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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 6/6/2001 9:07:53 PM EDT
I read Mr. Cooper's page in Guns & Ammo and for the most part I agree with him. The thing that irratates (sp) me about him is his constant bashing of the 9mm. It seems to me that since the 45 shot from a 1911 is the perfect choice for him that it must be that way for everyone. I don't believe that is the case. I like the 9mm. It is cheap, accurate, lower recoil than the 45, and will certainly work well in a defensive application. It seems Mr Cooper is consumed with the ideal of foot pounds of energy that a round produces. In that case, he needs to throw away all his 45 ammo and 1911s and go buy a Glock or Sig in 357 Sig, since it is a hotter round and the Glock & Sig are better guns.
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 9:11:27 PM EDT
Your subject says it.
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 9:15:07 PM EDT
Even when he ran Gunsite the first time[1977]he was willing to teach other pistols.His wife owns a 38 snub.When he first started everything was FMJ.I think 45 is definetly better than the 9 with ball.Also some people are set in their ways.Your not going to change or convince them.So you might as well listen to there good points and ignore the rest.Then agian that makes you a little like the person your ignoring.Dont it.
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 9:16:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 9:22:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/6/2001 9:37:49 PM EDT by gardenWeasel]
He did come up with the 9mm Super Cooper by using Major George Nonte's idea of trimming down .223 brass. This led to the 9X23. I love the 9X23.
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 9:26:24 PM EDT
How old is Jeff now? I can remember reading a couple of opinions disparaging him, ten or more years ago, and I think some guy was trying to demean Jeff because he was too old.
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 9:28:20 PM EDT
I love the 9x23 too.Witness A 21 shot 357 about the same size as a Commander. One thing Cooper has always preached its the person in combat not the gun.I remember the medal he had made up and sent to a lady.She was ordered in a car at gunpoint.He drove out in the country.When he tried to rape her she resisted.By driving her finger into his eye full tilt.Then she wiped off her finger and walked back to town.
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 9:32:28 PM EDT
Like I said, most stuff that Cooper says I agree with. It just seems like he goes out of his way to bash the 9mm. Besides that, he is a cool old dude and if I had the time and money I would take a pistol course a Gunsite. Also, I think the whole Styer (sp) Scout rifle is a bunch of crapp. Give me a Rem 700 anyday.
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 9:34:12 PM EDT
The only good thing about 9mm is you can carry 18 rounds in a Mag. But now.... let's see, 10rnds of .45 or 10rnds of 9mm. I'll take the .45
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 11:00:48 PM EDT
Most that bash the 9mm have never seen how it works in real life. There is a reason that in the parts of the world where guns are used a lot you will find the 9mm used the most. In fact, most of the spec-op teams, SWAT doggies, and others (who can pick any handgun they want) have gone with the 9mm instead of the .45.
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 11:10:33 PM EDT
HRT uses a 45.Spec ops H&K 45.Most Im familiar with have chosen the 45.
Link Posted: 6/6/2001 11:16:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By darm441: Most that bash the 9mm have never seen how it works in real life.
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What basis do you ground this statement on?
There is a reason that in the parts of the world where guns are used a lot you will find the 9mm used the most.
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What is the reason? What part of the world would that be?
In fact, most of the spec-op teams, SWAT doggies, and others (who can pick any handgun they want) have gone with the 9mm instead of the .45.
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You could'nt back up this bullshit statement if you owned the Chicago Stockyards.
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 3:58:12 AM EDT
[size=5] The bigger the hole, the faster the drain ! [/size=5] 9mickeymouse FMJ has about the same effectiveness as a number 2 pencil.[}:D][}:D][}:D][}:D]
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 4:43:48 AM EDT
Hmm? 9mm vs .45 ? Seems like I've heard this issue kicked around before (coupla thousand times, mebbee). Wonder what they argued about before Cooper & the 1911A1? Mebbee "Broad swords over Sabres?"?
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 4:52:37 AM EDT
BTW, I like most of WHAT Cooper writes (Maybe that's because we're both "old farts"). However, I don't much care for HOW he writes it. The "Royal WE" style seems a bit inappropriate for a man of his background.
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 4:53:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By darm441: Most that bash the 9mm have never seen how it works in real life. There is a reason that in the parts of the world where guns are used a lot you will find the 9mm used the most. In fact, most of the spec-op teams, SWAT doggies, and others (who can pick any handgun they want) have gone with the 9mm instead of the .45.
