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Posted: 11/16/2015 1:26:12 PM EDT

Hello everyone,


I found this interesting pic on the Internet (I'm not sure where it came from, but probably it first appeared on a Japanese monthly magazine called Gun).






This pic shows some early/late prototypes of Howa Type 64 rifle, a service rifle for the Japan Self-Defense Forces since 1964.

 

 
 
Link Posted: 11/16/2015 1:29:11 PM EDT
[#1]
Ooooh, neat, thanks.  That is one ugly sumbitch, though.
Link Posted: 11/16/2015 1:29:55 PM EDT
[#2]

1st (top) one is "Type R1" (R stands for Rifle), designed by Mitsuo Tsunose of the Japanese Defense Agency in October 1957. It was the first experimental rifle designed in Japan after WW2. Both DI and piston operating system were considered in the plan, but it was produced using only piston system in March 1958. It weighed about 5.6 kg (12.3 lbs). Its external design was obviously based on ArmaLite Hollywood AR-10, but the trigger system was designed based on Spanish CETME rifle's one.






2nd one is "Type R2", designed by Kenzou Iwashita (who also designed Type 99 Arisaka rifle). This rifle was designed in October 1957 and produced in March 1958, concurrently with Type R1. It used delayed recoil operation, not gas operation as Type R1. This rifle weighed about 4.7 kg (10.4 lbs). It seems like this model’s design was also heavily inspired by AR-10.






* Type R3 (not showed in the pic) was designed by Tsunose based on Type R1, produced in March 1959, and weighed about 3.6 kg (7.9 lbs). However, its rate of fire was too fast, and thus it had poor accuracy on full-automatic firing. Also this rifle once had a catastrophic failure after firing only two or three rounds.






3rd one is "Type R3 Modified", an enhanced/reinforced version of lightweight Type R3. This rifle was developed focusing on semi-automatic firing, and making full-automatic firing more controllable. It weighed 4.1 kg (9.0 lbs), since it has more durability.




 

 
Link Posted: 11/16/2015 1:30:07 PM EDT
[#3]
Some of those are just embarrassing

Top one looks like an ARFAL
Link Posted: 11/16/2015 1:30:17 PM EDT
[#4]
"If the Swiss can start out with ugly shit, so can we!"
Link Posted: 11/16/2015 1:31:43 PM EDT
[#5]
Meanwhile at Taurus...
Link Posted: 11/16/2015 1:34:37 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
1st (top) one is "Type R1" (R stands for Rifle), designed by Mitsuo Tsunose of the Japanese Defense Agency in October 1957. It was the first experimental rifle designed in Japan after WW2. Both DI and piston operating system were considered in the plan, but it was produced using only piston system in March 1958. It weighed about 5.6 kg (12.3 lbs). Its external design was obviously based on ArmaLite Hollywood AR-10, but the trigger system was designed based on Spanish CETME rifle's one.
View Quote


That would be a pretty good workout.  Looks like it has a ginormous milled receiver.
Link Posted: 11/16/2015 1:37:03 PM EDT
[#7]
The bottom one is a sort of want.
Link Posted: 11/16/2015 1:39:14 PM EDT
[#8]

* Type R4 does not exist, because a pronunciation of "four" in Japanese is "shi", that's a same sound as "death (shi)" in Japanese. They deliberately avoided to use this number.


* Type R5 is another enhanced version of Type R3.







4th one is "Type R6A", the first prototype rifle which directly leads to Type 64 (note the bipod added). This rifle was produced in November 1960, using delayed recoil operation, and weighed 4.78 kg (10.54 lbs). The accuracy on full-automatic firing was improved by introducing a pistol grip and the rate-reducing system.







5th (bottom) one is "Type R6K (K stands for Kenzou)". Advised by Kenzou Iwashita, the hammer was greatly modified. It was changed from the pivoted hammer to the linear one which doubles as the rate-reducing system. As a result, the rate of fire increased from 400 RPM to 450 RPM, the reliability on operating was improved, and the weight decreased to 4.44 kg (9.79 lbs).


 
Link Posted: 11/16/2015 1:55:37 PM EDT
[#9]

Also there were some other prototypes:










- Type R6B: Produced in September 1961, based on R6A. There were three variants of this rifle.



- Type R6B-1: A lightweight version of R6A, weighed 4.4 kg (9.7 lbs). The rate-reducing system was improved.



