It’s over. We’ve already lost.

The media has already caved, and once the media chooses to downplay what has happened, most people will begin to forget what they were so upset about.

Already the people that call for “understanding” why the WTC was attacked are getting more and more air time. The government will continue to tone down their reaction. We may even successfully capture bin laden; it doesn’t matter.

The people that make these attacks are religious fundamentalists. They don’t read our newspapers or watch our television. Their leaders do, and that’s how they know how to attack us.

When we successfully capture bin Laden they will say to their people “Look how the actions of 20 men killed 7000 Americans, brought down their economy, and have the American people shaking in fear.  Look at how they now negotiate with nations with whom they wouldn’t give the time of day. Look at how their government now takes away the freedoms their people have so long enjoyed. We are winning. And the next attack will make it even worse for them. They will continue to take revenge only on the few who attack them directly and will make more concessions to the rest of us.”

We, as a people, lack the will to deal with the religious terrorist. Their culture is not understandable to most in the US and can’t be explained in 30-second sound bites. Most don’t realize that this is a war about which cultures will survive; theirs or everyone else’s.

There are those, here on this board, and in the general public and government who firmly believe that this attack is the direct result of our support of Israel; that if we just retreated behind our own borders, these things wouldn’t happen. They may be partially right, but they don’t understand what they are asking for. The American culture has permeated the world, and Nike has done more to tarnish American’s in the eyes of most of the world than anything Israel has ever done. But we have to deal with the rest of the world, we shouldn’t become an armed camp that guards its borders and ignores what happens around us. That’s unrealistic, and likely impossible. The WTC attack was the first strike on US soil in a battle for cultural dominance.

Christian religious fundamental extremists in this country are blinded to their own commonality with the Islamic terrorists. Not that they are terrorists themselves, but they are just as firmly convinced that only their personal or group religious view is the correct one, and the excoriate anyone who disagrees with them. Since they are of a Western culture mindset, they wouldn’t think of hijacking a plane and killing themselves while they take the “infidels” with them. But they wouldn’t really object to setting a synagogue (or any other non-Christian (including, for the most extreme, Catholic) place of worship) on fire, if they thought they could get away with it. After all, it just is a breeding ground for non-Christian beliefs and prevents the return of their Messiah.  Most of these Christians believe that it’s perfectly OK to foist Christian beliefs on non-Christians. After all, it’s for their own good, right? Don’t bother arguing that no “Christian” would do such a thing. I’ve been on the receiving end. All you can tell me is that you “personally” wouldn’t do such a thing.

Our way of life, here in the US, is doomed. Far too many people believe that they have the right to control the lives of others, be they religious fundamentalists, hard-core liberals, government workers, or our elected officials. Most of the posts here display that same kind of thought; our view is the right view and the hell with anyone else.

We shouldn’t be attacking bin Laden; we should be attacking the culture that breeds that mindset and making it understand that we will not stand for this behavior. That we won’t let it change the way we choose to live. If they wish to kill each other, that’s their own responsibility. But when they choose to involve us in their schoolyard games they get a reaction in no uncertain terms. Bush got it right with his “harboring terrorists” condemnation. It’s a shame we won’t act that way.

Then we need to look within and examine the seeds of these same behaviors in our own culture. Allow diverse opinions to grow and be respected. But make it perfectly clear to one and all that their right to throw a punch (physically or metaphorically) ends 1/4 “ from their neighbors face.

DavidC, I think you are absolutely right.  But I'm hopeful that there is a new America on its way, one that resembles the one that was lost a long time before either of us were born.  It's going to take a hell of a lot of work to get there, but if you notice, our grand federal government with its supposedly infinite powers is now hamstrung and unable to accomplish anything.  It is dying, despite all the thrashing and saber rattling.  

I think most Americans are total cowards.  Even gun owners. It wouldn't take anything to stand up against the jerks who pass all these ridiculous laws and make them toe the line.  But it never seems to happen.  Like the poor Jews who let themselves be led off to the "showers" America is now suffering from the same decadence and cultural stagnation brought on by too many years of welfare statism, tinkering with free markets, and preferential treatment allowing big companies to hold virtual monopolies in nearly every industry.  No one has any personal sense of responsibility anymore.

