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Posted: 9/5/2004 5:31:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 5:32:40 AM EST by Specop_007]
Posted about it on a few other boards, and how I felt that we needed to take strong action such as that of Nepal. Its amazing how the American public at large just DOESNT GET IT. They think everyone is innocent until proven guilty beyond any shadow of a doubt. They think Islam is by and large a religion of peace.

Just one example

Its just sad that even after time and again of seeing what these people are capable of, the worlds population as a whole still cant find the strength or courage to stand up to them as a group.

This war, the next Holy war..... We have our work cut out for us.

Its nice to be on a board where people have the strength of resolve to see this through till the end. It definately helps bolster ones own courage that we CAN win. I'm tired of trying to convince the worlds "hippies" that we should let these atrocities slide time and time again.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:35:00 AM EST
I agree it is scary to think the world is so ignorant!

I've been really bummed out about this Russian attack. All those little children. It's very sad.

Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:37:41 AM EST
This one isn't Islam's fault. There are no Chechen Rebels. It's a war between two Red Mafia factions, the one in power and the one not. That's why we stay out of it and you never see interviews of any rebel leaders on BBC TV. There are none.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:37:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By COZ:
I agree it is scary to think the world is so ignorant!

I've been really bummed out about this Russian attack. All those little children. It's very sad.




Yeah, every time I see those pictures I get just a bit wet in the eye. Fucking bastards. The sad thing is, it seems the majorities opinion is that these are all just isolated incidents. People just dont see that big picture, and just assume that Islam is a peaceful religion and to target the religion as a whole or to "Do what needs to be done" is out of the qustion. Its almost as if somewhere along our evolutionary lines we lost our backbone and our ability to care.

But, I'll not let the sacrifices of those who have come before us go unremembered. Alot of good men and women have fought, bled and died for what we have today. To let it quietly slip away in the night would be as big of travesty as any terrorist attack.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:38:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By Astrogoth:
This one isn't Islam's fault. There are no Chechen Rebels. It's a war between two Red Mafia factions, the one in power and the one not. That's why we stay out of it and you never see interviews of any rebel leaders on BBC TV. There are none.



Are you serious(ly deluded)?????
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:39:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By Astrogoth:
This one isn't Islam's fault. There are no Chechen Rebels. It's a war between two Red Mafia factions, the one in power and the one not. That's why we stay out of it and you never see interviews of any rebel leaders on BBC TV. There are none.



You are seriously fucked up if you believe that.

Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:40:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By Astrogoth:
This one isn't Islam's fault. There are no Chechen Rebels. It's a war between two Red Mafia factions, the one in power and the one not. That's why we stay out of it and you never see interviews of any rebel leaders on BBC TV. There are none.



Say what? Haven't you been following any of this? The guys that did this are Islamic fundamentalists. They are they ones fomenting rebellion in Chechnya - and elsewhere.......
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:41:46 AM EST
I've been emailing my thread URL to people. I think its got the most pics in one place. But yes, you're right, not many people know or understand the depth of what happened.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:41:58 AM EST
They're a bunch of cum guzzeling thumpa-thumpa bass listening rap cocksuckers.
Fuck'em.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:44:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By Astrogoth:
This one isn't Islam's fault. There are no Chechen Rebels. It's a war between two Red Mafia factions, the one in power and the one not. That's why we stay out of it and you never see interviews of any rebel leaders on BBC TV. There are none.



Step away from your computer and remove head from anus.

Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:51:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By Astrogoth:
This one isn't Islam's fault. There are no Chechen Rebels. It's a war between two Red Mafia factions, the one in power and the one not. That's why we stay out of it and you never see interviews of any rebel leaders on BBC TV. There are none.



Please dont confuse the issue with facts.......
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:52:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By Astrogoth:
This one isn't Islam's fault. There are no Chechen Rebels. It's a war between two Red Mafia factions, the one in power and the one not. That's why we stay out of it and you never see interviews of any rebel leaders on BBC TV. There are none.



Please dont confuse the issue with facts.......