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The Marine Corps MEUSOC pistol is an RTE-shop worked 1911. Recon bubbas and FAST teams who get the choice get the MEUSOC. LAPD SWAT uses almost the exact same pistol. Don't forget, Colonel Cooper learned his first lessons on the effectiveness of the .45 ACP round at a tough school, Guadalcanal. FMCDH Semper Fidelis Jarhead out. ------------------ “It is undoubtedly true that all citizens capable of bearing arms constitute the reserved military force or reserve militia of the United States as well as the States.” --United States Supreme Court, Presser v. Illinois, 1886
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 4:59:48 AM EDT
Ummmm, Hangfire, The stockyards moved from Chicago to Omaha Nebraska over thirty years ago. Or was that your point? Norm
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 5:25:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 6:30:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The Beer Slayer: [ Ummmm... i've seen the 9mm in action and was totally unimpressed. I picked up patients hit in the upper torso front and back that were walking around. Several we had to make go to the hospital. I've never seen that happen with a .45. They were ALWAYS on the ground. If in fact SWAT went to a 9mm round i would think it was more of a liability issue for under penetration and lack of leathality vs. the .45. 9mm is fine for taget or a small ccw pistol, but for personal defense primary weapon NO WAY!! mike
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Agreed! The 9mm is the absolute minimum in my book and then only in a small (as in Kahr) CCW. I don't carry it very much, only when it's that or nothing. BTW this opinion was formed by using the 9mm round (fortunately never on people). I once shot a rabid racoon with a Corbon 115JHP and it didn't exit an animal maybe 4" wide! This is just one example, I could give others. I would'nt want to depend on this type perfomance against a homicidal 220lb crack addict. As for me, I'll take a 45. Let's face it, bigger holes work better. Even if no expansion occurs it's still a 45.
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 6:37:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By darm441: In fact, most of the spec-op teams, SWAT doggies, and others (who can pick any handgun they want) have gone with the 9mm instead of the .45.
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Marine Recon, LAPD SWAT, FBI SWAT, FBI HRT, SFOD-D, and lots of state and local SWAT teams all use .45 1911s.
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 6:47:08 AM EDT
I for one do NOT want to be peer-reviewing Jeff's experiences with shootings! I think I'll just heed the words of ones who have been there. Besides, I've never heard Jeff say, "If you have a 9mm, trade it for a rock." No, Jeff says (with histrionics) that the .45 is [i]better[/i] for stopping fights. Is there a problem with that fact? Remember too that the best gun for trouble is the one you have with you.
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 7:30:29 AM EDT
i got tired of coopers writting(ramblings) long ago.he repeats himself more than is necessary.he tries to come off as this man of the world ,going on his african safaries,visiting the big shot european gun makers. worst of all his insistance that he invented the scout rifle concept.and trying his best to sell those overpriced styer scouts. boo hoo jeff cooper.
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 8:31:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Crookshanks: How old is Jeff now? I can remember reading a couple of opinions disparaging him, ten or more years ago, and I think some guy was trying to demean Jeff because he was too old.
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He's my father's age -- 81 or 82. They both speak their mind, and don't give two sh*ts about what anyone thinks. Gotta love that.
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 10:55:32 AM EDT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted By darm441: Most that bash the 9mm have never seen how it works in real life. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>What basis do you ground this statement on?<< Years of real world experience. Most 9mm bashers have never seen anybody shot with a 9 (or anything else for that matter. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is a reason that in the parts of the world where guns are used a lot you will find the 9mm used the most. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>What is the reason? What part of the world would that be?<< Pick your place. Anywhere. Including the U.S. 9mm use is greater than .45 use. Reason? Multiple reasons, but the best one is tha tit does teh job asked of fit in an effective and efficient manner. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In fact, most of the spec-op teams, SWAT doggies, and others (who can pick any handgun they want) have gone with the 9mm instead of the .45. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>You could'nt back up this bullshit statement if you owned the Chicago Stockyards.<< Easy to check on. What caliber to most SWAT teams use--9mm. What caliber do most U.S. spec-ops teams use-9mm. What caliber does virtually every police department and military spec-war unit overseas use-9mm. The ones that use the.45 are so rare it is easy to name them. Instead of making BS claims of your own, how about some facts--how many SWAT or Spec-Op teams can you name that still use the .45? I can name over 100 that use the 9mm.
