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Posted: 9/27/2011 8:07:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2011 8:08:14 PM EDT by Deej86]
Back in the day, long before I was born, my dad bought a brand new, off the showroom floor 1977 Jeep CJ-7. Not long after taking ownership, he was rear-ended and rolled it.

Ever since then, he's contended that Jeep "has gone to hell ever since Chrysler took over." That's his opinion and all that jazz, but I have liked Jeeps produced past the CJ my whole life. YJ's, TJ's, JKs...my brother in law has an XK. (Currently for reference, my dad has a 2009 Chevy Silverado and a 2009 GMC Sierra(company DD).

So are there any of you that are Jeep purists like my dad? Cause I know a quite of a few people here on arfcom have TJ's, YJ's and JKs.

Just curious.
Link Posted: 9/27/2011 8:45:43 PM EDT
It is my opinion that the jeep stopped being a jeep when the TJ came in with the coil springs. All of the models have their good and bad points but I like the simplicity of the CJ's and the YJ's. In my opinion, chrysler should have stuck the LA series and magnum series V-8's in the YJ from the factory.
Nothing wrong with the TJ but I hated how the interior and dash started to get "car-ish". I have not owned anything newer than a TJ so that is where I stop.
Link Posted: 9/27/2011 8:48:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2011 8:48:55 PM EDT by Paps-Zapf]
The newer jeeps will not die of rust cancer like the older ones. I had a 1977 Cherokee and within 2 years the fender flares began to rust away!
Link Posted: 9/27/2011 9:03:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/27/2011 9:21:34 PM EDT
I think Jeep lost it's way when it made Jeeps without solid axles.

But lets face it, Chrysler rode AMC technology for at least another 15 years. There's nothing prior to the early 2000's that wasn't AMC tech.

The only 'Jeeps' I really don't believe in are the Patriot and Compass. Those are rebadged Dodge's.

(I've owned XJ's, ZJ's, KJ's, and TJ's.... Still own the latter...)
Link Posted: 9/27/2011 9:32:49 PM EDT
All Jeeps built after the one that you once owned are crap.
Link Posted: 9/27/2011 9:40:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/27/2011 9:46:29 PM EDT
Real Jeeps died with the TJ in my opinion. Not saying the JK isn't a great off road vehicle because it really is a great rig, it just lacks that true Jeep feel to me.

And as stated before, AMC's influence existed pretty heavily in the "Chrysler" era Jeeps. The YJ was AMC for instance, XJs were AMC as well, and they ran into 2001.

And AMC lives on to this day....as AM General.
Link Posted: 9/27/2011 11:31:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Keekleberrys:
Love my XJ. I dont know why anyone would want an all leaf suspension. I despise leaf springs.


Leaf springs are simple and they work well enough. I would be more concerned about having a frameless unit body than leaf springs.
Link Posted: 9/27/2011 11:43:22 PM EDT
I think that in many aspects Jeeps have improved over the years. But in my own opinion what changed was that when the CJ series was finally discontinued, the rugged utility and no-nonsense barebones simplicity on which Jeep's reputation was built seemed to die along with it. In the CJ's place we got the lowered and somewhat car-like YJ, then the softer riding and even more car-like TJ, and finally the family sedan-like JK. Amenities like hard tops, A/C, automatic transmissions, cupholders and now even power windows have become increasingly more common.
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 12:05:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Boomer:
I think that in many aspects Jeeps have improved over the years. But in my own opinion what changed was that when the CJ series was finally discontinued, the rugged utility and no-nonsense barebones simplicity on which Jeep's reputation was built seemed to die along with it. In the CJ's place we got the lowered and somewhat car-like YJ, then the softer riding and even more car-like TJ, and finally the family sedan-like JK. Amenities like hard tops, A/C, automatic transmissions, cupholders and now even power windows have become increasingly more common.


All of those options were available and fairly common during the later AMC years. Except cupholders. Nobody got cupholders, not even the Grand Wagoneers.
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 6:13:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2011 6:25:51 AM EDT by TecRsq]
I have owned a 53-3A, 95 YJ, 3 separate TJ's and ............

We are now, here at the below 80 CJ7, all the Jeep feel and tradition, full function over form in its existence and the capabilities that few vehicles can equal.

Funny how some of us go back to the simpler things, things that have been proven and evolved over a very long period of time.

ETA... Jeep as a whole went down, when successfully traversing the Rubicon was no longer a mandate prior to production of all models.