He didn't...nothing he said should be confused with facts.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:54:32 AM EST
Terrorism is terrorism, whether committed by the Islamic Fundamentalists, a faction of the Russian Mafia, or the KKK. Taking schoolchildren hostage is terrorism. That's why I'm OK on the war with Iraq, whether or not there wre WMDs found.
It's part of a larger effort in which we are in the morally correct position: "Terrorism sucks."
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:55:46 AM EST
As I listened to Savage rant about the MUSLIM terrorist BASTARD murderers, I heard him bring up a very valid point: where is the COVERAGE of this event? It is VERY weak on the conventional sources, to say the least. Why? Many theories, of course, but I like his: it simply doesn't fit into their "make nice with Islam" format. No, not ALL Muslims are bad people. But this IS A PROBLEMATIC "religion", and the sooner we wake up to this, the BETTER!
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 6:33:24 AM EST
They know that any terrorist attacks justify GWB's policy as a reminder we are at war with Islamic (aka MUSLIMS) terrorists and reaffirm pencil penis head Kerri (not a spelling error) can't handle it.

rk
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:07:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 7:10:16 AM EST by macro]
I think that maybe, just maybe, people are slowly starting to catch on to what many of us have understood for a long time. I had the opportunity to drive about a 1000 miles in the last two days....from South East PA up to the Mass / NH border and back again.....I listened to AM talk radio the entire time....no particular stations...just whatever my antenna would pick up (both liberal and conservative shows). Up and down the eastern seaboard and up and down the dial, people were calling in outraged. Up near Boston (liberal fkn central).. I heard some of the following things:

A talk show host on what I assume was a sport radio station got outraged by the fact that callers wanted to discuss the red sox winning streak and not the Russian school attack, said that he didnt care if they cancelled his show but he was going to talk about this story because people need to hear about it....

A guy on one station in Mass called in and said he was a democrat, but at this point feels he needs to vote for Bush because the world is just too scary to take a position of appeasement...

One man called and stated that regardless of how bad it sounded, it was time to intern all muslims in America until we can figure out just what they are up to....

A guy that called into savage nation suggested that the Russian determine the relatives of the chechan terrorists, then send a box of their body parts into the school every hour until the siege is over (this was before the killing started)

Almost every caller on every station was starting to see that things arent what they once were...that the world is changing, and that new tactics will be required to deal with the situation.
One man even suggested that this is the opening salvo of WWIII and most people just havent realized it yet. I think people are starting to get it, I just hope we arent too late.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:10:48 AM EST
Dudes llok at his name, its necromancer all over again. You going to put a spell on us again?
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:12:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By The_Camp_Ninja:
As I listened to Savage rant about the MUSLIM terrorist BASTARD murderers, I heard him bring up a very valid point: where is the COVERAGE of this event? It is VERY weak on the conventional sources, to say the least. Why? Many theories, of course, but I like his: it simply doesn't fit into their "make nice with Islam" format. No, not ALL Muslims are bad people. But this IS A PROBLEMATIC "religion", and the sooner we wake up to this, the BETTER!



It may also be that the conventional media has not caught up with the need to cover events inside former ENEMY countries. A lot of news stations seem to think that the Cold War is still on.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:16:04 AM EST

Dudes llok at his name, its necromancer all over again. You going to put a spell on us again?


Who?
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:18:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 7:21:57 AM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Posted about it on a few other boards, and how I felt that we needed to take strong action such as that of Nepal. Its amazing how the American public at large just DOESNT GET IT. They think everyone is innocent until proven guilty beyond any shadow of a doubt. They think Islam is by and large a religion of peace.

Just one example

Its just sad that even after time and again of seeing what these people are capable of, the worlds population as a whole still cant find the strength or courage to stand up to them as a group.

This war, the next Holy war..... We have our work cut out for us.

Its nice to be on a board where people have the strength of resolve to see this through till the end. It definately helps bolster ones own courage that we CAN win. I'm tired of trying to convince the worlds "hippies" that we should let these atrocities slide time and time again.



And I'm trying to convince you guys that there is a separation between our war with AQ and Russia's war with the Chechen rebel terrorists.

What you are 'shocked' by, I find routine & par for the course for that perticular war. This is how they fight over there...

What you are seeing is not some 'Holy War' (every war that happens to involve Muslims is not a 'Holy War', and this one is no more a 'Holy War' than the Yugoslave Civil War was.), but rather an example of what happens when you fight in a manner where the only rule is 'Kill'.

BOTH sides have adopted this philosophy, BOTH sides are guilty of indescriminate destruction, and both sides have no choice but to continue to fight in this manner.

The problem is, that neither side can win.

I find it incredibly short-sighted that you fail to see this, and every thread on the subject immediately advocates massive, indescriminate destructive force. or various absurd religeon-based retaliation (the pork fixation), conveniently ignoring the fact that this war has nothing to do with religeon apart from the fact that people who are fighting practice one. Some folks even advocate genocide.

