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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 2/7/2002 9:35:30 PM EDT
[url]http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/2621947.htm[/url] Shortly after a Philadelphia policewoman passed around a loaded handgun among students during show-and-tell at a Germantown charter school, the weapon accidentally discharged yesterday afternoon, grazing a 10-year-old boy in the face. The student, fourth grader James Reeves, received five stitches at Temple University Children's Hospital and returned home last night in good condition, while police and school officials continued their investigation into the incident at Imani Education Circle Charter School in Germantown. The officer, Vanessa Carter-Moragne, 39, a five-year veteran assigned to the Ninth Police District in Center City, was removed from street duty and is now the subject of an Internal Affairs investigation, police said. Acting Commissioner Sylvester M. Johnson called the officer's actions "unheard of and inexcusable." "We're grateful that the injuries were not more serious. . . . It's fortunate that no one got killed today," Johnson said. "I cannot give you a logical explanation for Officer Vanessa Carter-Moragne's poor judgment." Philadelphia Police Capt. Edward Chiodetti said that about 3 p.m., the officer went to the school to pick up her son and was interacting with the students in the boy's classroom. Chiodetti said the children first wanted to see her badge, which she displayed, and then asked to see her weapon, a 9 mm Glock semiautomatic. Johnson said the officer removed the clip from the weapon and then passed the gun among the children. Carter-Moragne "allowed the children to handle it," Johnson said. "When she attempted to place the magazine back into the Glock, her gun accidentally discharged." Even if a clip, which contains the bullets, is removed, a round can remain in the chamber unless it is taken out separately. "You never know. You can pull the clip out and there's one in the chamber," Johnson said.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 9:35:45 PM EDT
A girl who was among the 23 children in the classroom at the time of the incident, 9-year-old Aatiqah Johnson, said: "Everybody was passing it around." The weapon eventually was returned to the officer. Aatiqah said there was a bang, and then she saw blood. "She accidentally pulled the trigger," Aatiqah said as she was leaving school holding hands with her mother, Melita Johnson. Authorities said the officer most likely pulled the trigger as she attempted to insert the clip back into the grip. Johnson said the bullet hit the floor and a fragment ricocheted and grazed James Reeves' right cheek. Other students said they were told to return to their rooms after the gun went off as police descended on the campus on the 5600 block of Greene Street. Johnson said officers are trained to never take their weapons to a school or use a gun during a demonstration. Instead, Johnson said, the department advises to use pictures or videos. Imani principal Francine Fulton said that the school encouraged parents to participate in such activities and that the school was aware of the demonstration. Fulton declined to discuss the matter further. Johnson said the demonstration was not coordinated through the Police Department. Officials said arrangements had been made for counselors to speak with children at the school today. Throughout the afternoon yesterday, concerned parents arrived at the school to pick up their children. Many of the parents had heard of the incident from news reports or from friends and already knew that their own children were fine. Tim Williams, whose son Armani is in kindergarten, said he wanted to know more about what happened. "I was relieved to find out that it was an off-duty officer and not another student," Williams said. Still, he was concerned about a gun being brought into a classroom. The whole situation, he said, "was too close for comfort." Another parent who rushed to the school, Rhoshanna Morgan, picked up her first grader, Nadirah, 6. Morgan said that she learned of the discharge from relatives who work at the school and that she hoped future show-and-tell programs would be safer. "I just hope all the children would be safe," Morgan said. The incident came five days after an off-duty school district police officer who was working as a part-time school-bus driver came under investigation when students from Imani and another charter school told their parents he threatened them with a gun. Police said that officer, who at the time was driving a school bus, stopped on the route after school to calm unruly children. The officer, whose name was not released, hollered at the kids to sit down and be quiet and made reference to his gun. He was not charged, but the matter remained under investigation.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 9:40:44 PM EDT
[b][red][size=6]RIGHT!!!![/size=6][/red][/b] Thank God that it is against the law to have any firearms within certain yards of a school.........guess that doesn't apply to idiot LEO's[rolleyes] Sgtar15
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 9:48:54 PM EDT
"I was relieved to find out that it was an off-duty officer and not another student," Williams said. Uh-huh. "You never know. You can pull the clip out and there's one in the chamber," Johnson said. [:O]Golly!!!
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 9:51:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RBAD: The officer, Vanessa Carter-Moragne, 39, a five-....and then asked to see her weapon, a 9 mm Glock semiautomatic. Johnson said the officer removed the clip from the weapon and then passed the gun among the children.
