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Posted: 8/25/2005 5:34:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 5:35:05 AM EDT by macman37]
Jane's defence weekly says that China is refitting a dinged up ex-Russian carrier and painting it in their own colors.


Chinese shipyard workers have been repairing a badly damaged ex-Russian aircraft carrier and have repainted it with the country's military markings, raising the question once again of whether China is pursuing longer-term plans to field its first carrier.

In the latest developments, images show that workers at the Chinese Dalian Shipyard have repainted the ex-Russian Kuznetsov-class aircraft carrier Varyag with the markings and colour scheme of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Navy (PLAN). Additional new photographs show that other work, the specifics of which could not be determined, appears to be continuing and that the condition of the vessel is being improved.



Shakedown cruise: Taiwan?


Edit: And I checked the first two pages for dupes and didn't find any...
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 5:35:20 AM EDT
I can't wait until WalMart stocks them. May have to get one to run up and down the Missouri.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 5:44:23 AM EDT
Vereeeery interesting.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 5:45:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 5:46:24 AM EDT by Red_Beard]
Good thing we have lots of nukes.

Link Posted: 8/25/2005 5:47:47 AM EDT
Can't wait to pick one up from Target, Home Depot, Lowe's, CompUSA, $1 store, ARFCOM vendors, etc... any other store that carries products made in China.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 6:17:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:
Can't wait to pick one up from Target, Home Depot, Lowe's, CompUSA, $1 store, ARFCOM vendors, etc... any other store that carries products made in China.





No, ice cream trucks will be the preferred retailers
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 6:23:42 AM EDT
They bought this carrier years ago. Claimed they were going to turn it into a tourist attraction. No one believed them then.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 6:30:10 AM EDT
I'm sure it's as much of a "tourist attraction" as their holding of our P-3 they crashed into was a "safety inspection". And the collision occuring in international waters, for that matter.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 6:33:33 AM EDT
What is the point?

Taiwan is well within range of land-based strike
aircraft. They must be trying to field a blue-
water navy.

The ChiComs do not have the resources to
properly field a CVBG. The Chicoms could
spend a boatload of money fixing an obsolete
carrier that would be sunk on day-one of any
conflict from a volley of Harpoons. They don't
have the ships or the technology to properly
defend a carrier. Hell, the US Navy is the most
advanced naval force ever put to sea and we
are still vulnerable to high-speed cruise
missiles.

I don't get it...
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 6:34:58 AM EDT
Now I have a feeling I know why the US Navy Sank the USS America for testing
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 6:46:22 AM EDT
It's a piece of crap russian carrier that doesn't work. Let them waste their money on it.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 6:50:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DarkKnight:
It's a piece of crap russian carrier that doesn't work. Let them waste their money on it.



Is it still technically our money if it's Wal-mart that hands it over to em?
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 6:54:46 AM EDT
Cool, A new target drone for USN gunners!!
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 8:15:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
Now I have a feeling I know why the US Navy Sank the USS America for testing



Speaking of which, anybody got any pics or videos from the CV-66 sinking??

Thanks,

Merlin
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:57:05 AM EDT
I wondered what was going on with that ship. Thought it ended up at the breakers like the Kiev did.

It will make a good training ship, something to land on and service an air group. I wonder how long it will take for China to build and deploy real carriers. ONE carrier is a too-valuable-to-risk showpiece; two or more is real combat power.

China has real blue water interests worth defending, like the Mallacan (sp) straights and the Spratley islands. There is a blogger out there who explained what this meant, but I cant' recall a name or address.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 11:10:41 AM EDT
They would do well to Google, Bidu or whatever else they are using: Hiryu, Soryu, Akagi among others
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 11:10:50 AM EDT
What is the Chinese equivalent to the Su-27K/Su-33M? An aircraft carrier is just a big flaoting "Sink ME!" sign without a robust complement of auitable aircraft. If they are planning to use this vessel against Taiwan, I suppose it could serve just as a floating helicopter base, with CAP covered by land-based jets and aerial refuelling.

