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Posted: 10/23/2004 6:43:55 AM EST
Its about time the Army revises its policy on who gets the CIB and similar combat badges (combat medic, etc...).

In the old days, when there was actually a front line on the battlefield, I could understand giveing CIBs to only infantry. But now, in places like Iraq, there really is no "front line" and other MOSs are seeing combat--some of them alot of combat. Those people need to be given some type of badge. For example, 96Rs are not doing traditional 96R duties, but are now providing security and many are seeing action--why should't they get a badge? I am not saying issue the CIB to other MOSs--after all CIB is an Infantry badge--but give them something similar.


By the way, back in the day when I attended school on Sand Hill, I would have said no F'n way to this, but the times and the nature of war has changed. The Army needs to re-look at this policy an update 670-1.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 6:48:43 AM EST
There's too much bling-bling on Army uniforms as it is...They're starting to look like cub scout uniforms. I say let the Infantry keep their unique badges-and the former commanding general of the Armor school agreed, when he quashed efforts for a combat armor badge a couple years ago.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 6:52:07 AM EST
In Combat Arms, isn't the "combat" implied???
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 6:56:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By whoanelly:
There's too much bling-bling on Army uniforms as it is...They're starting to look like cub scout uniforms. I say let the Infantry keep their unique badges-and the former commanding general of the Armor school agreed, when he quashed efforts for a combat armor badge a couple years ago.




Give me a break. You know as well as I do (hopefully) that after O-6, officers are nothing more than politicians in uniform--extreme yes men! I don't know if what you say is true about the head armor guy, but I do know that the head engineer lobbied hard, and ultimately got the SAPPER badge for engineers. It boils down to doing what is right for the troops. Those pampered princes (as Hackworth calls them) need to start doing more for the troops . . . . .
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:00:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By JPPJ:

Originally Posted By whoanelly:
There's too much bling-bling on Army uniforms as it is...They're starting to look like cub scout uniforms. I say let the Infantry keep their unique badges-and the former commanding general of the Armor school agreed, when he quashed efforts for a combat armor badge a couple years ago.




Give me a break. You know as well as I do (hopefully) that after O-6, officers are nothing more than politicians in uniform--extreme yes men! I don't know if what you say is true about the head armor guy, but I do know that the head engineer lobbied hard, and ultimately got the SAPPER badge for engineers. It boils down to doing what is right for the troops. Those pampered princes (as Hackworth calls them) need to start doing more for the troops . . . . .



First, it is a Sapper TAB, not badge, and second it is a recognition of completion of a school, not a CIB type award.

And if you keep listening to Hackworth your brain will rot.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:03:50 AM EST
the entire time I spent in the service..the rumors never subsided. We all wanted a combat armor badge.

I know of a person who was 11M(Infantry Bradley Crewman) during Desert Storm. The unit was short on HEMIT drivers and they needed someone to drive a fueler. He spent all three campaigns as a fueler.
He received a CIB. HE didnt shoot shit or get shot at. His grunt buddies did. HE still got one.
This is just like PAC clerks getting silver stars...it is all politcal bullsh*t.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:06:15 AM EST
They do get one. It's called a combat patch on your right shoulder.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:07:01 AM EST
If anything they should make some different badge, not the 'cib" though as that's exclusive to the infantry. Maybe just the cb.
Didn't think they should have gone to black berets for everyone and done that to the rangers either, cib's to everyone would be along those lines it seems.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:08:04 AM EST
"By the way, back in the day when I attended school on Sand Hill"

"sand hill" lol, ..."harmony church" my man, now that was the place.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:08:32 AM EST
Ask any non-infantry soldier why they are not infantry, and they will say something along the lines of:
"why the hell would I put myself through that misery?"
The combat infantry badge was designed to reward the grunts who slogged through month after month of continuous fighting (see Band of Brothers), in every terrain and weather condition.
Even now, the military must be prepared for every type of warfighting environment. MOUT is what we see now, in Iraq. That does not mean that infantry does not bear the brunt of the fighting, or that infantry will not have to fight in the jungle, desert, arctic, etc. environments in the future, in misisons where they patrol with 90 pound packs, on two hours of sleep a day (if they're lucky), and face death 24-7. No other MOS does what they (we) do.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:09:32 AM EST
"It's called a combat patch on your right shoulder"

yeah but isn't the unit badge on the right shoulder just for being with a unit in a combat zone, not neccessarily being in combat?
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:12:44 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:13:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
"It's called a combat patch on your right shoulder"

yeah but isn't the unit badge on the right shoulder just for being with a unit in a combat zone, not neccessarily being in combat?