- Type R6B-2: An enhanced version of R6B-1, produced in March 1962. The rate-reducing system was improved again.



- Type R6B-3 (Type Official I): An enhanced version of R6B-2, produced in July 1962. Two rifles were delivered to the Defense Agency and tested.



* Type R6C does not exist. Its name was reserved for variants of R6B.



- Type R6D (Type Official II): Developed in October 1962, with an order from the Defense Agency for testing. It had a bigger rate-reducing system for better reliability, and the weight increased to 4.7 kg (10.4 lbs). However, the rate-reducing system was too complex and caused many problems.



- Type R6E (Type Official II Modified): An enhanced version of R6K, produced in February 1963.



- Type R6E Modified (Type Official III): A lightweight/enhanced version of R6E, weighed 4.27 kg (9.41 lbs), produced in May 1963. In order to make it more adaptable to after-modification, this rifle was manufactured in two divisions, Official III-1 and Official III-2. It went through many overall tests from May 1963 to August 1964.
 
 
Link Posted: 11/16/2015 2:07:03 PM EDT
[#10]
Those are badass.

Do the top two have folding stocks?
Link Posted: 11/16/2015 2:22:50 PM EDT
[#11]
Very interesting. Jien, thanks for the translations.
Link Posted: 11/16/2015 2:31:29 PM EDT
[#12]
Cool history.

Good find.
Link Posted: 11/16/2015 2:32:29 PM EDT
[#13]
Link Posted: 11/16/2015 2:36:11 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Also there were some other prototypes:


- Type R6B: Produced in September 1961, based on R6A. There were three variants of this rifle.
- Type R6B-1: A lightweight version of R6A, weighed 4.4 kg (9.7 lbs). The rate-reducing system was improved.
- Type R6B-2: An enhanced version of R6B-1, produced in March 1962. The rate-reducing system was improved again.
- Type R6B-3 (Type Official I): An enhanced version of R6B-2, produced in July 1962. Two rifles were delivered to the Defense Agency and tested.
* Type R6C does not exist. Its name was reserved for variants of R6B.
- Type R6D (Type Official II): Developed in October 1962, with an order from the Defense Agency for testing. It had a bigger rate-reducing system for better reliability, and the weight increased to 4.7 kg (10.4 lbs). However, the rate-reducing system was too complex and caused many problems.
- Type R6E (Type Official II Modified): An enhanced version of R6K, produced in February 1963.
- Type R6E Modified (Type Official III): A lightweight/enhanced version of R6E, weighed 4.27 kg (9.41 lbs), produced in May 1963. In order to make it more adaptable to after-modification, this rifle was manufactured in two divisions, Official III-1 and Official III-2. It went through many overall tests from May 1963 to August 1964.    
View Quote



Thank you for translating...
Link Posted: 11/16/2015 2:38:39 PM EDT
[#15]
It used a downloaded 7.62 x 51 round. Not a standard one.
Link Posted: 11/16/2015 2:42:29 PM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 11/16/2015 2:47:03 PM EDT
[#17]
That R6K looks sweet!
Link Posted: 11/16/2015 2:56:11 PM EDT
[#18]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Those are badass.



Do the top two have folding stocks?
View Quote




 
I believe they don't. The paratrooper version of Japanese Type 89 rifle has a folding stock, though.
Link Posted: 11/16/2015 2:59:40 PM EDT
[#19]
Ever seen the Japanese Type 5?  It's a wartime reverse engineered Battlefield Capture Garand chambered in 7.7 with a capacity of 10 loaded by two stripper clips.  Only a few prototypes were made, the National Firearms Museum has one.

Link Posted: 11/16/2015 3:02:59 PM EDT
[#20]

On September 7th 1964, Type Official III-2 (Type R6E Modified) was adopted by the Defense Agency as Type 64 7.62 mm rifle. However, in fact, the Defense Agency was planning to purchase and adopt the U.S. M14 rifle, because the development of Type 64 was running late, and there were numerous retired M14s which had been replaced by M16 rifles.
























Howa manufactured AR-18/180s from 1967 to 1974 under the license from ArmaLite, and a few of them were delivered to the Defense Agency for evaluation. After it was revealed that the Provisional IRA illegally obtained and used many Howa-made AR-180s, Howa ceased manufacturing AR-18/180s. However, Howa utilized the experience and the knowledge obtained from producing them for developing the new small-caliber rifles. In 1989, Howa HR-16 (HR stands for Howa Rifle), developed based on AR-18, was officially adopted as Type 89 5.56 mm rifle. After that, most of Type 64s were replaced with Type 89s in the Ground SDF. In the Maritime and Air SDF, they are still armed with Type 64s.


















