. We have certain procedures that we follow when doing so. One of them is that we never ever under any circumstances confront them while un-armed. And we always ask them to at a minimum remove the round they have chambered.


Yeah, I'm afraid not in their wildest dreams this would happen, after all this is the United States of America. This is real unfortunate, but you're right. In the real world a class would be very beneficial.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:37:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
Which was it, a Saiga, or an SKS. And I heard he was a 'Yard tribesmen and saw a bunch of bad shit in Nam. So the truth is that he was probably born in NYC, I'd think now-a-days either would probably get you off on a ptsd defense.



Well the pics I saw of it were of a sprterised Saiga AK. Some of the documents(including the PC statement call it a Saiga SKS. But that doesn't jive with the actuall pics of the weapon. Also some documents state it was a 20rd mag, however that goes against what Vang himself said about it. Remember these guns were imported durring the AWB, And AFAIK Saiga does not make an SKS.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:38:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By warlord:

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By warlord:
photoman: Surprise is a HUGE advantage.



Yes it is, but for one person, it should have only taken him so far, his mindset, and his knowledge of how to fight with a gun were more valuable in this situation then the surprise. Even after the inital shots were fired somone could have still reacted and ended the situation, but none of them were ready for this to happen and unfortunitly for them it lead to people getting killed. In that situation the only reason that he had the element of surprise is because they allowed him to. Their situational awareness was piss poor. Remember he was walking away when the shooting started, who shot first is a matter of who's telling the story.

I've delt with armed trespassers before. We have certain procedures that we follow when doing so. One of them is that we never ever under any circumstances confront them while un-armed. And we always ask them to at a minimum remove the round they have chambered.


Yeah, I'm afraid not in their wildest dreams this would happen, after all this is the United States of America. This is real unfortunate, but you're right. In the real world a class would be very beneficial.



Along with the proper mindset, and good situational awareness, it could keep you alive.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 8:51:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheKill:
Lautenschlager, who is trying her first case in almost a decade, also said the jurors were committed to a fair and impartial hearing of the facts.



Peg is the state's elected Attorney General. Her public polling shows that she has NO chance of being re-elected, largely because of her drunk/drugged-driving fiasco.

Coincidentally, no attorney general in the last 15 years or so has personally prosecuted a case.

This is a desperate attempt for her to regain popularity by putting this guy behind bars. She's desperate for some positive publicity. Can you imagine what will happen if she loses this case?

I hope her desperation doesn't affect her prosecution.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 9:05:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By glenn_r:

Originally Posted By TheKill:
Lautenschlager, who is trying her first case in almost a decade, also said the jurors were committed to a fair and impartial hearing of the facts.



Peg is the state's elected Attorney General. Her public polling shows that she has NO chance of being re-elected, largely because of her drunk/drugged-driving fiasco.

Coincidentally, no attorney general in the last 15 years or so has personally prosecuted a case.

This is a desperate attempt for her to regain popularity by putting this guy behind bars. She's desperate for some positive publicity. Can you imagine what will happen if she loses this case?

I hope her desperation doesn't affect her prosecution.



Oh it can and it will because she is doing out of pure political motivation and nothing else. OJ trial.....
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 9:18:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By glenn_r:

Originally Posted By TheKill:
Lautenschlager, who is trying her first case in almost a decade, also said the jurors were committed to a fair and impartial hearing of the facts.



Peg is the state's elected Attorney General. Her public polling shows that she has NO chance of being re-elected, largely because of her drunk/drugged-driving fiasco.

Coincidentally, no attorney general in the last 15 years or so has personally prosecuted a case.

This is a desperate attempt for her to regain popularity by putting this guy behind bars. She's desperate for some positive publicity. Can you imagine what will happen if she loses this case?

I hope her desperation doesn't affect her prosecution.



Oh it can and it will because she is doing out of pure political motivation and nothing else. OJ trial.....



+1
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 9:25:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
Which was it, a Saiga, or an SKS. And I heard he was a 'Yard tribesmen and saw a bunch of bad shit in Nam. So the truth is that he was probably born in NYC, I'd think now-a-days either would probably get you off on a ptsd defense.



Well the pics I saw of it were of a sprterised Saiga AK. Some of the documents(including the PC statement call it a Saiga SKS. But that doesn't jive with the actuall pics of the weapon. Also some documents state it was a 20rd mag, however that goes against what Vang himself said about it. Remember these guns were imported durring the AWB, And AFAIK Saiga does not make an SKS.



Saiga hunting rifle
Guy was born in US, never saw any combat, was in the California Nat'l Guard. Sounds like he just hated white people.

