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Posted: 8/9/2014 9:21:45 AM EDT
I'm a newbie here and generally I observe instead of post. That being said I thought GD might be a good place for myself to find some information for work. I perform a lot of MIL testing for various contractors with the government. One of the tests that I perform is called Contamination by Fluids or Fluids Susceptibility Testing. With this test we subject a product sample to different specified fluids to determine if any undesired effects occur. My issue is that I am trying to locate an avenue for purchasing a small quantity of JP-4 and/or JP-8 as a civilian. One would think this is possible but I have been trying off and on for 3 years to find either without any luck. I've called the main oil distributors Shell, Hess, Exxon, etc to no avail. I even spoke with a gentlemen who sells/brokers the fuel through pipelines but I have yet to find a way to get anywhere from a few gallons to a 55 gallon drum. Generally, our customers allow us to substitute JP-4 fuel with Commercial Jet A fuel but I would prefer to locate the JP-4. Any ideas? I've contacted Langley and they have routed a request but I have not heard back from them yet. I appreciate any help you may be able to give.
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 9:23:21 AM EDT
Hello Mr agent
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 9:26:18 AM EDT
You may be able to call DLA-E directly and ask for someone who deals with commercial sales (not sure they even do commercial but you could ask). Or just dope the Jet A with the additives yourself as it is pretty easy. I know that World Fuels can provide JP-8 to anyone as long as you are willing to pay for it but they are pretty expensive, I have used them many times in South America for fuels support.
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 9:28:58 AM EDT
Why the hell do you want JP-4? I don't think we've used JP-4 for anything since the mid 90s. Jeebus, it's just JetB with corrosion and icing inhibitors. And how the hell does a contractor doing .mil testing not have the ability to get some for required tests?

Your story stinks of a bullshit turd floating in a bucket of JP-8.
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 9:31:32 AM EDT
OP, you are so funny that you are not. Please.....
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 9:32:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2014 9:33:44 AM EDT by TaylorWSO]
I doubt you will fined jp4 stateside,, maybe on a carrier but I doubt you wil get any.

Jeta and jp8 are the same except for some additives the mil puts in for icing/lube/somthing else

if you want to test jp4 get jetB


ETA AF does not use any JP4 anywhere, and I think the navy got rid of it as well except while at sea
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 9:41:34 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
I doubt you will fined jp4 stateside,, maybe on a carrier but I doubt you wil get any.

Jeta and jp8 are the same except for some additives the mil puts in for icing/lube/somthing else

if you want to test jp4 get jetB


ETA AF does not use any JP4 anywhere, and I think the navy got rid of it as well except while at sea
View Quote


The Navy uses JP-5, they never used JP-4, it has too low of a flashpoint, as does JP-8 when compared to JP-4.
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 9:42:00 AM EDT
JP-4 is out of use, and is roughly equivalent to Jet-B, which I'm pretty sure is also out of use though some engines are still rated for it.
JP-8 is single battlefield fuel and is virtually identical to Jet-A1, notice the one, A1 and JP-8 have additives for a lower freeze point than Jet-A. JP-8 has slightly more, freeze point is eight or ten degrees lower than A1, in the -60something° range IIRC vs -56°.
Aviation fuel is generally available at airports, to my knowledge it requires no special qualifications to get, but everyone I "sold to" had a contract.
You are unlikely to find A1 outside of arctic regions.
If it'll resist diesel or kerosene it will resist Jet-A(1)/JP-8
Jet-B/JP-4 is a hell of a lot better solvent and the vapors are very nasty.
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 9:49:57 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
I doubt you will fined jp4 stateside,, maybe on a carrier but I doubt you wil get any.

Jeta and jp8 are the same except for some additives the mil puts in for icing/lube/somthing else

if you want to test jp4 get jetB

ETA AF does not use any JP4 anywhere, and I think the navy got rid of it as well except while at sea
View Quote


As has been stated, AF switched from JP4 to JP8 back in 1995 when the B-2 and C-17 were introduced to help reduced the chances of explosion that JP4 posed. And IIRC the Navy has used JP5 since the 1970s to avoid to reduce fuel explosion hazards in shipboard operations.

JP4 was a "wide cut" fuel consisting of a roughly 50/50 mix of gasoline and kerosene. JP8 is a "white kerosene" based fuel and JP5 is a "yellow kerosene" fuel, both intended to reduce explosive characteristics by eliminating gasoline from their formulas.
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 9:50:15 AM EDT
I'll sell you some Jet-A.
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 9:58:04 AM EDT
As has been stated JP4 has been out of normal use for ~25 years. I'm cleaning up some DOD Superfund sites that have residual JP4 & JP-8. It get's real interesting when you have JP-8(100).
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 10:01:13 AM EDT
What's that smell?
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 10:01:28 AM EDT
I've got logisitic's supply guy that handles fuel for the Army. I'll see what he knows. JP-8 now is used almost exclusively in the Army and most branches, but in the past he has indicated other fuel blends that are used on a much smaller scale.
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 10:02:20 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By AZ_newguy:
What's that smell?
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POL!
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 10:02:32 AM EDT
here's about 55 gallons (the smoke)...if you could only collect it :)