Let me make it clear that I hope we kick bin Laden's fucking ass.  But that alone won't change anything.  In fact, the terror will oly increase.  

Me?  I'm waiting for a state to secede and declare free trade and minimal taxes, minimal government control, etc.  It's the only way out without a bloody civil war.  I refuse to accept European style socialism and authoritarianism.  It's destructive and will eventually cave in as well.  I guess I'll be waiting a long time with so many lefties everywhere.  

Last night I saw a documentary on the Russian mafia. I realized that the only difference between mafia control and government control is that we supposedly vote for our leaders in government.  The amount of brutality is startlingly similar, and so are the protection rates.  Hell, our CIA has been involved in drug running, gun running, you name it.  The black market is just another economy, except the little peopel aren't allowed to play.  Hey, just like owning machine guns!  What a surprise!  

I've never felt more like a member of the permanent underclass than I do right now.  Whether you are talk about gun laws, speed limits, taxation, or what.  There is a group of elitists who feed off of the body of the people and are above the law.  It's time for that to stop.  

Hey trickshot, I'm glad America has you on its side.  Not!!!  Dude, where the hell do you get off calling most American's cowards?  Who the F*CK are you and what have you done for this country other than critise it.  And Davidc, I'm glad you've allready declared a war lost that hasn't even started yet.  You two, IMHO, sound like two SUPERLOSERS.  Get a life both of you.  I'm sure the US will find it's way through this troubled time and do it without you two's help.

... I don't know. Look what these gutless p*ssies have to say:[url]http://www.nypost.com/commentary/5487.htm[/url]

Every time you feel like the country's forgetting, you lose that sickening feeling in your gut, read this:

[b]NEW YORK (AP) -- The following are 911 computer entries, made from 8:47 a.m. on September 11 as call after desperate call rolled in from the World Trade Center.

The excerpts from the log of the dispatcher for the Fire Department's Emergency Management Service were published Sunday in New York's Daily News.

The entries were published much as they appeared when they flashed on the computer screen. The time of each call is noted, and messages are abbreviated -- MC stands for male caller, FC for female caller, STS for "states".

08:50:12 MC STS -- PLANE JUST FLEW INTO WORLD TRADE CENTER---POSS COMMERCIAL AIRPLANE.

Then the calls began pouring in from One World Trade Center.

08:56:44 MC STS -- HE IS ON THE 87 FLR--STS 4 PERSON THERE W HIM--STS THERE IS FIRE.

08:57:26 PEOPLE SCREAMING IN BACKGROUND--STS -- CANNOT BREATHE---POSS SMOKE COMING THRU DOOR--FLR 103...TRAPPED.

09:04:50 MC STS -- 103 FLR-CAN'T GET OUT--FIRE ON FLR...PEOPLE GETTING SICK

A report from the police aviation unit came in, saying people were falling from the building.

09:07:51 SECOND PLANE HIT THE SECOND BUILDING ... UNK EXTENT OF INJ.

09:09:14 MC STATES -- 2 WTC PEOPLE ARE JUMPING OUT OF THE SIDE OF A LRG HOLE---POSS NO ONE CATCHING THEM.

09:12:18 MC STS -- ON 106 FLR ABOUT 100 PEOPLE IN ROOM--NEED DIRECTIONS ON HOW TO STAY ALIVE.

09:17:39 MC STS ON 105 FLR -- STAIRS COLLAPSE

09:36:33 FC STS -- THEY ARE STUCK THEY ARE STUCK IN THE ELEVATOR...STS THEY ARE DYING.

09:47:15 FC STS -- 2 WTC FLR105. FLOOR UNDERNEATH HER -- COLLAPSE.

09:49:21 1 WTC 20 PEOPLE ON THE TOP WAVING. THEY ARE ALIVE PLEASE SEND HELP.

10:00:34 WORLD TRADE CENTER HAS COLLAPSED.

Suddenly all calls from that building ended. Calls from the north tower continued.