He is also supsected in a similar shooting several years before this about 80mi from where this occurred. Lone hunter shot in the back, looking for a pickup similar to his with 3 asian males. From what I know his hunting buddies have been no help in this regard but I ahve not heard that they have been helpful to the investigation at all. Not something I have heard much at all about though.

Guy confessed and told the entire story to the Sherrif and signed a statement. It is out there on the internet--try a google search.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 9:31:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:
I say "Killins" too good for a crazed POS like that....let'im walk.....let'im "THINK" he got off....let a few days pass....then put the snatch on'im....zip ties, duct tape, pliers, propane torch, a box or two of .22 shorts, a few buckets of ice water (to bring him back to consciousness, soda pop, chips, dip and assorted party snacks....oh...and a big sandwich..like a 6' hogie and let the surviving family members have themselves a little party...hey...don't laugh...it's extremely therpuetic....it speeds up "The Grieving Process" tremedously and upon completion?...adds...."an immediate sense of closure."...and then?....

It's Party Time!!! Featuring One Mr. Vang!!!



damn fine idea!
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 9:52:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 9:52:53 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By Rebel_Marine:

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
Which was it, a Saiga, or an SKS. And I heard he was a 'Yard tribesmen and saw a bunch of bad shit in Nam. So the truth is that he was probably born in NYC, I'd think now-a-days either would probably get you off on a ptsd defense.



Well the pics I saw of it were of a sprterised Saiga AK. Some of the documents(including the PC statement call it a Saiga SKS. But that doesn't jive with the actuall pics of the weapon. Also some documents state it was a 20rd mag, however that goes against what Vang himself said about it. Remember these guns were imported durring the AWB, And AFAIK Saiga does not make an SKS.



Saiga hunting rifle
Guy was born in US, never saw any combat, was in the California Nat'l Guard. Sounds like he just hated white people.

He is also supsected in a similar shooting several years before this about 80mi from where this occurred. Lone hunter shot in the back, looking for a pickup similar to his with 3 asian males. From what I know his hunting buddies have been no help in this regard but I ahve not heard that they have been helpful to the investigation at all. Not something I have heard much at all about though.

Guy confessed and told the entire story to the Sherrif and signed a statement. It is out there on the internet--try a google search.



Ive read the Probable Cause statment from the cops, I've read his conffession. I've followed this whole story from the time it happened. The JSonline has a shitload of stuff on this case and the incident. However one thing you have wrong, he came to the US in Sept. 1975 when he was 7 years old from Laos. He may not have saw any type of combat at all in the military(don't know what his MOS was), however he still had some level of training in the use of weapons.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 10:01:56 AM EDT
What Vang did was wrong, but those hunters get a Darwin award for racially slurring a guy with a semi-automatic when they had nothing...

I'm not going to drive to Compton/Oakland and call the local residents lazy ass welfare leeches, and i'm not going to drive to Northern Idaho to let the Aryans know that they are assholes and should've been crushed under a T-34 tank half a century ago...

Words may be sticks and stones, but like in my example, you shouldn't talk shit in a situation like that. Hey look, a random guy on my property with a semi automatic rifle while my rifle is not in my hands, go to hell you (insert racial slur)
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 10:11:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By Rebel_Marine:

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
Which was it, a Saiga, or an SKS. And I heard he was a 'Yard tribesmen and saw a bunch of bad shit in Nam. So the truth is that he was probably born in NYC, I'd think now-a-days either would probably get you off on a ptsd defense.



Well the pics I saw of it were of a sprterised Saiga AK. Some of the documents(including the PC statement call it a Saiga SKS. But that doesn't jive with the actuall pics of the weapon. Also some documents state it was a 20rd mag, however that goes against what Vang himself said about it. Remember these guns were imported durring the AWB, And AFAIK Saiga does not make an SKS.



Saiga hunting rifle
Guy was born in US, never saw any combat, was in the California Nat'l Guard. Sounds like he just hated white people.

He is also supsected in a similar shooting several years before this about 80mi from where this occurred. Lone hunter shot in the back, looking for a pickup similar to his with 3 asian males. From what I know his hunting buddies have been no help in this regard but I ahve not heard that they have been helpful to the investigation at all. Not something I have heard much at all about though.

Guy confessed and told the entire story to the Sherrif and signed a statement. It is out there on the internet--try a google search.



Ive read the Probable Cause statment from the cops, I've read his conffession. I've followed this whole story from the time it happened. The JSonline has a shitload of stuff on this case and the incident. However one thing you have wrong, he came to the US in Sept. 1975 when he was 7 years old from Laos. He may not have saw any type of combat at all in the military(don't know what his MOS was), however he still had some level of training in the use of weapons.



Sure he had training. Not ever in combat though.
He held some sort of administrative MOS in the NG.