 
Link Posted: 11/16/2015 4:44:32 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
View Quote


All great info! Thanks Jien.

Some very interesting looking weapons.
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 2:45:16 PM EDT
[#22]


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Ever seen the Japanese Type 5?  It's a wartime reverse engineered Battlefield Capture Garand chambered in 7.7 with a capacity of 10 loaded by two stripper clips.  Only a few prototypes were made, the National Firearms Museum has one.





http://www.weaponeer.net/forum/uploads/Tikiman001/images/2009-03-03_172039_garand_and_type_5.jpg
View Quote





 
Yes! I've read about that before.


It is called "Type 4" in Japan (and I know it's also called Type 5 in the U.S.)







Japan's early experimental semi-automatic rifles (made circa 1934) were designed based on the Pedersen rifle and CZ ZH-29 rifle. They were manufactured under license from Pedersen and CZ, but chambered in Japanese 6.5 mm. They were almost completed and ready to deploy, but the plan was cancelled due to a lack of productivity caused by the Second Sino-Japanese War.







Type 4 rifle was developed near the end of the WW2. However, Tsunose stated that 7.7 mm ammo was too powerless to operate the bolt, which originally designed for high-power .30-06 ammo. An interesting fact is that Type 4 didn't use en-bloc clips, so the rifle didn't make a "ping" sound when the ammo was all spent.







This webpage has some photos showing Japanese-made ZH-29 / Pedersen / Garand.


 
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 2:55:08 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
1st (top) one is "Type R1" (R stands for Rifle), designed by Mitsuo Tsunose of the Japanese Defense Agency in October 1957. It was the first experimental rifle designed in Japan after WW2. Both DI and piston operating system were considered in the plan, but it was produced using only piston system in March 1958. It weighed about 5.6 kg (12.3 lbs). Its external design was obviously based on ArmaLite Hollywood AR-10, but the trigger system was designed based on Spanish CETME rifle's one.


2nd one is "Type R2", designed by Kenzou Iwashita (who also designed Type 99 Arisaka rifle). This rifle was designed in October 1957 and produced in March 1958, concurrently with Type R1. It used delayed recoil operation, not gas operation as Type R1. This rifle weighed about 4.7 kg (10.4 lbs). It seems like this model’s design was also heavily inspired by AR-10.


* Type R3 (not showed in the pic) was designed by Tsunose based on Type R1, produced in March 1959, and weighed about 3.6 kg (7.9 lbs). However, its rate of fire was too fast, and thus it had poor accuracy on full-automatic firing. Also this rifle once had a catastrophic failure after firing only two or three rounds.


3rd one is "Type R3 Modified", an enhanced/reinforced version of lightweight Type R3. This rifle was developed focusing on semi-automatic firing, and making full-automatic firing more controllable. It weighed 4.1 kg (9.0 lbs), since it has more durability.
   
View Quote


Damn, where have you been hiding for the last 2 years? Some of the most informative posts I've seen around here, and all in a GD thread no less.

Link Posted: 11/18/2015 2:56:55 PM EDT
[#24]
Neat thread, thanks!
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 2:58:09 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Hello everyone,


I found this interesting pic on the Internet (I'm not sure where it came from, but probably it first appeared on a Japanese monthly magazine called Gun).


http://jisakujien.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Howa-Type-64-Prototypes.jpg



This pic shows some early/late prototypes of Howa Type 64 rifle, a service rifle for the Japan Self-Defense Forces since 1964.      
View Quote



Neat picture.  And it also explains why some of the anime weapons looks so damn funky, 'cause they actually built them funky.  
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 7:09:38 PM EDT
[#26]

Recently, the Japanese MOD (organized in 2007) has purchased HK G36, 416/417, and FN SCAR-L/H for some experiment purposes. Furthermore, the MOD has ordered new prototype rifles from Howa. It’s obvious that they are developing a next-gen service rifle now. Members of the Special Forces Group (SFGp, the only SOF in Japan) are already armed with M4A1 carbines (these were FMS from the U.S.) Also they are allegedly deploying HK MP7s and unknown HK rifles.







I hope you enjoyed this story.