Yes, and that's good enough.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:14:04 AM EST


yeah but isn't the unit badge on the right shoulder just for being with a unit in a combat zone, not neccessarily being in combat?



Yes, it means you served in a combat zone, which is an Honorable thing for anyone to wear. The military is also developing a combat action ribbon for anyone, in any MOS or service, who served in documented combat.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:16:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 7:20:55 AM EST by RAMBOSKY]
Even in WWII, Korea, Vietnam there were non Infantry MOS troops in harms way that were under attack on a constant basis. When I was at the Base Camp of the 1st Inf. in Quan Loi Vietnam, I would rather be out in the field on S&D operations than a sitting duck having a rocket attack at least once a day by Charlie aimed at the Base Camp.

That said.......................I think we should leave things alone. A Grunt should have that special recognition since it is his job to seek out, close and destroy the enemy. That's what he's trained for, not cooking, issuing supplies, fixing vehicles, etc................and yes they get shot at also but it's incidental and not mandatory like an 11B or 1542 is.

Non Grunts can still get medals for brave actions in a combat area. I don't see a problem therefore it doesn't need fixing.

Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:21:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By QCMGR:

Originally Posted By JPPJ:
.....By the way, back in the day when I attended school on Sand Hill, I would have said no F'n way to this, but the times and the nature of war has changed. The Army needs to re-look at this policy an update 670-1.



Great! Next thing you will want everyone to wear a beret.



Beat me to it.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:27:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:

Originally Posted By JPPJ:

Originally Posted By whoanelly:
There's too much bling-bling on Army uniforms as it is...They're starting to look like cub scout uniforms. I say let the Infantry keep their unique badges-and the former commanding general of the Armor school agreed, when he quashed efforts for a combat armor badge a couple years ago.




Give me a break. You know as well as I do (hopefully) that after O-6, officers are nothing more than politicians in uniform--extreme yes men! I don't know if what you say is true about the head armor guy, but I do know that the head engineer lobbied hard, and ultimately got the SAPPER badge for engineers. It boils down to doing what is right for the troops. Those pampered princes (as Hackworth calls them) need to start doing more for the troops . . . . .




First, it is a Sapper TAB, not badge, and second it is a recognition of completion of a school, not a CIB type award.

And if you keep listening to Hackworth your brain will rot.





OK. I though the analogy would be obvious, but since it was not obvious to you, I'll explain it to you like you are a five year old:

JUST AS THE ARMY'S CHIEF ENGINEER LOBBIED FOR A TAB FOR ENGINEERS (b/c Sapper school is a tab worthy school), THE CHIEFS OF OTHER BRANCHES WHOSE TROOPS SEE FREQUENT COMBAT (like MI, EN, AR, AV, etc.) NEED TO LOBBY FOR A COMBAT BADGE.


Hackworth was more of a soldier than you or I will ever be . . . .

Lastly, don't even get me started on the combat patch issue . . . . For example, I would have allowed the combat patch for those who served in Bosnia. Some of these trooops saw more action than those in Afgan.--and have nothing to show for it.

Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:33:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 7:41:35 AM EST by eodtech2000]
Leave the CIB and Combat Medic Badges the way they are. What's next a Combat EOD badge, a Combat Suppy Clerk Badge, etc.

I have known quite a few Infantrymen who were far prouder of their earning a EIB (Expert Infantry Badge) than the CIB they recieved.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:40:54 AM EST
Fuck 'em. You want a CIB? Join the Infantry or go piss up a rope.

Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:43:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By JPPJ:




OK. I though the analogy would be obvious, but since it was not obvious to you, I'll explain it to you like you are a five year old:

JUST AS THE ARMY'S CHIEF ENGINEER LOBBIED FOR A TAB FOR ENGINEERS (b/c Sapper school is a tab worthy school), THE CHIEFS OF OTHER BRANCHES WHOSE TROOPS SEE FREQUENT COMBAT (like MI, EN, AR, AV, etc.) NEED TO LOBBY FOR A COMBAT BADGE.


Hackworth was more of a soldier than you or I will ever be . . . .

Lastly, don't even get me started on the combat patch issue . . . . For example, I would have allowed the combat patch for those who served in Bosnia. Some of these trooops saw more action than those in Afgan.--and have nothing to show for it.