Interesting. Pretty clever, these Chinese.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 11:15:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DzlBenz:
What is the Chinese equivalent to the Su-27K/Su-33M?


Their version would be the Su-27K/Su-33M bought from their Russian friends.

Russia really has to wake up. Chinese expansion into Siberia is more natural than trying to occupy a myriad of islands.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 11:26:53 AM EDT
I think it is a crack-up that their Navy is part of the Army. How about if we had The United States Army Navy, or even better yet the United States Army Marines?
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 11:33:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By green-grizzly:
I think it is a crack-up that their Navy is part of the Army. How about if we had The United States Army Navy, or even better yet the United States Army Marines?




The Army-Navy football game sure would suck.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 11:37:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TheCynic:
What is the point?

Taiwan is well within range of land-based strike
aircraft. They must be trying to field a blue-
water navy.


The ChiComs do not have the resources to
properly field a CVBG. The Chicoms could
spend a boatload of money fixing an obsolete
carrier that would be sunk on day-one of any
conflict from a volley of Harpoons. They don't
have the ships or the technology to properly
defend a carrier. Hell, the US Navy is the most
advanced naval force ever put to sea and we
are still vulnerable to high-speed cruise
missiles.

I don't get it...[/quote]

You answered your own question.

If they have ambitions of World Domination( And I think they do) they will need a Blue Water Navy
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 11:41:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
Their version would be the Su-27K/Su-33M bought from their Russian friends.

Which carries what Chinese designation? They have the J-11, which is the Irkustk-built export model SU-30MKK, but that is a land-based version and largely unsuitable for carrier operations (nose gear too short, main gear with too little compression length, no folding wings, cockpit too low, etc.) The Su-27 taht was chosen to augment the nacent JH-7 attack jet is, as in the case of the Su-30MKK, not suited to carrier operations, either. FC-1 has potential as a carrier-based all-around fighter, but by the time it, too, is made robust enough for carrier operations, will have a very diminished wepons-carrying capacity.

Of course, they have the J-10, developed by the Israelis as the "Lavi".


Originally Posted By dport:
Russia really has to wake up. Chinese expansion into Siberia is more natural than trying to occupy a myriad of islands.

Precisely and elegantly worded. Thank you for putting that point so clearly.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 11:56:18 AM EDT
Regarding the Chinese designation: I have no clue. I thought you were just asking about the airframe type, sorry.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 12:11:27 PM EDT
As opposed to the United States Army Air Force?

Oh, wait. That was a real organisation.

NTM
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 12:12:32 PM EDT
HUH?! China never had a carrier before? Learn somthing new everyday. How is it that a country that large with a huge coast line never had a carrier before this? We are supposed to consider them a threat yet they can't even produce a carrier? I thought all the chinese were smart? Their kids always do well in school, so much fer that dang darn book learnin'
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 12:14:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 12:15:00 PM EDT by DzlBenz]

Originally Posted By dport:
Regarding the Chinese designation: I have no clue. I thought you were just asking about the airframe type, sorry.

Not busting your post, just trying to learn if there is a current carrier-suitable jet in the Chinese inventory I wasn't aware of. Air Forces Monthly had an issue earlier this year on Chinese military aviation, and I didn't recall any carrier-suitable jets in there.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 12:18:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 12:19:41 PM EDT by CSM]

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By green-grizzly:
I think it is a crack-up that their Navy is part of the Army. How about if we had The United States Army Navy, or even better yet the United States Army Marines?




The Army-Navy football game sure would suck.





Here we are folks! The game of the Year, the Army Vs Army uh Navy game! Yeah, for many years here the Navy has been the little Bitch of the Army, but this year will be different! Now we have a shitty-ass derelict Russian carrier!

Just imagine! Match up Russian Navy success rates with Chicom Craftsmanship... Now the navy can drown 20,000+ Chinese Patriots at once, oh, this is a Proud Day!