My bad on the age he came here. You are correct.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 10:14:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gordon_freeman:
What Vang did was wrong, but those hunters get a Darwin award for racially slurring a guy with a semi-automatic when they had nothing...

I'm not going to drive to Compton/Oakland and call the local residents lazy ass welfare leeches, and i'm not going to drive to Northern Idaho to let the Aryans know that they are assholes and should've been crushed under a T-34 tank half a century ago...

Words may be sticks and stones, but like in my example, you shouldn't talk shit in a situation like that. Hey look, a random guy on my property with a semi automatic rifle while my rifle is not in my hands, go to hell you (insert racial slur)



Those guys made a slew of horrible tactical decisions and judgements, no question. There is much to learn from this tragedy, especially for Sheeple. That day, sadly, they were. They played the odds that someone wouldn't just open up on them that day and almost always they would have been right. Not that day.

Roll the dice.....

Ooops, snake eyes.

Link Posted: 9/9/2005 10:27:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 10:29:04 AM EDT by Krazny13]
After this incident I refuse to go in the woods without at least 1 30 rd magazine loaded with 77 gr ammo.

As for the racial side to this. I have seen members of that minority repeatedly trespass on my parents property and poach game. The LEOs and the Fish and Game service don't care.

As for Vang, I hope he gets off rather than get a slap on the wrist that the libs will give him. Because he will be dead within 24 hours of leaving that jail, and he knows it. His whole story is BS, but I guess its easier to tell because EVERYONE ELSE IS DEAD.

<== Is so pissed off about the whole thing I am going to stop now before I violate the COC. . . .
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 3:22:35 PM EDT
Just got an update from my inside source. Most of the jurors are from rural Dane County, not Madison city. Based on what has happened in the first couple of days the prosecution is optimistic.

Local sentiment is heavily against Vang, with "Hang Vang" signs in some places.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:48:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GunLvrPHD:
Just got an update from my inside source. Most of the jurors are from rural Dane County, not Madison city. Based on what has happened in the first couple of days the prosecution is optimistic.

Local sentiment is heavily against Vang, with "Hang Vang" signs in some places.

GunLvr



thats a good thing, most of Dane county is pretty conservative. it's the city of madison that makes it seem so liberal.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:36:15 PM EDT
No way this guy walks. This case is so air tight a newbie fresh out of lawschool could win this thing.

1) He shot unarmed people in the back while they were attempting to flee
2) He signed a confession stating he murdered people

Not sure how you get out from under that, pretty sure it's impossible.

If that guy did get off, he'd have to disappear. And I mean leave the country type of disappear, because any deerhunter sees him while armed......

Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:41:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 6:43:50 PM EDT by VTwin60]
I notice you left out the statement of a shot being fired in his direction prior to letting loose on the hunting party. Hang Vang is right, but the hunters were idiots taunting a guy who's armed.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:43:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2005 6:43:50 PM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By VTwin60:
I notice you left out the statement of a shot being fired in his direction prior to letting loose on the hunting party.



That is in question. he says he was shot at first, the survivers say that a shot was fired at him after he opened up. The only things not in question are the ones he admited to, that being shooting 8 people and killing 6, and four of them were shot in the back. From his own mouth.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:46:18 PM EDT
A nice tall tree and a short peice of rope...
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 6:57:42 PM EDT
Was there any proof that the hunters used racial slang, or is it the word of one murderer against a bunch of dead hunters?

Last I knew someone calling you a bad name was no reason to kill him and everyone with him...
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 7:01:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BarnStormer:
Was there any proof that the hunters used racial slang, or is it the word of one murderer against a bunch of dead hunters?

Last I knew someone calling you a bad name was no reason to kill him and everyone with him...


no but if the guy admitted to ambushing 2 people trying to escape (shooting them off an ATV), I have serious reasons to doubt why he would fabricate that part of the story.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 7:52:43 PM EDT
Turn him loose in the middle of gun deer season.

We'll take care of the SOB.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 8:03:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NAM:
Turn him loose in the middle of gun deer season.

We'll take care of the SOB.



I went out the next day after hearing about that. Instead of slinging my Rem 700 I went with my DSA STG58C. Ran into a guy and his two kids up at my Uncle's cabin near Nicolet , you should have seen the look on their face as I was talking to them.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 8:23:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VTwin60:
I went out the next day after hearing about that. Instead of slinging my Rem 700 I went with my DSA STG58C. Ran into a guy and his two kids up at my Uncle's cabin near Nicolet , you should have seen the look on their face as I was talking to them.



I was packing my PolyTech AKS. You shoudl have seen the looks i got.

(30 round mag, of course)
Link Posted: 9/12/2005 7:23:24 PM EDT
Execute him, he's one of those no-good Asians that we tried to leave back in the Turd World.
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