10:12:35 MC STS -- HE CAN BARELY BREATHE. 105TH FLR

The calls ended at 10:33 a.m. as abruptly as they had begun, with a horrifying final note: "ENTIRE TOWER DOWN."
[/b]

An observation: We are not cowards, but many have been lulled into a false sense of security.  "Why would anyone need an AK-47?"  "UZI's shouldn't be owned by citizens!"  "I'm a hunter, and I don't see why you'd need an AR-15!"  Get the point?  

A lot of US citizens, ourselves included, seem more adept at bitching than problem solving.  Like it or not, DavidC and Trickshot have a point.  As a collective, we'd all rather sit back and be safe than have to deal with the unknown.  It's not necessarily how you feel, and certainly not the way I feel, but the majority of Americans aren't like you or I.

Our elected officials care less about representing our interest and more about governing us and our lives.

God Bless Texas

That's what we've been taught to expect.

Look at them right now, they won't even trust the pilots to protect us with weapons.  "Let the professionals do it".

They treat us like children and Joe Average Citizen responds in kind.  Let the professionals restrict your freedoms, shred the constitution, and when they tell you that you are safe, you can now sleep at night.

To be a coward, you would have to retreat from action due to fear.  The American Citizen isn't being called to action, hence there is no cowardize.

Good post DavidC, but i would just like to point out the being "fundamentalist" istself is not a bad thing. if one does not hold to their core belief's of their faith, then they are not fundamental. if one does not hold their their fatith's core principals, then they are a different religion.

in other words, if one is not "fundamental" then they do not beleive in anything that they profess. "fundamentalist" -root word: fundamental=basic element.

any extremist that initiates the use of force against others is a terrorist (murderer); to promote social or political change by attempting to cause fear in those that do not hold to same belief. religious or not.

not flaming you david or anything like that, just making a couple points. -lib

The news basically does fine as long as there's something to report. It's when they don't have anything to report that they start with the touchy-feely psychobabble crap.

Hey uncleSAM......wake up yourself!!! Go read on www. newsmax.com some of the columns that explain how political correctness will lose this war for us.  Get the facts!!! Things are really screwed over by all this PC stuff!

You are correct about Political Correctness. It will be the death of this nation as we know it. I have said that for years.

unclesam -

bite me. I've been out there, fighting for my (and your) rights everyday for the last 25 years. What have you been doing? My comments are directed not at those of us who are trying to do something, but the mass of people as a whole.

You may sit on your little bunker, knowing that you're ready for anything, but you're not representative of America. Neither are the people on this board who are trying to do something for their country; they're the exception, not the rule.

People like you are a big part of the problem. Your post indicates one thing; you don't read or comprehend very well.  That's what the current educational system will do for you.

It's time you stick your head out of your hole. I lost friends in the WTC and it really pisses me off to see the way the media and too many "Americans" are starting to react to it.  I was supposed to be in the WTC, presenting at a tech conference, at the time the first plane hit. Only a (fortunate) scheduling conflict kept me away. I'm still waking up at night with a vision of that second plane hitting the tower.

Grow up, take a look around, and learn to read. Then come back and comment.

libertarian -

I agree with you. I was searching for the right term and ended up using "fundamentalist extremist" as a compromise.  I couldn't come up wuith another term that represented "people who's obsession with their own beliefs preclude the acceptance of anything else."  I do not wish to cast aspersions on the concept of "fundamentalist christianity." Those people are entitled to their opinions, too.

I disagree. The news media is not representative of the will of the people.

We will not forget. Throughout our history Americans have always risen to the occasion. We will again. We have no choice.

Man, I wish I could express my views as well as DavidC.  Dude, you write good. Makes one listen, whether or not they agree.

rkbar15 -

One of my neighbors was the pilot of the first plane to hit the WTC. I didn't know him personally, my wife knows his wife to nod at the market kind of deal.  The little local papaers are doing their best to keep people interested and aroused, but I still here the soccer moms at the market talking about how we need to learn to understand why this happened, and not over-react. Then they get in their Expedition, festooned with flags, and drive off. What's wrong with this picture?