Hackworth was a helluva soldier, no doubt, but once he got is 214 he converted to asshat pundit.

I still say leave it as it is. Most of the 21B's in my unit feel the same way.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:44:02 AM EST
I think the army is too badge-happy. Badges should be reserved for the class A uniform. Leave the BDU's plain except for rank, name & service, the way the Marines are (or used to be anyway) Maybe a unit patch, too.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:49:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 8:01:38 AM EST by TRW]
I was upset and disappointed to learn from my son, that COMBAT engineers don't even qualify for the CIB.

Edited to add:

As for the bling-bling factor.....

I saw the same thing in the Air Force though when the AMMO guys wanted to create an "AMMO" badge similar to the EOD badge. The skinny was that if they approved an AMMO badge for ammo guys then they would have to approve a supply badge for the supply weenies, medical badge badge for medical field, etc, etc. The AMMO badge evenyually became a "Maintenance" Badge and was then worn by about 20 different AFSCs.

With everyone now wearing an AFSC related badge, it all is just bling-bling as stated. Add to that all the useless ribbons like the AF training ribbon, Overseas long and short ribbons, and the longevity ribbon and it just gets stupid. Out of the 13 ribbons/medals I got, only about 5 mean shit to me. The rest are all stupid filler for a ribbon rack.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 7:56:23 AM EST
The CIB was started to give a little extra reward to infantrymen who in WWI and WWII suffered much higher rates of casulaties. Remember in 1944 some US Army divisions had 400-500 percent casualties in their infantry battalions. Nothing close to that in artillery or even attached tank battalions.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 8:05:12 AM EST
Anybody who wants a CIB can join the INFANTRY.

It is currently (and always will be during wartime) a critical shortage MOS.

Special "badges" for infantry personnel, at their root, are just for that reason - recognizing those who are willing to do what others do not want to. Rigth now, the only MOS that has any ground to stand on for special recognition is our 88M's - since truck drivers are also a critically short MOS ans we can't get enough volunteers to run these missions.

As Rambosky said, other MOS's have ALWAYS been in the thick of things. It is only, ironically, asshats like Hackworth that like to imply that only the infantry is at risk and important (he refers to everything else as "useless tail"). It isn't the infantry that is tasked to unstick a stuck tank under fire - recovery ops are done my mechanics. Tankers and Artillerymen have often seen MORE combat and incoming fire than the infantry. Truck drivers are the major targets of enemy interdictions of supply lines.

Folks like whoanelly may act like blowhards and be 100% wrong, because they do not see what the other MOS's do - or somehow miss the other MOS's participating in their own operations (FOs, EOD, etc.) - but the reality is that giving the infantry a chance to be blowhards is what the CIB is all about.

Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 8:06:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By TRW:
I was upset and disappointed to learn from my son, that COMBAT engineers don't even qualify for the CIB.

Edited to add:

As for the bling-bling factor.....

I saw the same thing in the Air Force though when the AMMO guys wanted to create an "AMMO" badge similar to the EOD badge. The skinny was that if they approved an AMMO badge for ammo guys then they would have to approve a supply badge for the supply weenies, medical badge badge for medical field, etc, etc. The AMMO badge evenyually became a "Maintenance" Badge and was then worn by about 20 different AFSCs.

With everyone now wearing an AFSC related badge, it all is just bling-bling as stated. Add to that all the useless ribbons like the AF training ribbon, Overseas long and short ribbons, and the longevity ribbon and it just gets stupid. Out of the 13 ribbons/medals I got, only about 5 mean shit to me. The rest are all stupid filler for a ribbon rack.



What happened to the AF is a perfect example of what he Army has to AVOID.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 8:08:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By TRW:
I was upset and disappointed to learn from my son, that COMBAT engineers don't even qualify for the CIB.



Its the combat infantry badge... why should anyone but the infantry qualify for it?

Just because I put a bandage on someone during a firefight, I sure as hell shouldn't get the combat medic badge. So some pogues in a firefight... he doesn't deserve an infantry badge for it.