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 10:57:55 AM EDT
>>The Marine Corps MEUSOC pistol is an RTE-shop worked 1911. Recon bubbas and FAST teams who get the choice get the MEUSOC. LAPD SWAT uses almost the exact same pistol.<< Yes, they do. That is why we know about it--it is so outside of the norm and so unusual for somebody to adopt the .45 that it makes news.
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 11:05:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 11:27:33 AM EDT
Hey, be kind to the old guy. Jeff Cooper was my hero when I was coming up in the 1970s. My first pistol was .45 auto and I pooh-poohed everthing else. Remember his saying that a double action auto was "a solution to a problem that doesn't exist"? Man, I was a Cooper cult member first class. Anyway, as I got older I realized that Cooper does indeed know a considerable amount about handgun shooting and basicaly invented combat handgun shooting. I also realized that he doesn't suffer fools, or anyone else for that matter. On the other hand, I've read (or tried to) read some of his books (Fireworks & Another Country) I say tried because his writing style is more than a bit convuluted. I also continue to read, and frankly enjoy, his Commentaries which are on the net, these are basicaly an unedited version of his Guns & Ammo column. Having said all that, I really love the guy in a kind of a way that you love your grumpy old, sour puss, crumudgen grandfather who has little if anything postitive or good to say. Hey, the guy is a legend! And remember that he just about stroked out when the Glock became so popular. And don't forget his disappointment at the adoption of the 10mm's weaker sister, the .40 S&W, by vast a number of cop shops after his Bren Ten flopped. Just don't tell him I actually broke down and bought a 9mm a couple years ago and enjoy shooting it. Heck I even carry it once in awhile.
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 11:30:59 AM EDT
Of course he is, we all know that. Zealot? Yes, right more often than not? Also yes.
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 11:33:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Paul: Someone earlier said it - a hit with a .45 is better with a 9mm. Why not hit them with most you can - how many gun fights need more than 10 shots in a given year any way? The 9mm does recoil a bunch less and is great for smaller hands or those that don't practice as much.
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thatts what i alwasy tell people i have small hands a 1911 is a big pain in the ass for me to shoot accrutly why dont i practice more with it I get a huge flinch know with my glock 17 i can shoot the sob instead of missing him becouse of my monster flinch. besides if rather hit him with a 22 than miss em with a 45 [:D]
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 1:53:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By darm441: Most that bash the 9mm have never seen how it works in real life. There is a reason that in the parts of the world where guns are used a lot you will find the 9mm used the most. In fact, most of the spec-op teams, SWAT doggies, and others (who can pick any handgun they want) have gone with the 9mm instead of the .45.
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Well, I am a SWAT member with over 50 high risk search warrants in the last 18 months. I am forced to carry a 9mm on SWAT duty. However, on patrol where I can carry whatever I want, I carry a-you guessed it-.45 caliber(Glock, of course). Off duty I carry a-you guessed it-.45 cal Kimber. go figure, Ronnie
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 1:54:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By darm441: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted By darm441: Most that bash the 9mm have never seen how it works in real life. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>What basis do you ground this statement on?<< Years of real world experience. Most 9mm bashers have never seen anybody shot with a 9 (or anything else for that matter. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is a reason that in the parts of the world where guns are used a lot you will find the 9mm used the most. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>What is the reason? What part of the world would that be?<< Pick your place. Anywhere. Including the U.S. 9mm use is greater than .45 use. Reason? Multiple reasons, but the best one is tha tit does teh job asked of fit in an effective and efficient manner. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In fact, most of the spec-op teams, SWAT doggies, and others (who can pick any handgun they want) have gone with the 9mm instead of the .45. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>You could'nt back up this bullshit statement if you owned the Chicago Stockyards.<< Easy to check on. What caliber to most SWAT teams use--9mm. What caliber do most U.S. spec-ops teams use-9mm. What caliber does virtually every police department and military spec-war unit overseas use-9mm. The ones that use the.45 are so rare it is easy to name them. Instead of making BS claims of your own, how about some facts--how many SWAT or Spec-Op teams can you name that still use the .45? I can name over 100 that use the 9mm.
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Okay, bigmouth, start naming, cause I am calling bullshit. ronnie
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 2:11:14 PM EDT
I have 3 .45's and 1 9mm. I usually carry a .45, but occasionally carry the 9. I feel that a 124gr JHP +P will usually do the job.