I think a lot of us here live in a a very different world from the people that kept voting Clinton into office. We and our friends understand history, understand what it takes to be a world power, and cringe every time we watch the news.

Most of my friends are, like me, little "l" libertarians, even those who don't know what that word means. I think that thre are a lot more of us out there than the politicians and soccer moms would llike to admit. But the very nature of our beliefs makes it tough for us to organize; we don't want to force our way of life on anyone, that violates our beliefs. The ultimate Catch-22.

Of course, if everyone felt that way, we wouldn't be having most of the problems that the world faces.

nobby - thanks for the compliment, I think [:)]

personally, i'm sick of the defeatist attitude.  of course it's lost if everyone has already given up WITHOUT EVEN FINISHING THE FIGHT!!!!!!!!!

i ran across a quote recently, and while i don't have it, it went something like this:

"Evil succeeds only when good men refuse to do anything."

keep in mind the exact quote was much more eloquent but you guys get the idea.  i'm just glad a bunch of guys about 230 years ago didn't think the same way.

Yeesh.  Another one whining "we've lost" even before our country even started.  What the hell are you, French?

Our President, George Bush, doesn't care what the "mainstream media" is saying.  He is following a purposeful, deliberate plan of action.  These things take time.  It took Desert Shield SIX MONTHS to turn to "the Storm".  

The problem with people who think like you do is that if we went 'a-bombing' immediately after the attack, we wouldn't have accomplished anything other than revenge gratification.  Bin Ladin would still be there, Al Queda would still be there, and the camps in Afghanistan (and elsewhere) would still be open for business.

Clearly you are not a patient individual.

And before you start waiving the "bloody shirt" at me, my friend's ex-girlfriend hasn't been heard from for 21 days.  She worked near the towers.  And I knew her well.

I sure as hell have'nt forgot the destruction of 9-11-01.And you can bet your ass OUR PRESIDENT HAS'NT FORGOT either.I personally don't give a rats ass what the rest of the world thinks about the US,UK,Canada+Israel.And I don't think the bleeding hearts can change the focus of our leaders.

ARLady: "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." (Edmund Burke, 1729-1797)

Thanks for the reminder.

ARlady/MIerinMD -

This is not an example of a "defeatest attitude" or "bloody shirt waving." It's a statement on the way the country is behaving. There is no issue of impatience, or even of anyone giving up the fight.

The truth is that people are starting to "put the WTC behind them." They've got their sporting events back, and they are beginning to slip back into their complacent way of life. Why do you think that congress is going to pass laws taking away the rights of citizens. Why do you think that people are lining up for their tatoos.

"Protect us from the . It doesn't matter what I have to give up. I want to feel warm and safe."

Why are you bitching at me? You should be out in the world, raising the hue and cry amongst your neighbors.  That's what I've been trying to do, and I see that dull glazed look come over their eyes. They mouth the right words (sometimes) but they don't really care. The only people that seem to care are those that actually lost a someone or were connected to the WTC. And even some of them are starting to mouth the sheeple creed. They feel guilty about wanting revenge, and the demands of revenge they here from some of thir friends and loved ones make them nervous. "It's not civilized."

They are conditioned to react like this. They don't even realize what they're doing most of the time.

And do you really believe that a "careful, considered response" even one that takes out bin Laden, is a language that these terrorists understand? If so, your deluding yourself.

Bush can take as much time as he likes and is needed to prepare and execute the proper response. But it had better be swift, sure, and exceedingly ugly if we want the fiends who attacked us to even take note.

There's no question that we will win any battle we choose to engage in. The problem is, right now the sheeple don't have the heart to win the war. And I dread to think what it will take to give them that heart.

Amazingly enough [;)] I totally agree with ARLady.  I am totally sick of the defeatist BS.

yeah!  that's it!

I barely remember Clinton being the president. It seems like a very long time ago.

Out of the ashes of the WTC a statesman will rise. Will it be GWB? I hope so. Time and history will determine that. For now he's all we have.

And let's not forget: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." (George Santayna)

Asked anyone around you any history questions lately?

To speak in cliche -

the WTC was a wake-up call and far too many people are already hitting the snooze button.