Link Posted: 8/9/2014 10:03:45 AM EDT
I have about 8 fluid ounces of JP4 from DuPont petrochemical, lot # P87-7. Don't ask why
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 10:10:27 AM EDT
I believe the last jet to use JP-4 was the U-2S due to excellent low temperature properties at extreme altitude. JP-4 use was discontinued in the mid-2000s after a series of high altitude temperature tests determined JP-8 was a satisfactory substitute. All U-2s use JP-8 now.
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 10:20:33 AM EDT
I apologize, I did not know that people would be so skeptical of my question. I can assure you that my question is legit. Please feel free to Google Aerospace Testing Corporation and also research MIL-STD-810, Method 504 and RTCA DO-160, Section 11. Our website is dated but you may better understand why I am asking the question.

Back on topic, the customer has specifically asked for the JP-4. Sometimes the military specification for the actual item may have originated in the 80's and has not been updated. I really have no control over it other than to try and meet there request. As for JP-8, it is an option, but acquisition as a civilian is the problem. It was my understanding in speaking with an aviation supply vendor that C130's still use JP-4.
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 10:23:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2014 10:23:50 AM EDT by California_Kid]
Running untaxed fuel in your diesel VW is illegal.

Good luck!
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 10:23:32 AM EDT
As someone whos MOS dealt with fuel testing why in the blue hell are you looking for JP4? No one uses it, it is mostly JP8 and sometimes JP5.
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 10:24:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2014 10:26:18 AM EDT by sanausnol]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BigD18:
I apologize, I did not know that people would be so skeptical of my question. I can assure you that my question is legit. Please feel free to Google Aerospace Testing Corporation and also research MIL-STD-810, Method 504 and RTCA DO-160, Section 11. Our website is dated but you may better understand why I am asking the question.

Back on topic, the customer has specifically asked for the JP-4. Sometimes the military specification for the actual item may have originated in the 80's and has not been updated. I really have no control over it other than to try and meet there request. As for JP-8, it is an option, but acquisition as a civilian is the problem. It was my understanding in speaking with an aviation supply vendor that C130's still use JP-4.
View Quote


C-130s do not use JP-4, they were fueled with JP-8 but we use Jet A now.
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 10:33:11 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Casval214:
As someone whos MOS dealt with fuel testing why in the blue hell are you looking for JP4? No one uses it, it is mostly JP8 and sometimes JP5.
View Quote


As I stated above the military specification sometimes takes decades to update. Once a program is qualified the test spec is generally not changed if the product is a replacement and not a new design. The customer specifically asked for JP-4 and so have many others. Again, I normally substitute with JET A so it's not a an issue. We have some customers who we test monthly lots for and the test requirements have not changed since the 70's.
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 10:34:57 AM EDT
Thanks GD for your input.
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 10:35:59 AM EDT
Surely there is some around where I am currently standing....

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i457/clearwat/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsd5879512.jpg
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 10:43:28 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Casval214:
As someone whos MOS dealt with fuel testing why in the blue hell are you looking for JP4? No one uses it, it is mostly JP8 and sometimes JP5.
View Quote


Another 1391? Fuelin' the Fight, rah?
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 10:46:34 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Clearwat:
Surely there is some around where I am currently standing....

<a href="http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/clearwat/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsd5879512.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i457/clearwat/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsd5879512.jpg</a>
View Quote


Yep... looks like a military base
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 11:31:04 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By BigD18:


As I stated above the military specification sometimes takes decades to update. Once a program is qualified the test spec is generally not changed if the product is a replacement and not a new design. The customer specifically asked for JP-4 and so have many others. Again, I normally substitute with JET A so it's not a an issue. We have some customers who we test monthly lots for and the test requirements have not changed since the 70's.
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Originally Posted By BigD18:
Originally Posted By Casval214:
As someone whos MOS dealt with fuel testing why in the blue hell are you looking for JP4? No one uses it, it is mostly JP8 and sometimes JP5.


As I stated above the military specification sometimes takes decades to update. Once a program is qualified the test spec is generally not changed if the product is a replacement and not a new design. The customer specifically asked for JP-4 and so have many others. Again, I normally substitute with JET A so it's not a an issue. We have some customers who we test monthly lots for and the test requirements have not changed since the 70's.


Have you tried looking into marine suppliers of fuel as well as the aircraft industry? I imagine that the comments regarding the availability of JP-4 are correct - if it has fallen out of use by the military, I doubt refineries are still making it due to the economies of scale. IIRC, the military is trying to standardize fuel to some degree across vehicle platforms, i.e. planes, ships, ground vehicles, etc.
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 11:40:43 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By California_Kid:
Running untaxed fuel in your diesel VW is illegal.