The problem with this, is that (1) the reason it's gotten so bad over there is BECAUSE the Russian Army is INCAPABLE of anything but massive indescriminate force, (2) they had a chance to win the war back when it first started, had they engaged in an American-style precision campaign.

Instead, they turned the entire population of Chechnya against them with indescriminate brute force. Well, now with the school massacre, you see the latest atrocity in a long line of atrocities on both sides. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU FIGHT TO MERELY KILL INSTEAD OF TO WIN.

Now, the Russians can't win. But you guys advocate that we fight our campaigns in Iraq in the EXACT SAME WAY THAT MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE RUSSIANS TO WIN WITHOUT GENOCIDE (which fortunately, even they are to civilized to commit).
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 7:57:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 8:02:10 AM EST by raven]
I know. Elsewhere on the internet, in places where I talk to liberals, they keep insisting these terrorist attacks had nothing to do with Islam, and that it's bigoted and unfair to blame a religion 1 billion people practice for terrorism. You'd think the fact that while not all muslims are terrorists, all terrorists seem to be muslim would register with them. Nope. They deny it, one guy said most terrorism in the world is committed by Latinos

I dont understand this eagerness to apologize for the ROP among the Left, who normally have nothing but contempt for strict fundamentalist religions and morality. Some liberals haven't lost their minds about this (Ed Koch, Ron Silver, Zell Miller), the rest just see Islamic terrorism as an issue they want to ignore or forget because it strengthens the case why George Bush should be president. I can't understand their indifference otherwise.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 11:21:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 11:30:14 AM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By raven:
I know. Elsewhere on the internet, in places where I talk to liberals, they keep insisting these terrorist attacks had nothing to do with Islam, and that it's bigoted and unfair to blame a religion 1 billion people practice for terrorism. You'd think the fact that while not all muslims are terrorists, all terrorists seem to be muslim would register with them. Nope. They deny it, one guy said most terrorism in the world is committed by Latinos

I dont understand this eagerness to apologize for the ROP among the Left, who normally have nothing but contempt for strict fundamentalist religions and morality. Some liberals haven't lost their minds about this (Ed Koch, Ron Silver, Zell Miller), the rest just see Islamic terrorism as an issue they want to ignore or forget because it strengthens the case why George Bush should be president. I can't understand their indifference otherwise.



The reason the liberals are the way they are is simple: They do not believe in evil or 'wrong'.

To them, 'terrorisim' (forget the 'Islamic' part, it doesn't matter - they treat all terrorists the same regardless of motivation) is just some poor disadvantaged group acting out it's frustrations... LIBERALS believe that if there is terrorisim it's because the side with power screwed up, not because the terrorists are wrong. To a liberal, 'anyone with a terror problem did something to deserve it'.

They also habitioally side with every antigovernment rebel group seeking 'self determination'. If modern liberals had existed in the 1860s they would have rooted for Secession on principle despite the fact that the Union was the 'right' side of the Civil War.

So to the liberals, throughout the ORIGINAL Chechen war (which had and has nothing to do with Islam), the Chechens were the 'good' guys seeking independance from 'opressive' Moscow.

------- That is what the LIBERALS think, and they are WRONG -------

Now, OTOH, there are certain groups so fixated on the Islamic part of IslamicTERRORISIM.

This is a good pert of the respondants to this thread, and a source for the mockery of Bush's (in)famous 'Religeon of Peace' quote.

From this we get a blind focus on the religeon of the enemy, as if the war is between us and Muslims, even though it's not. They tend to see any conflict or operation involving Muslims as religeous terrorisim, and be proponets of seeing the WOT as a 'Global Holy War'.

This is as WRONG as the liberal view.

In reality, the threat to the USA is not 'Muslims', it's (1) a specific terrorist group (Al Queda) and it's spin offs, who are fueled by a specific group of Middle Eastern leaders (ostensably our friends). AQ is unique in that they are international, dedicated to striking out at us, not fighting an insurgent war in their regional/local area. THEY and the governments that feed them are the enemy, that is it.

The Chechen conflict has nothing to do with our war, other than the fact that AQ feeds it to keep the Russians off balance. So our winning the WOT will hekp the Russians with Chechnya, but their operations in Chechnya have no bearing on our operations in the ME. It's as much of our problem as Somolia or Yugoslavia was before we MADE those 2 our problem -> not much at all....