Rather than considering my post a defeatist statement you should consider it a challenge; get out there, challenge the complacency of your friends, neighbors, co-workers.

If you believe that the country is in danger, you need to be a Paul Revere, but not a Chicken Little. Learn to walk the line that will keep spirits high without getting a deaf ear turned in your direction.

Maybe I'm getting depressed by the reactions I see; too many here are ready to shoot the messenger. I'm not the person who has given up. I'm working hard to keep the reasons we are at war in people's minds, even as they go about their daily living. You should be doing the same. Maybe then we'll see a change in the general attitude that seems to be creeping around the country.

Those first few comments made me sick to my stomach! Thank goodness that one man had the kindness to show us those 911 calls, so we are all reminded of what a horrible day that was! How dare anyone give up, when the fight has just begun???

I am originally from NY, born and raised 60 miles north of NYC. I was in NYC and saw the beauty of those towers just a few short months ago..It has affected me personally, for even though I didn't know anyone personally who died, it still feels like the terrorists violated my home and my country, which they did...

Giving up is what those extremists want!! They want Islam to rule the world, especially Bin Ladin!!! And some people here are practically wanting to give it to him!! Cursing liberals and media etc is nothing compared to having communism or the taliban control you; would you prefer that instead???

We are supposed to stand together in this fight(republican and democrat alike). We must fight that evil before we question our own laws etc, for in the end we are all still free; free to walk these streets, free to buy a gun etc..

A quote suits this time perfectly:
"United we stand, divided we fall"

I am glad that I live in this country and everyone else should too, for in the end, we were attacked becaue we are the best.. So quit your whining or we can send you to see what true poverty and lack of freedoms is like and then you can tell me how that feels..

God Bless America!!!

uncleSAM - I think it's sad that you are trying to shore up your sense of security by calling trickshot names.  BTW - on't EVEN question what I've done for my country.  Folks like DavidC and trickshot need to be heard.  It might not be popular, but I have the courage and honesty to stand by them and say:

THE EMPORER HAS NO CLOTHES!!!!

Quoting two sentences from olyarms415 "You are correct about Political Correctness. It will be the death of this nation as we know it."  True.  Unless something changes, IT IS TRUE.

 
Tate

It seems that there are quite wa few poeple on this site who can read but have comprehension problems; Blonde_BombShell being a perfect example.

Here's the beginning reader version of my original post:

We will lose this war unless the sheeple are shaken from their complacency. This isn't about "you." This isn't about bitching at me for pointing it out. This is about you all taking that energy and directing it where it will do some good. About not letting the media and the professional politicos decide what "we" will see and hear. This is YOUR wakeup call to make sure that you take your concern and use it to motivate those around you.

I'm glad that some of you got pissed off enough to respond; now target that energy where you can make a difference with it.

[size=6][red]KILL KILL KILL![/red][/size=6]

dat betta?

Damn, right about when I am ready to conclude most people on this board are idiots a thread like this comes along.  There really are some sharp people posting, even those foolish enough to disagree with *my* views!

DavidC hits it on the head, although maybe the title, "It's over.  We've lost" sells us a bit short.  He is not defeatist, he is simply observant.  

i see your point and agree with you 100%.  but, and i absolutely do not intend to flame here, couldn't you have used this energy to do something that would make a difference?  i think it's safe to say that you're preaching to the converted here.

not to mention that some people, even if you think they're wrong, may not share your opinion.  and a post that might be seen as inflammatory won't help you make your case.

DavidC, well written. Perhaps there are suggestions that others may have as to an effective way to get people to see what has happened- both their selfishness, and our need to change from lazy, ignorant, self-indulgant sheeple back to being in control of our destiny, both as individuals and as a Nation.
A lot of friends are frustrated that there is no outlet for true patriotism (not the Flag fad type), as the newspapers, media-types will not allow this type of activism without marginalizing it as "Right-Wing Extremism". People do not generally go to see public speakers, unless required to for business or school, of which both institutions have a vested interest in quashing pride, individualism, and self-reliance.