Good luck!
View Quote


........and there u have it. Lol
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 12:13:49 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By sanausnol:


C-130s do not use JP-4, they were fueled with JP-8 but we use Jet A now.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By sanausnol:
Originally Posted By BigD18:
I apologize, I did not know that people would be so skeptical of my question. I can assure you that my question is legit. Please feel free to Google Aerospace Testing Corporation and also research MIL-STD-810, Method 504 and RTCA DO-160, Section 11. Our website is dated but you may better understand why I am asking the question.

Back on topic, the customer has specifically asked for the JP-4. Sometimes the military specification for the actual item may have originated in the 80's and has not been updated. I really have no control over it other than to try and meet there request. As for JP-8, it is an option, but acquisition as a civilian is the problem. It was my understanding in speaking with an aviation supply vendor that C130's still use JP-4.


C-130s do not use JP-4, they were fueled with JP-8 but we use Jet A now.


C-130s used JP4 until sometime in the 1980s. I'm not aware of them using Jet A. JP8 has better fuel stability properties "out in the field" and is a mil spec fuel.
OP I'd see if testing could shift to the two JP8 blends and JP5, that's all that should be running in military aircraft now.
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 12:17:17 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Panta_Rei:


C-130s used JP4 until sometime in the 1980s. I'm not aware of them using Jet A. JP8 has better fuel stability properties "out in the field" and is a mil spec fuel.
OP I'd see if testing could shift to the two JP8 blends and JP5, that's all that should be running in military aircraft now.
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Originally Posted By Panta_Rei:
Originally Posted By sanausnol:
Originally Posted By BigD18:
I apologize, I did not know that people would be so skeptical of my question. I can assure you that my question is legit. Please feel free to Google Aerospace Testing Corporation and also research MIL-STD-810, Method 504 and RTCA DO-160, Section 11. Our website is dated but you may better understand why I am asking the question.

Back on topic, the customer has specifically asked for the JP-4. Sometimes the military specification for the actual item may have originated in the 80's and has not been updated. I really have no control over it other than to try and meet there request. As for JP-8, it is an option, but acquisition as a civilian is the problem. It was my understanding in speaking with an aviation supply vendor that C130's still use JP-4.


C-130s do not use JP-4, they were fueled with JP-8 but we use Jet A now.


C-130s used JP4 until sometime in the 1980s. I'm not aware of them using Jet A. JP8 has better fuel stability properties "out in the field" and is a mil spec fuel.
OP I'd see if testing could shift to the two JP8 blends and JP5, that's all that should be running in military aircraft now.


The military is converting to Jet A right now, we are moving away from JP-8 as it offers few advantages for the additional cost of the additives.
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 12:17:25 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BigD18:
I apologize, I did not know that people would be so skeptical of my question. I can assure you that my question is legit. Please feel free to Google Aerospace Testing Corporation and also research MIL-STD-810, Method 504 and RTCA DO-160, Section 11. Our website is dated but you may better understand why I am asking the question.

Back on topic, the customer has specifically asked for the JP-4. Sometimes the military specification for the actual item may have originated in the 80's and has not been updated. I really have no control over it other than to try and meet there request. As for JP-8, it is an option, but acquisition as a civilian is the problem. It was my understanding in speaking with an aviation supply vendor that C130's still use JP-4.
View Quote


BigD
I work for a lab that does the same testing so I feel your pain working with outdated materials that the customer wants do to contract requirements. there is a company up in the Detroit area that I get JP 4,5,8 from the name escapes me at the moment but I purchased form the last year. I will see if I can find it on Monday and see if I cam IM it to you
Link Posted: 8/9/2014 6:06:20 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By feb:


BigD
I work for a lab that does the same testing so I feel your pain working with outdated materials that the customer wants do to contract requirements. there is a company up in the Detroit area that I get JP 4,5,8 from the name escapes me at the moment but I purchased form the last year. I will see if I can find it on Monday and see if I cam IM it to you
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Originally Posted By feb:
Originally Posted By BigD18:
I apologize, I did not know that people would be so skeptical of my question. I can assure you that my question is legit. Please feel free to Google Aerospace Testing Corporation and also research MIL-STD-810, Method 504 and RTCA DO-160, Section 11. Our website is dated but you may better understand why I am asking the question.

Back on topic, the customer has specifically asked for the JP-4. Sometimes the military specification for the actual item may have originated in the 80's and has not been updated. I really have no control over it other than to try and meet there request. As for JP-8, it is an option, but acquisition as a civilian is the problem. It was my understanding in speaking with an aviation supply vendor that C130's still use JP-4.


BigD
I work for a lab that does the same testing so I feel your pain working with outdated materials that the customer wants do to contract requirements. there is a company up in the Detroit area that I get JP 4,5,8 from the name escapes me at the moment but I purchased form the last year. I will see if I can find it on Monday and see if I cam IM it to you


Feb,
That would be great. People don't always understand that you can spend days and weeks trying to source specified products for a 1 hour test. Thanks again all.
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