Iraq, OTOH, was one of the 'feeder' nations, and liberating Iraq, if we stay the course, will mean one less nation providing an environment that spawns terrorisim.

Outside of the Middle East & South East Asia, it's largely not our war, and we would do well to make sure we don't repeat the Shah debacle by becoming involved where our resources and/or our agenda (liberating the ME) are not at stake. We have a large, but limited amount of power, and it should be spent undermining AQ & the Middle Eastern dictators, not stuffing our noses into every brush-war & uprising that happens to involve Muslims.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 11:36:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
Dudes llok at his name, its necromancer all over again. You going to put a spell on us again?



Dude, look at his join date...

JANUARY 2001

Sorry, disagreement does not a troll make...

No matter how 'off' his facts (and yours) may be...

There ARE Chechen rebels.

They ARE NOT part of AQ

They ARE NOT motivated by some world-wide imperial-religeous kookery, but rather by a blood feud with Moscow over indeoendance...
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 11:45:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 11:49:21 AM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By COZ:
I agree it is scary to think the world is so ignorant!

I've been really bummed out about this Russian attack. All those little children. It's very sad.




Yeah, every time I see those pictures I get just a bit wet in the eye. Fucking bastards. The sad thing is, it seems the majorities opinion is that these are all just isolated incidents. People just dont see that big picture, and just assume that Islam is a peaceful religion and to target the religion as a whole or to "Do what needs to be done" is out of the qustion. Its almost as if somewhere along our evolutionary lines we lost our backbone and our ability to care.

But, I'll not let the sacrifices of those who have come before us go unremembered. Alot of good men and women have fought, bled and died for what we have today. To let it quietly slip away in the night would be as big of travesty as any terrorist attack.



"Do what needs to be done?"

You mean like the Russians did, back in the beginning? Burning a city of over a hundred thousand to the ground with artillery & heavy bomber raids? You do realize that THAT is why things became what they are, not some global Islamist conspiracy to rule the world...

Basically, the Chechens hate the Russians because of how Russia has fought the war (See above example), and the Russians hate the Chechens because of how the Chechens fight them (see school massacre)... Neither side has any level of civility, and neither side has any hope of victory.

Folks like you would lose this war for us if you were in command. Fortunately, cooler heads run the show, and rationality not rage prevails.

We ARE doing what needs to be done in Iraq & Afganhistan specifically because we ARE NOT TARGETING MUISLIMS, BECAUSE WE ARE NOT TREATING THIS LIKE SOME 6TH CENTURY CRUSADE.

The only way to win, is to FIX the problem at it's source by overthrowing the criminal governments of the Middle East.

Ironically, AQ doesn't recognize this, and is just as much at war with their benefactors as we should be...

The problem is that whoever slays the dragon inherits the kingdom -> if AQ & their religeous nuts do it, they win. If we do it, we win.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 12:01:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
And I'm trying to convince you guys that there is a separation between our war with AQ and Russia's war with the Chechen rebel terrorists.

What you are 'shocked' by, I find routine & par for the course for that perticular war. This is how they fight over there...

What you are seeing is not some 'Holy War' (every war that happens to involve Muslims is not a 'Holy War', and this one is no more a 'Holy War' than the Yugoslave Civil War was.), but rather an example of what happens when you fight in a manner where the only rule is 'Kill'.

BOTH sides have adopted this philosophy, BOTH sides are guilty of indescriminate destruction, and both sides have no choice but to continue to fight in this manner.

The problem is, that neither side can win.

I find it incredibly short-sighted that you fail to see this, and every thread on the subject immediately advocates massive, indescriminate destructive force. or various absurd religeon-based retaliation (the pork fixation), conveniently ignoring the fact that this war has nothing to do with religeon apart from the fact that people who are fighting practice one. Some folks even advocate genocide.

The problem with this, is that (1) the reason it's gotten so bad over there is BECAUSE the Russian Army is INCAPABLE of anything but massive indescriminate force, (2) they had a chance to win the war back when it first started, had they engaged in an American-style precision campaign.

Instead, they turned the entire population of Chechnya against them with indescriminate brute force. Well, now with the school massacre, you see the latest atrocity in a long line of atrocities on both sides. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU FIGHT TO MERELY KILL INSTEAD OF TO WIN.