Link Posted: 9/28/2011 6:21:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TexTJ209:
Originally Posted By Boomer:
I think that in many aspects Jeeps have improved over the years. But in my own opinion what changed was that when the CJ series was finally discontinued, the rugged utility and no-nonsense barebones simplicity on which Jeep's reputation was built seemed to die along with it. In the CJ's place we got the lowered and somewhat car-like YJ, then the softer riding and even more car-like TJ, and finally the family sedan-like JK. Amenities like hard tops, A/C, automatic transmissions, cupholders and now even power windows have become increasingly more common.


All of those options were available and fairly common during the later AMC years. Except cupholders. Nobody got cupholders, not even the Grand Wagoneers.


A/C was very uncommon in the CJs. Power windows were never available in them. Automatics and hardtops represented a small minority of production. When was the last time a Universal Jeep could be ordered and purchased brand new sans doors and top? Point is, that the Universal Jeeps have become increasingly refined and amenity laden at the expense of sheer utility and simplicity is not even debatable. Yes, it could be said that the trend began towards the end of the CJs reign, but it is obvious that it was most palpable and rapidly accelerated with the introduction of the Wrangler.
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 6:27:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TecRsq:



Nice! Our Jeeps could be twins, with mine have grown a little "taller", LOL.

Link Posted: 9/28/2011 6:27:29 AM EDT
I had an XJ, ran it to 175K miles and it still ran great. A couple prblems that were weird like a broken exhaust manifold, but nothing serious. Great vehicle off road. Now I hav a 2011 Grand Cherokee and like it. My only problem with Chrysler was the bailout and I almost did not buy a new one.
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 6:27:31 AM EDT
I have a couple CJs and like them.

I like the YJ just as much as long as the grille is swapped out for a CJ style grille (not a fan of the square headlights).

I like the TJ just fine.

I do not like the JK. They are neutered, but let's face it - that's where pretty much all vehicles are going....


I don't know enough about the ZJ, XJ, WJ to comment...
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 6:31:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Deej86:

Ever since then, he's contended that Jeep "has gone to hell ever since Chrysler took over."


So are there any of you that are Jeep purists like my dad?

Just curious.




Lots of Purists feel that way.

Jeep ceased to be a Jeep after the ____ model.

Friend of mine has a beautifully restored Willy's..."Ain't no Jeeps made after the Willy's"

Another riding partner owns a CJ5 "Hell man, real Jeeps are narrow and have leaf springs"


I think Jeep will kill/is killing off the Jeep brand by turning the Wrangler into a soccer mom/family car. In their drive to increase market share and broaden the consumer demographic for the Wrangler, they're successfully pussifying an icon.
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 9:10:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2011 9:11:01 AM EDT by Keekleberrys]
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 9:12:02 AM EDT
I like XJ's too. I tried talking my dad into one but he told me brake jobs on them you "have to go through Chrysler, and they're $900."
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 9:15:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 9:17:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Keekleberrys:
Originally Posted By Deej86:
I like XJ's too. I tried talking my dad into one but he told me brake jobs on them you "have to go through Chrysler, and they're $900."


Done plenty of brake jobs on mine. Don't know where that's coming from.


I think $900 is the figure my dad hears from people about auto repairs. He once claimed an alternator on a Mercury Mystique was $900 to replace.
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 9:23:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2011 9:23:53 AM EDT by Boomer]
Originally Posted By Keekleberrys:
Originally Posted By Boomer:
Originally Posted By Keekleberrys:
Love my XJ. I dont know why anyone would want an all leaf suspension. I despise leaf springs.


Leaf springs are simple and they work well enough. I would be more concerned about having a frameless unit body than leaf springs.


It's already like driving a sheet of plywood why compound it


I've driven enough XJs to know that they don't ride any better than my CJ. So why go with the more complex, failure prone suspension?



I'm ok with the lack of "frame" if it means I am not the guy with the tent:


At least until the body starts tearing apart at the seams.
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 9:26:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Deej86:
Originally Posted By Keekleberrys:
Originally Posted By Deej86:
I like XJ's too. I tried talking my dad into one but he told me brake jobs on them you "have to go through Chrysler, and they're $900."


Done plenty of brake jobs on mine. Don't know where that's coming from.


I think $900 is the figure my dad hears from people about auto repairs. He once claimed an alternator on a Mercury Mystique was $900 to replace.