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 2:23:39 PM EDT
I met Jeff Cooper at the last SOF convention. He was wheelchair bound and didn't look like he would be doing many more safaris. His seminar at the convention was on African Safaris. After he got us all psyched up to go on one, he dropped the hammer. "I believe there are only two things appropriate for a man to actually borrow money for: buying a house, and going on a safari". "So how much are we talking?", someone in the audience asked. "Well, you can do it on the cheap for only $10,000 but that just won't do. To do it right, you will need about $30,000". We all slouched down in our seats. I didn't see anyone in the audience who could afford to purchase their clothes at anyplace other than WalMart, much less be able to blow even 5k on a vacation.
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 2:58:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cyrax777: thatts what i alwasy tell people i have small hands a 1911 is a big pain in the ass for me to shoot accrutly why dont i practice more with it I get a huge flinch know with my glock 17 i can shoot the sob instead of missing him becouse of my monster flinch. besides if rather hit him with a 22 than miss em with a 45 [:D]
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Strange, because I have average sized hands (8" from tip of thumb to tip of pinky when spread) and a 1911A1 actually feels too small for me. Even on models with long triggers I can't keep my index finger straight and still have the pad of my fingertip on the trigger. I had to put a set of wraparound Pachmayr grips on to get it feeling even remotely right in my hand, and that didn't do anything for my trigger finger. Now, why is 9mm so popular everywhere but America, and .45 so popular here? Simple, the same reason that the US used .30-06 in its rifles and machine guns, the Brits used .303, the Germans used 8mm Mauser, etc. The "it ain't invented here, so it ain't as good" mindset is universal. Lastly, you hear of units going from 9mm to .45 all the time, but I've never heard of anyone going from .45 to 9mm lately. The military did it because it was forced to, not because 9mm is any better. LE did it because someone gave them the idea that "more rounds = more firepower = better chance of stopping someone" although they generally started with .38Spl or .357 Mag instead of .45. Most of the (admittedly few) cops I've talked with recently used .40S&W, which although not a .45 is still a trend towards bigger holes.
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 9:49:12 PM EDT
--how many SWAT or Spec-Op teams can you name that still use the .45? I can name over 100 that use the 9mm. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Okay, bigmouth, start naming, cause I am calling bullshit.< OK, Just for starters: U.S. SEALs. U.S. Special Forces. NYCPD ESU. British SAS. Australian SAS. German GS9. In fact, virtually every European military and police Spec-ops Unit. State Police SWAT teams from NY, AZ, MI, and PA (may be more, but those are the ones I know of). So, bigmouth, care to name those using the .45??
Link Posted: 6/7/2001 11:11:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By darm441: --how many SWAT or Spec-Op teams can you name that still use the .45? I can name over 100 that use the 9mm. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Okay, bigmouth, start naming, cause I am calling bullshit.< OK, Just for starters: U.S. SEALs. U.S. Special Forces. NYCPD ESU. British SAS. Australian SAS. German GS9. In fact, virtually every European military and police Spec-ops Unit. State Police SWAT teams from NY, AZ, MI, and PA (may be more, but those are the ones I know of). So, bigmouth, care to name those using the .45??
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heh L.A. pd swat, S.O.C.O.M, FBI HRT thats all i can name from the top of my head hell the fbi uses 1911's!
Link Posted: 6/8/2001 12:10:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/8/2001 12:10:15 AM EDT by uglygun]
9mm FMJ or 45 FMJ, I will definitely go with a 45 FMJ without a doubt. 9mm hp or 45cal. hp, I'd go 45hp again. But I'd adopt a bit of the 9mm philosophy of "light and fast", a 185grn +P hollow point where it's velocity helps the expansion process take it's course yet it's still got that weight and diameter advantage if the hollow point should do something stupid like clog on some clothing. That's what I like least about the 9mm, tiny little hollow point cavities when compared to the 45ACP. The 9mm needs velocity to make those hollow points expand and as little as those cavities are I don't know how well they will stand up to clothing unless you can ensure they are delivered with enough velocity to do their magic regardless, 357Sig is the one that gets me all hot and bothered though I gotta admit. As for Cooper, the guy regularly drives me batty and the Steyr Scout rifle was the beginning of it all. He'll do his best to sell you on the Scout and point out all of it's benefits but I hardly ever see him mention the benefit to using a 9mm or what it offers to a user. The least he could do is recommend the best loading for the 9mm as he sees it, interesting stuff on the 9x23mm yet why have I never heard him mention it. Surely he doesn't stick to just 230grn hardball for a defensive pistol, it's been quite a long time since I've read his articles but I'd be interested in knowing if anybody has ever seen him make mention of his favorite 45ACP defensive loading. From the commentaries I've read I almost feel Cooper is biased enough that he would go for a 45 ACP hardball 230grainer over a 9mm 125grain +P hp, faced with that situation I'd choose the bullet that stands the most chance to impact hardest and create the most damage and I feel the 9mm would be at an advantage in that situation. I've never seen Cooper go on at any great length about something and he manages to stay just brief enough I don't think I ever will see him acknowledge something like a 9mm hollow point as opposed to a 45ACP FMJ just so he could confirm for us his bias, opps I mean preferrence. I seem to recall him really bashing the 224Boz when it was coming out and making headlines, he seemed to completely overlook it's ability to hole punch through soft body armour. What it did after it punched a hole might not be too impressive but I don't think that was the intent behind the round. A concealable armour hole puncher that shoots flat, how easy is it to recognize it for what it is? Seemed pretty simple to me.