Now, the Russians can't win. But you guys advocate that we fight our campaigns in Iraq in the EXACT SAME WAY THAT MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE RUSSIANS TO WIN WITHOUT GENOCIDE (which fortunately, even they are to civilized to commit).



Dave, sorry, but you are wrong. This war is part and parcel of the war with AQ. I think a lot of people (ie, most) misunderstand exactly what Al Qaeda is. It isn't a monolithic organization. Originally (circa 1988 or 1989), it started as an alliance between various terrorist organizations. More than anything else, Al Qaeda is an IDEOLOGY born from the roots of the Muslim Brotherhood and Wahhabism. This is the ideology that has been quiety sweeping the Muslim world since the 1920's, and has dramatically picked up steam since the 1980s.

Their general strategy is this:
- in majority Islamic countries, throw out secular leaders and replace them with theocratic leaders.
- replace secular laws with laws based on the Sharia, or the Sharia itself.
- re-implement the poll tax for people of the book (but non-Muslims).
- slaughter pagans (ie, Sudan).
- slaughter heretics (ie, Algeria where the GIA killed upwards of half a million Muslims).
- in minority Islamic countries, foster the islamisation and radicalization of the Muslim population by simulatenously committing terrorist acts (to terrorize the non-Muslim population and create the inevitable backlash against Muslims) and subsidizing mosques where the defense of Islam is preached.
- foster "independence" movements for Muslims where they are the minority in their country, like in the Phillipines or Serbia, or Thailand. This is more or less what is happening in Chechnya, although the Chechen conflict predates the "grand strategy" by several decades.

The problem Russia has is that if they give up Chechnya, Ossetia and Ingueshita will get rolled up right after. Basayev doesn't envision an independent Chechnya, he sees himself as eventual ruler of a Muslim Caucaus empire.

Another reason why Chechnya is part of the war against AQ is that AQ has taken the Chechen cause upon themselves, and use that as justification for attacks against Western (and US) civilians...because we didn't intervene to save the Muslim civilians, we are responsible.

* * *

Regarding the Chechen conflict, it has deteroriated pretty significantly. When Dudayev was around, it much more of a conventional fight, and the Chechen's fielded forces that resembled military units rather than the terrorist bands they have today. Nowadays it's pro-Russian bandits fighting Jihadist bandits. For my money, I hope the pro-Russian bandits win.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 12:51:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
There ARE Chechen rebels.

They ARE NOT part of AQ

They ARE NOT motivated by some world-wide imperial-religeous kookery, but rather by a blood feud with Moscow over indeoendance...



Then why are Chechen Muslims found among the Al Quaeda fighters in Afghanistan and the foreign fighters in Iraq?
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 1:12:21 PM EST
Did anyone catch the how prepared these guys were, they stashed weapons underneath the floor in advance of the attack. Also had gas masks, two-way radio, and their own dogs!

"They knew the geography of the school grounds like their own backyard," the chief spokesman for Russia's Federal Security Service, Sergei N. Ignatchenko, said in a telephone interview on Saturday. "This allowed them to choose sniper positions and place booby-traps on all possible access routes."

Link Posted: 9/5/2004 1:59:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By Drakich:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
And I'm trying to convince you guys that there is a separation between our war with AQ and Russia's war with the Chechen rebel terrorists.

What you are 'shocked' by, I find routine & par for the course for that perticular war. This is how they fight over there...

What you are seeing is not some 'Holy War' (every war that happens to involve Muslims is not a 'Holy War', and this one is no more a 'Holy War' than the Yugoslave Civil War was.), but rather an example of what happens when you fight in a manner where the only rule is 'Kill'.

BOTH sides have adopted this philosophy, BOTH sides are guilty of indescriminate destruction, and both sides have no choice but to continue to fight in this manner.

The problem is, that neither side can win.

I find it incredibly short-sighted that you fail to see this, and every thread on the subject immediately advocates massive, indescriminate destructive force. or various absurd religeon-based retaliation (the pork fixation), conveniently ignoring the fact that this war has nothing to do with religeon apart from the fact that people who are fighting practice one. Some folks even advocate genocide.

The problem with this, is that (1) the reason it's gotten so bad over there is BECAUSE the Russian Army is INCAPABLE of anything but massive indescriminate force, (2) they had a chance to win the war back when it first started, had they engaged in an American-style precision campaign.

Instead, they turned the entire population of Chechnya against them with indescriminate brute force. Well, now with the school massacre, you see the latest atrocity in a long line of atrocities on both sides. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU FIGHT TO MERELY KILL INSTEAD OF TO WIN.