I think all the combat _____ badges are overkill. So someone was in the right place at the right time... big deal. I'll take more pride in my EIB (if I get it next week) than the CIB I'll undoubtedly have within the next year.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 8:17:50 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 8:18:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 8:25:19 AM EST by reconBYfire]

Originally Posted By whoanelly:
Ask any non-infantry soldier why they are not infantry, and they will say something along the lines of:
"why the hell would I put myself through that misery?"
The combat infantry badge was designed to reward the grunts who slogged through month after month of continuous fighting (see Band of Brothers), in every terrain and weather condition.
Even now, the military must be prepared for every type of warfighting environment. MOUT is what we see now, in Iraq. That does not mean that infantry does not bear the brunt of the fighting, or that infantry will not have to fight in the jungle, desert, arctic, etc. environments in the future, in misisons where they patrol with 90 pound packs, on two hours of sleep a day (if they're lucky), and face death 24-7. No other MOS does what they (we) do.





3 years of my 10 years in the service was in a light infantry division...

Who searched for the enemy? Who conducted Pathfinder operations for the Aviation Brigades? Who performed recon missions so others may find their way true? Who used explosives so bridges can be blown slowing the enemy advance? Who was air inserted to set up a forward OP and then SPIES rigged out under enemy fire? Whose rucksack weighed so much that 2 people had to lift the damn thing so one can wear it? IT WASNT THE F*CKIN INFANTRY!!!!!

Point is.....grunts 11series arent the only hardcore junkies out there.

I am proud of all who serve(d)...I am more proud of those in a combat MOS.

It is great to be proud of a job or MOS......just dont belittle the others by providing false information. false information because YES, there other MOSs that do what you, 11series,
do, and MORE in the same or different fashion.

Some people need to look to the outside and truly see what other MOSs are contibuting to the operation.

EDIT: As for the CIB, see my post on page 1. Sure, it is a symbol of honour. For those that truly earn(ed) it.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 8:27:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 11:49:13 AM EST by RAMBOSKY]
Damn, it really bothers me to see "family" fighting. As military and ex military we are all brothers. To me medals, badges, patches are just souvenirs of being there and doing that. Where ever and what ever we did. We are all part of a team and need each other (all MOS's) in order to accomplish the mission. Hell, I'd been just as proud if they had just given me the T-Shirt.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 9:24:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By Steve_T_M:
I think the army is too badge-happy. Badges should be reserved for the class A uniform. Leave the BDU's plain except for rank, name & service, the way the Marines are (or used to be anyway) Maybe a unit patch, too.




I'd agree with this route too. Either make if fair for all, or do away with everything on BDUs. Answer me this: why the hell did it take so damn long for the ENs to get their SAPPER tab? I think there are plenty of Sappers out there that would argue that their tab-qualifying course is just as "qualifying" as what those who wear the President's Hundred tab have to do (achieve).
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 9:43:17 AM EST
The CIB is for Combat Infantry, not anyone else.

That being said, the Army should re-look at units that have been re-assigned from their traditional roles into what have traditionally been Infantry missions in the current conflict, and if the unit is serving in a Combat Infantry role, then award of the CIB to persons in that unit who are serving in an infantry role and meet the other criteria for the award would be appropriate.

Remember when feminist Congresspersons lobbied for an Army MP officer to get the CIB after Panama because she was in rather stiff fire fight (I think near some dog kennels) and were soundly shot down by the Army because MPs aren't Infantry. Let's not re-live that little fiasco.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 9:46:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By JPPJ:

Originally Posted By Steve_T_M:
I think the army is too badge-happy. Badges should be reserved for the class A uniform. Leave the BDU's plain except for rank, name & service, the way the Marines are (or used to be anyway) Maybe a unit patch, too.




I'd agree with this route too. Either make if fair for all, or do away with everything on BDUs. Answer me this: why the hell did it take so damn long for the ENs to get their SAPPER tab? I think there are plenty of Sappers out there that would argue that their tab-qualifying course is just as "qualifying" as what those who wear the President's Hundred tab have to do (achieve).



The President's 100 tab is the most "pure" tab we have. It is not dependent on accident of MOS or duty station, or what contract you were able to get at MEPs. It is not dependent on some instructor who decides you WILL NOT pass the school in question, despite your merit.

ANYBODY who thinks they can, can PUT UP, OR SHUT UP. Just take leave in any August and shoot the match on your own time, and on your own dime.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 9:46:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:

Originally Posted By dskeet:
I'll take more pride in my EIB (if I get it next week) than the CIB I'll undoubtedly have within the next year.



I seriously doubt that.




+2

As someone who has earned both the EIB as well as The CIB, trust me you will be alot prouder to earn a the CIB than the the EIB. Earning the EIB is great, but its just a series of tests which if you fail you get to take again at a later date. In combat, if you fail the test, you die...big fucking difference.