Link Posted: 6/8/2001 12:17:07 AM EDT
Hey folks, Just my .02, but the 9mm is a very load-senitive round. However, some of the newer mid-weight high power JHP rounds are closing the gap on the .45 in effectiveness. Some even approach the lower ballistics of the .357 magnum, when the latter comes from a 4" barrel. I own both a Springfield "Loaded" model .45 and a Beretta m92FS, and the Beretta is what I prefer. It feels better in my hand and I am not too nutsy about "cocked and locked" carry. The 1911 (as well as Glocks) also lack second strike ability, something that is not often mentioned. As for the capacity issue, I have 8 pre-ban mags for the Beretta and intend on keeping 15 rounds in my gun (not 10) for a long time to come. Also,one thing that can not be argued is that the 9mm can pack a larger number of rounds in a similar-sized gun, a definite tactical advantage in that one has to manipulate less in the event of a prolonged encounter. Also, how many .45 fans out there tote around a couple of spare mags in the middle of the night, while grabbing the flashlight, to check on a strange and suspicious noise (I know some smartass will post that he does, but you see my point. [Hope your pajamas have mag pouches in them;) ]). One thing about the 9mm is that it is cheaper (as mentioned previously) to shoot and one can practice more with it. I remember reading a magazine article about this subject and recall a description of a foriegn SWAT operator competing and getting a high score with his issue 9mm Sig. (faster and more accurately than the fellas with super-tuned .45's!). I hate to break it down to economics,especially when your life is at stake, but the fact is that you can train more for the same amount of money. I like the 9mm, if stoked with the right types of loads, better than the .45 for reasons other than pure stopping power. If you think about it, this whole 9mm vs. .45 stopping power thing is a mute point. The truth is that most autopistol cartidges are dismal stoppers when compared to rifles and shotguns (with slug rounds). If you want stopping power, get a mini-FAL with a 10"-12" barrel like thoe ones in the in the Shotgun News (and get a tax stamp for it), or a nice HOlland & Holland double, for that matter:) I don't want to rile up all the .45er's, but just how much MORE faith do you put in the extra tenth of an inch in diameter and corresponding cross-sectional density. (and compare that with a 20 gauge [3/4 oz. @1600f/s.], another somewhat maligned gun for home defense in some circles, but one I have no problem with using). Also factor in the hydrostatic effect [which makes the .357 mag a stopping power "king"], which is reduced by the lower velocity of the .45 caliber projectile, and you see my point.
Link Posted: 6/8/2001 2:05:34 AM EDT
i am a big 9mm fan but also enjoy shooting my 1911s.i must say this in defence of the grip size of the 1911 the grip of a 1911 single stack is actuarly much smaller than a beretta 92fs.also the 1911 pistol is much flatter.i think the drawback of the 1911 is it can be harder to learn to shoot .you must have a firm grip to diengage the grip safty.once mastered the 1911 is on extreamly acurate handgun.and the recoil compared to the 9mm is not really more it just pushes you more. p.s. i still think coop is full of himself.
Link Posted: 6/8/2001 10:59:34 PM EDT
>>heh L.A. pd swat, S.O.C.O.M, FBI HRT thats all i can name from the top of my head<< Exactly. The use of the .45 (particularly in some version of the 1911) is so rare and unusual that most of us can name all of the major outfits using it, while the 9mm is so common among SWAT and spec-ops people it is considered teh standard, and nobody pays much attentio to it. If it wasn't doing thejob adequately, they wouldn't keep using it.
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