Back on Active Duty (for the next 26 years) in 1 month,
Don Carter
Edited 'cause I fat-fingered "public" and spelled it "piblic"

ARLady -

I spend a lot of my time working on making a difference. Sometimes by educating one person at a time, sometimes by rabble rousing in general.

I do understand that I'm preaching to the choir here, and I might get a bit inflammatory. And I don't believe that my view is the only view; it's just the right one for me.  The only posts that I have made direct attacks in are those in response to the same.

If the post makes people think, that's great. If they respond and they are just knee-jerk reactions, what makes them better than the people that they are always complaining about?

Chairborne Ranger has a good point; my title might be overly pessimistic. But I don't think that changes the validity of my points.

Well said DavidC.

David C,


 First off the media is still talking about the issue, it hasn't gone away, what has gone away is any further news concerning our war.  Hence the Media has nothing to say, but they must still fill up hours and hours and pages of pages of different media (TV/Radio,Papers).  Don't watch CNN , Don't Read the NYpost, If you want to read an Upper level newspaper read the Chicago Tribune. If you watch the news Watch FOX.  I mean I am not telling you what to do , but the treatment is totally different.  Everyones afraid that we will loose our will.  Don't be fooled.  The president said on national TV he was going to be lying to the Taliban, he said that we were going to screw with their minds.  That means that all this conflicting rhetoric you see coming out of washington is by design.  Bush will say one thing,  Powell will say something close to be opposite.  It comes from this point of view.  The Taliban are trying to buy time. They are watching what WE are doing.  The first rule is never care what others are doing only what you are doing. Since they are watching us, we are going to be giving them 20 different pictures of which only one is true.  We are preparing for a War, quickly. No matter what they say in Washington, The Taliban and every middle eastern Terrorist Group is going Down, you See it doesn't matter what they Say, Watch where the Military is going.  ACTIONS NOT WORDS!!! The President has said so himself. Look don't listen.

Ben

If the government and American people give up on the fight some private patriots will take it up.  Just like the people who rebelled on that plane.  Just imagine what we could do if we had one or two rich men backing us?  

"I won't back down."--Tom Petty

GunLvr

The line has been put out by the UN that we must understand.  Understanding is one thing, that is simple. You can even use their own words; they say,"Poverty is the Cause." I say fine, then implement a Republic on each nations soil w/ the ability to own property.  That solution is simple, the understanding comes from history. But you don't have to understand them.  Since they committed this act all that really must be done is they must be destroyed before they can do it again.  This is the first honest to god war we have fought that has the capability to touch our shores in over 50 years. People are afraid, Hell I am afraid for my family.  All the more reason to fight.  As far as ARLady's quote.  I have seen the same thought expressed differently.

My sentiments exactly.
And those four countries would be enough for one good World...hee-hee...everybody gets a continent and a little extra!
Nyah-ah-ah!!!

Seriously, though, this is not a "knee-jerk" war we are engaged in.
Patience, People...
It's our shit and our fan, we're gonna be dishing out some JUSTICE/SweetRevenge in good time.  
They're busted [i]and[/i] fukked and they know it.

Unfortunatly, to coin an old, old phrase:

"Time will tell......."

"History will be the judge."

Study the facts: Logistically it takes a great amount of time to move a large number of troops to that area. The gov't is keeping its cards close to its chest (for once) on what their next step is going to be to confuse the enemy like it is obviously doing to many people on this post.
 Like his father in Desert Storm, I do not see any backing up in Lil George. It was obvious to all that Big George wanted Sadam Hussein's head on a platter but world opinion kept him from that goal. I don't see that mistake happening again.
 It seems they want to mass all their toys in the region to have a nice selection of options before opening the can of whoop-ass. Again this takes time!!! Their patience and planning and controlled emotions do nothing but give me confidence. Wait at least a month before giving up on America and save your emotions for when they will do the most good. During the fight!!!
Chill - Out!!!

After Pearl Harbor,it took 6 months to strike Tokyo,It took the British almost 2 months to move troops and equipment to the Falkland Islands after the invasion.As hard as it is for us to be patient,its harder on the people waiting for the sky to fall down on them.They have been on full alert for 3 weeks.Thats tough on any soldier.