Now, the Russians can't win. But you guys advocate that we fight our campaigns in Iraq in the EXACT SAME WAY THAT MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE RUSSIANS TO WIN WITHOUT GENOCIDE (which fortunately, even they are to civilized to commit).



Dave, sorry, but you are wrong. This war is part and parcel of the war with AQ. I think a lot of people (ie, most) misunderstand exactly what Al Qaeda is. It isn't a monolithic organization. Originally (circa 1988 or 1989), it started as an alliance between various terrorist organizations. More than anything else, Al Qaeda is an IDEOLOGY born from the roots of the Muslim Brotherhood and Wahhabism. This is the ideology that has been quiety sweeping the Muslim world since the 1920's, and has dramatically picked up steam since the 1980s.

Their general strategy is this:
- in majority Islamic countries, throw out secular leaders and replace them with theocratic leaders.
- replace secular laws with laws based on the Sharia, or the Sharia itself.
- re-implement the poll tax for people of the book (but non-Muslims).
- slaughter pagans (ie, Sudan).
- slaughter heretics (ie, Algeria where the GIA killed upwards of half a million Muslims).
- in minority Islamic countries, foster the islamisation and radicalization of the Muslim population by simulatenously committing terrorist acts (to terrorize the non-Muslim population and create the inevitable backlash against Muslims) and subsidizing mosques where the defense of Islam is preached.
- foster "independence" movements for Muslims where they are the minority in their country, like in the Phillipines or Serbia, or Thailand. This is more or less what is happening in Chechnya, although the Chechen conflict predates the "grand strategy" by several decades.

The problem Russia has is that if they give up Chechnya, Ossetia and Ingueshita will get rolled up right after. Basayev doesn't envision an independent Chechnya, he sees himself as eventual ruler of a Muslim Caucaus empire.

Another reason why Chechnya is part of the war against AQ is that AQ has taken the Chechen cause upon themselves, and use that as justification for attacks against Western (and US) civilians...because we didn't intervene to save the Muslim civilians, we are responsible.

* * *

Regarding the Chechen conflict, it has deteroriated pretty significantly. When Dudayev was around, it much more of a conventional fight, and the Chechen's fielded forces that resembled military units rather than the terrorist bands they have today. Nowadays it's pro-Russian bandits fighting Jihadist bandits. For my money, I hope the pro-Russian bandits win.



That's one position...

The more sensible one is that AQ sees the Chechen conflict as a chance to destabilize Russia, and feeds it not out of helping their members, but out of accomplishing a goal. Kind of like the war in Nicaragua, where we fed the Contras & the Russians fed teh Sandinistas.

Second, Al Queda was formed out of the Russian invasion of Afghanhistan, they have, shall we say, a perminant beef with Moscow.

AQ, as I see it is feed & fueled by a group of secular middle eastern leaders who are using Queda as a 'national garbage disposal' to get rid of their local revolutionary elements.

Remember, these govts have total control of their populations -> you do not hear, say, do, or read anything they do not want you to. The schools may be run by clerics, but the government controls what is taught and if the school does not teach what they want, you are shut down.

But what do they want?

They want their population to believe that it is foreign 'opression' (presently 'America & Israel
) at fault whenever anything goes wrong. Thus, when the economy sucks, when you can't get a job, and you see your self-appointed leaders living in opulent luxury, you blame America & join Al Queda instead of blaming Her Diktator & storming the palace gates.

Originally, they fed their disaffected to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Then, they sent them to Afghanistan to fight the Russians

Now, they send them to Al Queda to fight US.

The dictators whin as their potential 'opposition' kills itself (why do you think Suicide Bombing was endorsed? For religeous reasons? Ostensibly, but the real reason is that it creates a steady need for recruits, and a suicide terrorist will never come back to hurt the government that created him, he will be dead after his first mission. Another potential revolutionary turned terrorist will take his place, and so on...) for a distorted version of a religeon they have been programmed to believe in, by the very government that is the true source of their problems. They maintain absolute control of the population, and continue to live for themselves & ignore their people. This breeds more disaffected young men who have been probrammed to blame foreigners for their fate... It is compounded by the fact that America, pre Bush, appeased the dictators because it was 'convenient'.