Assuming worse case scenario:
new front rotors ~$120
front and rear pads ~$120

$240 max unless you've destroyed the axles, hubs, lines, etc.. Generally speaking I can install new pads all around for about $85 (04 Rubicon using Wagner thermo quiet pads).
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 9:27:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 9:56:46 AM EDT
Deej,

As other posters have pointed out, it's always been that way with Jeep fans. ("None of them new ones are as good as the one I own")

But, it really started with the YJ Wrangler. It was seen as much more car like than the CJ, and the CJ was an Icon since it was manufactured relatively unchanged for so long. The 91-06 Fuel Injected 4.0 in Wranglers is probably one of the most bulletproof engines ever......
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 12:23:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2011 12:28:09 PM EDT by TexTJ209]
Originally Posted By Boomer:
Originally Posted By TexTJ209:
Originally Posted By Boomer:
I think that in many aspects Jeeps have improved over the years. But in my own opinion what changed was that when the CJ series was finally discontinued, the rugged utility and no-nonsense barebones simplicity on which Jeep's reputation was built seemed to die along with it. In the CJ's place we got the lowered and somewhat car-like YJ, then the softer riding and even more car-like TJ, and finally the family sedan-like JK. Amenities like hard tops, A/C, automatic transmissions, cupholders and now even power windows have become increasingly more common.


All of those options were available and fairly common during the later AMC years. Except cupholders. Nobody got cupholders, not even the Grand Wagoneers.


A/C was very uncommon in the CJs. Power windows were never available in them. Automatics and hardtops represented a small minority of production. When was the last time a Universal Jeep could be ordered and purchased brand new sans doors and top? Point is, that the Universal Jeeps have become increasingly refined and amenity laden at the expense of sheer utility and simplicity is not even debatable. Yes, it could be said that the trend began towards the end of the CJs reign, but it is obvious that it was most palpable and rapidly accelerated with the introduction of the Wrangler.


CJs weren't the only AMC Jeep.

But yes, the Jeep has been incredibly stripped of it's once utilitarian and basic nature. Used to be the accessories you could order direct from Jeep were things like PTO driven shredders, backhoe attachments, a ditch witch(awesome.), and winches. Now it's 20" rims, chrome trim and MP3 players.




If you wanted to get technical, the utilitarian side of Jeeps does live on in this vehicle here. The AMC/Jeep High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle . Designed by the descendant of Jeep's General Product division (AM General) in 1979 while AM General was still a part of AMC/Jeep.
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 5:49:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rob78:
Originally Posted By Deej86:
Originally Posted By Keekleberrys:
Originally Posted By Deej86:
I like XJ's too. I tried talking my dad into one but he told me brake jobs on them you "have to go through Chrysler, and they're $900."


Done plenty of brake jobs on mine. Don't know where that's coming from.


I think $900 is the figure my dad hears from people about auto repairs. He once claimed an alternator on a Mercury Mystique was $900 to replace.


Assuming worse case scenario:
new front rotors ~$120
front and rear pads ~$120

$240 max unless you've destroyed the axles, hubs, lines, etc.. Generally speaking I can install new pads all around for about $85 (04 Rubicon using Wagner thermo quiet pads).


Rotors are about 20 each. Pads are about 35 a set for an xj
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 5:52:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By captblue1:
Originally Posted By rob78:
Originally Posted By Deej86:
Originally Posted By Keekleberrys:
Originally Posted By Deej86:
I like XJ's too. I tried talking my dad into one but he told me brake jobs on them you "have to go through Chrysler, and they're $900."


Done plenty of brake jobs on mine. Don't know where that's coming from.


I think $900 is the figure my dad hears from people about auto repairs. He once claimed an alternator on a Mercury Mystique was $900 to replace.


Assuming worse case scenario:
new front rotors ~$120
front and rear pads ~$120

$240 max unless you've destroyed the axles, hubs, lines, etc.. Generally speaking I can install new pads all around for about $85 (04 Rubicon using Wagner thermo quiet pads).


Rotors are about 20 each. Pads are about 35 a set for an xj


That's cheap.

Cheapest decent rotors I can find for the rubi were $50/per. I don't buy shitty brake pads, but yeah you can get them much cheaper.
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 5:54:43 PM EDT
jeep quit being jeep with the compass, and reforming the "trail rating" to include that piece of junk
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 10:56:54 PM EDT
You guys can rag on jeep for making softer cars but we wouldent have jeep at all if they hadent built and sold those. Think of it this way, Jeep has to sell some of those soft soccer mom suvs to be able to produce and sell the solid axle offroader we all love.