 
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 7:15:22 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
* Type R4 does not exist, because a pronunciation of "four" in Japanese is "shi", that's a same sound as "death (shi)" in Japanese. They deliberately avoided to use this number.
View Quote


Why wouldn't "death" be an appropriate name for a rifle?
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 7:15:26 PM EDT
[#28]
Thanks Jien!  you made this thread alot more informative than it would have been.

very interesting stuff.
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 7:20:35 PM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
On September 7th 1964, Type Official III-2 (Type R6E Modified) was adopted by the Defense Agency as Type 64 7.62 mm rifle. However, in fact, the Defense Agency was planning to purchase and adopt the U.S. M14 rifle, because the development of Type 64 was running late, and there were numerous retired M14s which had been replaced by M16 rifles.


<a href="https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%95%E3%82%A1%E3%82%A4%E3%83%AB:Type_64_Rifle.jpg" target="_blank">https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Type_64_Rifle.jpg/640px-Type_64_Rifle.jpg</a>



Howa manufactured AR-18/180s from 1967 to 1974 under the license from ArmaLite, and a few of them were delivered to the Defense Agency for evaluation. After it was revealed that the Provisional IRA illegally obtained and used many Howa-made AR-180s, Howa ceased manufacturing AR-18/180s. However, Howa utilized the experience and the knowledge obtained from producing them for developing the new small-caliber rifles. In 1989, Howa HR-16 (HR stands for Howa Rifle), developed based on AR-18, was officially adopted as Type 89 5.56 mm rifle. After that, most of Type 64s were replaced with Type 89s in the Ground SDF. In the Maritime and Air SDF, they are still armed with Type 64s.


<a href="https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%95%E3%82%A1%E3%82%A4%E3%83%AB:JGSDF_Type_89_Assault_Rifle_20100418-01.JPG" target="_blank">https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ja/thumb/d/d8/JGSDF_Type_89_Assault_Rifle_20100418-01.JPG/640px-JGSDF_Type_89_Assault_Rifle_20100418-01.JPG</a>

 
View Quote


That type 89, if there were a wish list of guns I'd normally not get a chance to shoot, that would be in my top 5.
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 7:23:09 PM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

This webpage has some photos showing Japanese-made ZH-29 / Pedersen / Garand.
 
View Quote



very cool!

Link Posted: 11/18/2015 7:27:43 PM EDT
[#31]
nice photos op! I want all of those guns
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 8:07:09 PM EDT
[#32]
I could make a better looking rifle with some angle iron and a Dremel.
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 8:09:03 PM EDT
[#33]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Damn, where have you been hiding for the last 2 years? Some of the most informative posts I've seen around here, and all in a GD thread no less.

View Quote


I forgot his name already (), but in the spring there was a fella explaining nuclear power plant stuff in a thread about Chernobyl.



 
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 8:11:15 PM EDT
[#34]
WW2 Japanese war trophies were total shit.
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 8:24:09 PM EDT
[#35]
Image in OP doesn't want to load in the thread, and it took forever to load when I opened up the link, so I'm re-uploading it to Gyazo in case anyone else has this problem.
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 8:27:39 PM EDT
[#36]
Good find.  Thank you.
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 8:33:14 PM EDT
[#37]
I'd love to own a Howa Type 89.





























It is the best version of the Ar-18 out there!


 



Closet thing I to it is my South Korean Daewoo K2
















Link Posted: 11/18/2015 8:40:33 PM EDT
[#38]
I'm digging the bottom two, R3's.

Cold war battle rifle styling .

Reminds me a bit of the Swiss STGW 57
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 9:11:58 PM EDT
[#39]



Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Why wouldn't "death" be an appropriate name for a rifle?



View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:



* Type R4 does not exist, because a pronunciation of "four" in Japanese is "shi", that's a same sound as "death (shi)" in Japanese. They deliberately avoided to use this number.

Why wouldn't "death" be an appropriate name for a rifle?









 
It's like the number 13 in the Western countries.



4 is one of the unlucky numbers in East Asia.










I think it would be appropriate for a rifle if that means "death(bringer)".



 
 
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 9:14:11 PM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History



Is that first pic a privately owned Howa Type 89?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 9:14:22 PM EDT
[#41]
Very neat, thanks for posting OP!
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 9:17:10 PM EDT
[#42]
Tag. Thanks for posting and welcome to ARFCOM, OP
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 9:23:53 PM EDT
[#43]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Is that first pic a privately owned Howa Type 89?



Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
No... sadly it is not.