That is what grew and maintains Al Queda. The propaganda about restoring the Caliphate & spreading Islamic Law is as relevant as the Methamphetimine the Nazis fed their troops... It is propaganda, no more, no less. A tool to control pawns... The pawns believe it is truth (that would be Osama and everyone beneath him), but those who actually have the power do not (most are not Muslim in any practical sense of the word)... They think they're fighitng for world-wide Islam, but the fact is they are merely serving to preserve the corrupt governments of the middle east by serving as pressure relief...

Same goes for the local population.They believe what they are told to believe, just like 1984. Most are as 'Muslim' as Americans are "Christian' (eg just barely), and given freedom, will sieze it to their best advantage. This is why liberation, not obliteration, is the only solution

Now, back to Chechnya. In the beginning, it was merely a rebellion. Now it has become a separateist terror movement. The reason for the transition is how the war was initially fought.

Both sides were & are equally brutal, which lead to the transformation from a proper political war to a blood feud, a hate-war where both sides fight not for achievable political goals, but to see how high they can rack the body count. It is a vendetta, not a civilizerd war, and as such cannot be won at this point. They can only keep killing eachother untill they get sick of it, and each new attack by either side pushes that 'sick of it' date further back, inspiring cries for revenge from the attacked & repeating the cycke as each side attempts to see who can outbrutalize the other...

Contrast this to how WE fight, and you will see the difference.

We are at war with a totalitarian ideology, attempting to convert the enemy's civillians to our system, the same way we did in the Cold War.

Russia is at war with an entire ethnic group, simply doing as much damage as they can, never mind the consequences.

We can win.

They can't.

And if they (Russia) ever becomes associated with OUR war, they may well hurt our chances of victory as well

There is no place for barbarisim or terrorisim in the coalition, as we really ARE engaged in a war for people's minds.

Once again, back to the Cold War. We have experience WINNING an Ideological war. T

he Russians have experience LOOSING 2 of them (with us, and with the Afghanis)...
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:09:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By XJ:
Did anyone catch the how prepared these guys were, they stashed weapons underneath the floor in advance of the attack. Also had gas masks, two-way radio, and their own dogs!

"They knew the geography of the school grounds like their own backyard," the chief spokesman for Russia's Federal Security Service, Sergei N. Ignatchenko, said in a telephone interview on Saturday. "This allowed them to choose sniper positions and place booby-traps on all possible access routes."




What do you expect, they are home grown rebels...

This is yet another reason why we'll never see an attack like this here. We do not have the home grown separatist movement neccicary for it to happen.

Compare this to the preparations needed to truck-bomb a building...

It is not US who should be worried about THAT happening here...

It is thr RUSSIANS who should be worried that the Chechens will graduate from petty-ante separatist bullshit to knocking down buildings...

100 terrorists is 20 strike teams, guys... If Al Queda had done that large of an op, we'd be talking about 10-20 collapsed buildings scattered around the country....

Instead, the Chechens do it their way, take hostages (they were trying to gain the freedom of some captured terrorists), and fortunately for the Russians only manage a death toll of 300.

If those were AQ men under AQ command, the toll would be higher and the actual carnage alot less 'personal'.

The manner in which the attack was carried out also emphasizes a local operation. Al Queda does not rape, slash, and shoot. They employ explosive sabotage against major structural targets, aiming for destruction & body count.

This isn't a professional operation, this is ethnicly/politically motivated revenge - like Rwanda, like Yugoslavia, like Colombia....
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:35:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 2:38:26 PM EST by Jeepster]

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

If those were AQ men under AQ command, the toll would be higher and the actual carnage alot less 'personal'.

The manner in which the attack was carried out also emphasizes a local operation. Al Queda does not rape, slash, and shoot. They employ explosive sabotage against major structural targets, aiming for destruction & body count.




I love to hear people on TV and the Internet go on about the things AQ will and won't do. They are terrorists. To think rape is beneath them is insane. Their MO is to sift through the dregs of Muslim communities throughout the world, find the most unhinged and dissaffected and then provide them with the means to carry out attacks against targets of opportunity with leadership and means appropriate to the task. 9/11 was a unique case. To think that they preselected the Bali nightclubs, the Keynan and Tanzanian Embassies or the Beslan school is mistaken, IMHO. They most likely had identified useful recruits local to the scene, determined that an operation was feasible and then identified a target of opportunity, came up with a plan and got the resources needed. I think the Shoebomber and the Beltway Snipers are examples of this pattern.

To think AQ will turn away a potential recruit because they happen to be a rapist is stupid.
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