HAR HAR HAR. losers.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 12:28:09 PM EDT
This carrier is going to be their learning curve.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 12:29:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DzlBenz:

Originally Posted By dport:
Regarding the Chinese designation: I have no clue. I thought you were just asking about the airframe type, sorry.

Not busting your post, just trying to learn if there is a current carrier-suitable jet in the Chinese inventory I wasn't aware of. Air Forces Monthly had an issue earlier this year on Chinese military aviation, and I didn't recall any carrier-suitable jets in there.


I don't recall seeing any in my sources either. My guess is that if Russia doesn't sell them then the Chinese will try to adapt their airframe. I think it will be an SU-33/27 though. My guess is they would want a carrier, not for strike, but to fly air cover for their surface fleet/amphib forces.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 12:37:02 PM EDT
They could be seeking air cover for the COSCO (not Costco) container fleet! Fuggin' pirates!
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 8:59:16 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 11:39:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 11:49:10 PM EDT by Ustulina]
It is pretty strange that they have spent more than 10 years getting pretty much nowhere with carrier based aviation, despite an apparent interest and a relative availability of V/STOL and conventional aircraft. Might be lack of money to maintain a cadillac, might be pressure from other concerned Asian nations.


The American Navy was also once a piss-ant shadow compared the the dominant naval power of the early 1800s.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 11:56:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DzlBenz:
What is the Chinese equivalent to the Su-27K/Su-33M? An aircraft carrier is just a big flaoting "Sink ME!" sign without a robust complement of auitable aircraft. If they are planning to use this vessel against Taiwan, I suppose it could serve just as a floating helicopter base, with CAP covered by land-based jets and aerial refuelling.

Interesting. Pretty clever, these Chinese.



J-11 is the Chinese version of the SU-27.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 11:58:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By passgas55:
This carrier is going to be their learning curve.



+1

They have time. They are still making money.

When it's convenient for them, they'll build/assemble/buy a blue water navy.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 1:54:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By DzlBenz:
What is the Chinese equivalent to the Su-27K/Su-33M?


Their version would be the Su-27K/Su-33M bought from their Russian friends.

Russia really has to wake up. Chinese expansion into Siberia is more natural than trying to occupy a myriad of islands.



LOL,

Believe it or not they have! I was in Siberia (Omsk) and my friends there had some complaints alright

They are also tired of the illegals entering into the far east (similar to the problem we have with Mexico). They view the Chinese as cheap labor (much as many here view the illegals we have).

But if you have a customer with deep pockets (China) and you have goods [military hardware] to sell (Russia) then I guess you sell them your old stuff.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 2:01:52 AM EDT
Another thought....

The Chinese would freeze in Siberia. It would be a repeat of history - what did Nepoleon and Hitler learn about Russian winters?????

They would more likely be interested in the far east than Siberia and that would also cripple Russia because many of their imports/exports come in through the far east and then go for a ride on the Trans-Siberian Railway.

Those trains supply big cities such as Novosibirsk (the 3rd largest city in Russia) and Omsk (the 9th largest city in Russia). Many hi-tech items from japan, etc come through there on their way to the western (European) part of Russia.

Link Posted: 8/27/2005 4:41:54 AM EDT
The climate in the northern parts of China and Siberia isn't that different. If the Russians can master the cold, so can the Chinese. Let's face it, with a population projected at 1.4 billion in 2020 they need land and resources. Siberia has both.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 5:07:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/27/2005 5:08:33 AM EDT by SteelonSteel]
I agree with the Chinese not being worried about the cold.
1. They have some similar terretories.
2. They have no problem sacrificing soldiers to a cause; reread some of their exploits in the Korean War. They weren't overly worried about casualty counts.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 5:22:45 AM EDT
if Norinco's building it, the front part of the ship will be canted
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 5:27:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
if Norinco's building it, the front part of the ship will be canted


lol
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 5:31:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By p331083:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
if Norinco's building it, the front part of the ship will be canted


lol



somebody caught the reference, hee hee, (ref to front sight blocks on Norinco AK's which is common)
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 6:35:59 AM EDT
Consider...China has a rapidly growing Economy. Their Industrial Base is expanding and modernizing. Their Population is becoming more educated in Engineering and Business. At the same time their wealth/economy is becoming increasingly dependent upon trade..and their consumption of Natural Resources is increasing. With a base population of over 1 BILLION people this is nothing to sneeze at.