 
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 9:27:22 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Ever seen the Japanese Type 5?  It's a wartime reverse engineered Battlefield Capture Garand chambered in 7.7 with a capacity of 10 loaded by two stripper clips.  Only a few prototypes were made, the National Firearms Museum has one.

http://www.weaponeer.net/forum/uploads/Tikiman001/images/2009-03-03_172039_garand_and_type_5.jpg
View Quote

Sarco had one several years ago(remember when they weren't selling guns for a while due to FFL problems? A bit before that). Advertised as missing some parts. I was just talking to a guy the other day about them, he wants one but knows how unlikely he is to find one.
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 9:33:01 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

  It's like the number 13 in the Western countries.
4 is one of the unlucky numbers in East Asia.


I think it would be appropriate for a rifle if that means "death(bringer)".
   
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
* Type R4 does not exist, because a pronunciation of "four" in Japanese is "shi", that's a same sound as "death (shi)" in Japanese. They deliberately avoided to use this number.


Why wouldn't "death" be an appropriate name for a rifle?

  It's like the number 13 in the Western countries.
4 is one of the unlucky numbers in East Asia.


I think it would be appropriate for a rifle if that means "death(bringer)".
   


I'd kinda wonder if a "Shi" rifle might have the connotation of the user's or carrier's death, rather than the enemy's.

Then again, my linguistic and cultural knowledge of Japan is pretty rudimentary--I stopped my studies in about 2007 with only a high school class and a couple 1-semester college classes under my belt.

Jien, thanks for posting! Please keep it up.
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 9:35:41 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Jien, thanks for posting! Please keep it up.
View Quote

This. Please do, very interesting posts.
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 11:40:21 PM EDT
[#47]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'd kinda wonder if a "Shi" rifle might have the connotation of the user's or carrier's death, rather than the enemy's.

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:

* Type R4 does not exist, because a pronunciation of "four" in Japanese is "shi", that's a same sound as "death (shi)" in Japanese. They deliberately avoided to use this number.




Why wouldn't "death" be an appropriate name for a rifle?



  It's like the number 13 in the Western countries.

4 is one of the unlucky numbers in East Asia.





I think it would be appropriate for a rifle if that means "death(bringer)".

   




I'd kinda wonder if a "Shi" rifle might have the connotation of the user's or carrier's death, rather than the enemy's.





 
Ah, that's what I wanted to say. Thanks!
Link Posted: 11/18/2015 11:45:31 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

  It's like the number 13 in the Western countries.
4 is one of the unlucky numbers in East Asia.


I think it would be appropriate for a rifle if that means "death(bringer)".
   
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
* Type R4 does not exist, because a pronunciation of "four" in Japanese is "shi", that's a same sound as "death (shi)" in Japanese. They deliberately avoided to use this number.


Why wouldn't "death" be an appropriate name for a rifle?

  It's like the number 13 in the Western countries.
4 is one of the unlucky numbers in East Asia.


I think it would be appropriate for a rifle if that means "death(bringer)".
   


"deathbringer"  I really like the sound of that.
Link Posted: 11/19/2015 12:03:45 AM EDT
[#50]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


On September 7th 1964, Type Official III-2 (Type R6E Modified) was adopted by the Defense Agency as Type 64 7.62 mm rifle. However, in fact, the Defense Agency was planning to purchase and adopt the U.S. M14 rifle, because the development of Type 64 was running late, and there were numerous retired M14s which had been replaced by M16 rifles.





https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Type_64_Rifle.jpg/640px-Type_64_Rifle.jpg
Howa manufactured AR-18/180s from 1967 to 1974 under the license from ArmaLite, and a few of them were delivered to the Defense Agency for evaluation. After it was revealed that the Provisional IRA illegally obtained and used many Howa-made AR-180s, Howa ceased manufacturing AR-18/180s. However, Howa utilized the experience and the knowledge obtained from producing them for developing the new small-caliber rifles. In 1989, Howa HR-16 (HR stands for Howa Rifle), developed based on AR-18, was officially adopted as Type 89 5.56 mm rifle. After that, most of Type 64s were replaced with Type 89s in the Ground SDF. In the Maritime and Air SDF, they are still armed with Type 64s.





https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ja/thumb/d/d8/JGSDF_Type_89_Assault_Rifle_20100418-01.JPG/640px-JGSDF_Type_89_Assault_Rifle_20100418-01.JPG



 
View Quote
Nice.



 
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