The 2012 JK is a huge improvement over the 07-11 model with a much better motor. The rubicon is a niche vehicle. Its hard to find something with similar capabilities off road and features for the price.

The JK is great, its not perfect but its a great Jeep just as capable if not much more capable than the old CJ-7s (in their stock form).
Link Posted: 9/28/2011 11:29:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:09:09 AM EDT
We (wife and I) bought our very first Jeep in May 2010. It's a 2010 Wrangler JK with a rag top. We bought our second Jeep in November, a 2011 Wrangler Unlimited JK with a hardtop. Having had a lot of friends with Jeeps in my 50 some years I really don't think the new ones are any less capable than the old ones...Hell, probably better all around.

Oh, and I am currently shopping for a 2012 Rubicon Wrangler Unlimited, waiting for the new colors Black Forest and Winter Chill to become available before I make a decision.



Bryan
Link Posted: 9/30/2011 8:25:50 PM EDT
I've owned a '79 CJ-7 since 1987 - I was a junior in HS when I bought it. I'd trade it for a comparable TJ or JK in a heart beat.

I am not a "nostaglia" kinda guy.


Brian
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 9:19:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By N_FL_Mountaineer:
Having had a lot of friends with Jeeps in my 50 some years I really don't think the new ones are any less capable than the old ones...Hell, probably better all around.


They are but I won't say that out loud because my flat fender will get mad.

"New" Jeeps are more complex for certain but also more jeepable right out of the box and better all around performers.

Eyeballing a '95 right now.
Link Posted: 10/1/2011 10:45:18 PM EDT
Later CJ's were crap starting in 1981 i think.

The early YJ's were crap up until they got the AX15 transmission.

TJ's started out good then had some less than desirable problems in later years like the infamous head cracking problems and the craptastic 6 speed transmission.

The new JK has what seems to be good axles and t-case but the rest of the jeep sucks.

Link Posted: 10/2/2011 4:36:32 PM EDT
I think that there was some improvement, along with some disappointment in the Chrysler years. The Patriot, Compass, and Liberty are all garbage and AMC would never have put out such colossal pieces of shit while they owned Jeep. For whatever reason, Chrysler also felt the need to put a minivan engine in a Wrangler. The death of the 4.0 liter is also a major blow IMO because of how long it was around, how rugged and stout it is, and just how good of an engine it was overall. This BS that Chrysler couldn't get it to keep up with mileage or emissions standards is shit IMO; they just didn't want an engine to still be around that they didn't design and couldn't take credit for. Also Chrysler taking credit for the Grand Cherokee is shit; that vehicle was about 90% done when AMC was sold off by the frogs to Chrysler and would have been out a few years earlier than when it did finally debut, but nope, gotta make more soccer mom vans! Well fuck that's about what they're turning Jeeps into so whatever.

However, on the plus side, Chrysler is a bigger company than AMC and has more to devote to come up with improvements, such as the 4.0 HO straight six, and the updated 97-01 Cherokee front clip and interior, which IMO is way better than the 84-96 AMC-designed interior. And having rebuilt and currently own a 79 Jeep J10 with the AMC 360, I can say that while those V8's were good, strong engines, they have their quirks and the LA-series V8 is a better engine.

Anyway, yes I am a purist who loves old AMC-era Jeeps, but these are just my opinions.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 6:34:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2011 6:36:00 PM EDT by Keekleberrys]
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 8:05:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmaLiteM15KevinZ:
For whatever reason, Chrysler also felt the need to put a minivan engine in a Wrangler.



Economics.

Scrappage and re work rates were high and climbing due to worn out tooling.

Cheaper to drop an existing mini van engine between the frame rails than to make all new tooling for the 4.0

The tooling was refurbed and adapted from the 258 line,which was reworked old 232 tooling which was supplemented by tooling cobbled together from existing stocks of other discontinued engine lines.
Link Posted: 10/4/2011 2:30:33 AM EDT
I bought my daughter an '04 Grand Cherokee 4x4 with the H.O. 4.7. I think it is a worthy successor to the Grand Wagoneer....

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 10/4/2011 5:10:08 AM EDT
I don't know if I'd say Chrysler "ruined" Jeep but they are a big part of the reason that I've not bought one.

That said, given the choice between a brand new Rubicon (or even Sport) TJ vs. a brand new CJ, I'd take the TJ. I'd much rather have full injection and coil spring suspension over a carb and leaf spring setup
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