This means that it is in China's National Interests to protect Shipping as well as secure access and rights to Oil and Natural Gas fields. Of which their is an abundent supply in the China Sea and in Siberia.

As World Oil Reserves become more depleted and China's consumption of Oil Increases, tensions and the potential for Military Conflict will only increase.

Taiwan is currently more important to the Chinese from a Political standpoint as well as a Geographical Standpoint.

Politically important because the Chicoms have always maintained that Taiwan belongs to China, and allowing Taiwan to be an independent sovereign nation would mean an unacceptable loss of Face on the International Level.

Geographical because Taiwan allows for greater control of shipping lanes passing through the China Sea, as well as securing the offshore Oil and Gas Fields.

It is also important because Taiwan allows direct access to the Pacific for China's ships without having to pass through any straits.

So from a Strategic viewpoint, an independent Taiwan is unacceptable no matter what the cost.

China does NOT want the US to be able to Contain them, like the US did with the Soviet Union.
And Taiwan is a key area for Containing China.


Militarily China is in a learning mode. They are learning how to coordinate their forces and systems. They are paying very close attention to US tactics and strategy.

Not only to improve their own doctrine but to exploit any weaknesses in the US military.

Japan is very concerned about China because Japan feels that China is threatening Japan's national interests. Their is a lot of drive within Japan to rewrite their constitution and rearm their military.

To both China and North and South Korea, a rearmed Japan is also unacceptable. Particularly if Japan has nuclear weapons (which it can rapidly assemble due to Japan's large amount of plutonium produced from its breeder reactors..Japan also has technology for launch vehicles).

Laugh if you want, but the problem is real and it is very serious.

Link Posted: 8/27/2005 6:43:23 AM EDT
I must admit I have been pretty skeptical in the past about China, however they have been rattling their sabers so much here lately, only an idiot would ignore them.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 6:59:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 7:12:37 AM EDT
Why does France have an aircraft carrier? To fly planes that tow huge white flags?
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 7:16:28 AM EDT
Can anyone post a pic of this carrier?
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 7:22:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 7:24:38 AM EDT
Note to the USN: Buy more Harpoons
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 7:33:02 AM EDT
If the PLAN is going to build and maintain a Carrier Fleet... it's going to take them a while to perfect ops. It took the U.S.N. over 50 years trying to perfect Carrier Operations... and we are still trying to perfect it. It's not going to take China overnight to master this; however, we definitely cannot ignore this. They are a huge threat to National Security world wide.

Right now China is playing chess. They are strategically placing their pieces on the board, waiting for the right moment to strike. (i.e. trying to buy oil companies in the U.S.; major military buildup along their eastern coast; more theft of national secrets from the U.S.; purchasing more military equipment from the Russians; Numerious military exercises that mimic an invasion of Taiwan and possible military reaction from the U.S.; and the list goes on).

I'm surprised that most major news outlets have yet to shine more light on this.

***edited to add more links of proof that China is a bigger threat than most will admit.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 12:46:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cyclone:
Note to the USN: Buy more Harpoons Mk48 ADCAPs



Fixed.

Without a credible ASW presence, why bother
risking aircraft when you can get the job done
with a couple of torpedos...
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 1:14:28 PM EDT
If the Chinese decide to invade Taiwan that carrier would be out to sea to delay the USN from reaching Taiwan. Depending on how they timed the operation with US fleet locations, the carrier could buy Chinese ground forces enough time. After the last pocket of resistance on the island is eliminated, the US incentive to take back the island changes and China would gladly trade that carrier and crew to get Taiwan.
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