IF YOU AIN'T INFANTRY....YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A REMF
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 9:49:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:

Originally Posted By dskeet:
I'll take more pride in my EIB (if I get it next week) than the CIB I'll undoubtedly have within the next year.



I seriously doubt that.




I've known several like that. Many because they saw very little action, and others because they said every idiot they were with also got a CIB, but not every idiot could get the EIB.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 9:53:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By DSVET91:
...
IF YOU AIN'T INFANTRY....YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A REMF





Hackworth.com is calling out to you...
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 9:56:32 AM EST
It's called the Combat Infantrymans Badge for a reason.

Not belittling other MOS's contributions. But it is a 11B badge.
Why not give Para Rescue wings to Army Airborne, they parachute also.
When do you say, enough is enough.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 10:00:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By JPPJ:

Originally Posted By Steve_T_M:
I think the army is too badge-happy. Badges should be reserved for the class A uniform. Leave the BDU's plain except for rank, name & service, the way the Marines are (or used to be anyway) Maybe a unit patch, too.




I'd agree with this route too. Either make if fair for all, or do away with everything on BDUs. Answer me this: why the hell did it take so damn long for the ENs to get their SAPPER tab? I think there are plenty of Sappers out there that would argue that their tab-qualifying course is just as "qualifying" as what those who wear the President's Hundred tab have to do (achieve).



There are not plenty of Sapper qualified soldiers out there. Not many at all.

The only rarer tab is the presidents 100, and Adam and I agree on that one. The P100 is also the only tab you can earn before you even enlist. But technically it is actually a marksmenship badge that just happens to be worn as a tab................
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 10:05:31 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 10:12:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 10:14:20 AM EST by Cincinnatus]

Originally Posted By JPPJ:
Originally Posted By whoanelly:
Those pampered princes (as Hackworth calls them) need to start doing more for the troops . . . . .


Colonel Hackworth refers to Colonels as "pampered princes"?

I guess he doesn't include himself in that description, because HE's so special.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 10:46:35 AM EST
tag
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 10:56:43 AM EST
I hear John Kerry has applied for his as we speak..........
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:05:16 AM EST
I gots mine.

Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:19:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By Adam_White:

Originally Posted By DSVET91:
...
IF YOU AIN'T INFANTRY....YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A REMF





Hackworth.com is calling out to you...




Must be a Remf...probably a nasty leg as well.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:21:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By DSVET91:

Originally Posted By Adam_White:

Originally Posted By DSVET91:
...
IF YOU AIN'T INFANTRY....YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A REMF





Hackworth.com is calling out to you...




Must be a Remf...probably a nasty leg as well.





Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:26:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2004 11:27:59 AM EST by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:33:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By whoanelly:
There's too much bling-bling on Army uniforms as it is...They're starting to look like cub scout uniforms. I say let the Infantry keep their unique badges-and the former commanding general of the Armor school agreed, when he quashed efforts for a combat armor badge a couple years ago.



You just said "Bling Bling"?
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:33:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By RAMBOSKY:
Even in WWII, Korea, Vietnam there were non Infantry MOS troops in harms way that were under attack on a constant basis. When I was at the Base Camp of the 1st Inf. in Quan Loi Vietnam, I would rather be out in the field on S&D operations than a sitting duck having a rocket attack at least once a day by Charlie aimed at the Base Camp.



+1
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:41:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By DSVET91:

IF YOU AIN'T INFANTRY....YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A REMF




SURE!


That MUST have been why my team ran 40 missions in 30 days ALL OVER Iraq. And we did it with NO body Armor, NO armored vehicles, NO crew served weapons or grenades, and NO back-up. The heaviest caliber weapons we had were 2 AK's that we captured.

REMF my A$$!!
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:47:16 AM EST
Adam White, I didn't mean for my comment to make me sound like a blowhard, I was clarifying the reason why the Army only awards the CIB to infantry. I understand your reasoning behind the statement though, and I do appreciate the contributions that other MOS's make. Perhaps I should have inserted that disclaimer in my original post.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:48:50 AM EST





Link Posted: 10/23/2004 11:58:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
And if you keep listening to Hackworth your brain will rot.



ROFLMAO -


Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Didn't think they should have gone to black berets for everyone and done that to the rangers either, cib's to everyone would be along those lines it seems.



+1


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