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This is stupid mistake only beginning shooters would make. I though you were suppose to take the mag out of the well, and lock the slide back before handing it to another, and the other person is supposed to check the chamber to be sure there is no round in the chamber.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 10:16:30 PM EDT
How F%&*ing frightening. Bad day for Philly LEO's. What a bad reflection on a normally knowledgeable and very well trained group of pro's. GREAT day for the luck of the children. Thank God.............brains don't kill people...shitforbrains kill people[whacko]
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 10:33:26 PM EDT
Classic!
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 10:39:06 PM EDT
[size=4]Calling all sokka momz: Time for another protest march. Oh - wait. It was a police[i]woman[/i] with a gun. Never mind.[/size=4]
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 4:47:06 AM EDT
Let me see if I got this straight.......she "passed around" to a bunch of kids, a handgun.......and then can't even insert a magazine without discharging the weapon? Truly, an idiot of the worst kind. Boy, the parents are gonna clean up in court.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 4:50:07 AM EDT
I've been reading conflicting reports here. The Philly paper says she passed around a G17. CNN reported she passed around the loaded magazine. Which one's right? (Not that it makes this particular individual any less stupid)
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 4:54:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LotBoy: Classic!
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Totally! This incident perpetuates so many stereotypes. I do notice all the professional law enforcement are strangely silent about the actions of this 5 year "veteran". THE PROVISIONS OF THE EQUAL EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITY ACT WERE MET IN THE SELECTION OF THIS EMPLOYEE Learn It[IMG]http://www.duhspot.com/users/smiley/s/cwm/3dlil/mad.gif[/IMG] Live It[IMG]http://www.3dpcgame.com/cwm/s/contrib/dvv/po.gif[/IMG] Love It[IMG]http://www.minorannoyance.net/~spin/Smilies/otn/angry/ticking.gif[/IMG]
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 4:55:47 AM EDT
Did they called 911?
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 4:59:19 AM EDT
Oh come on guys, you know it wasn't the veteran officer's fault...it was the fault of the GLOCK!
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 5:01:44 AM EDT
I'll tell you what guys & gals. My 8 year old daughter would've told that dumb-ass cop to rack the slide after she dropped the magazine to make [b]sure[/b] it was empty, and then she would have done a visual check to make sure the chamber was empty before she handled the pistol. It's the second thing I taught her about handling firearms. The first thing was the mother of all safety rules - keep the fvcking muzzle pointed in a safe direction. The fact that this dumb-assed cop didn't think to clear that weapon before handing it to a classroom full of kids to play with sickens me. She's so damned lucky one of those kids didn't shoot somebody while they were passing that weapon around. I still remember the look on my daughter's face the first time I took a loaded pistol and dropped the mag & asked her if it was empty or loaded. She grinned & said "EMPTY!" Then I racked the slide & a round popped out. She couldn't believe her eyes.... So many kids get hurt or killed every year 'cause of that. I also practiced showing her what it looked like to see a round in the chamber with the slide locked back, in case of an extractor/ejector failure. I'd turn around with my back to her, drop a dummy round in the chamber and then ask her if the weapon was clear. She learned really quick. I'm still reinforcing her safety awareness - but had she been in the classroom that kid wouldn't have been grazed by that bullet. I'm positive of that. Maybe I could have her start a consulting business for firearms safety....
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 5:03:12 AM EDT
I find it interesting that a classroom of kids couldn't manage to bump off a round, but the "veteran officer" did. Classic.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 5:11:51 AM EDT
It is less troubling that she passed it around but rather that the idiot DID NOT CLEAR HER WEAPON. A tragedy was narrowly averted. ALL children need to be taught basic gun safety rules and apparently some cops do as well. IMHO she should be canned for this stupid act. All too many police have no interest in becoming profient with their tools which is sad, very sad.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 5:13:12 AM EDT
My wife told me of an instance in one of her college Criminal Science courses. The instructor, a former police officer, brought his Glock 17 in to class. He removed the loaded magazine, charged the slide - then he proceded to give the pistol to one side of the class, and the loaded mag to the other side of the room. Each student passed it around till everyone got a look at both the pistol and mag. Hmmm, now I'm no math genius - still suprised that the wife lets me touch the checkbook....but wouldnt the mag and pistol eventually end up with one person???? YEP, you betcha!!! DOH!!!! Nothing happened, just suprised someone didnt say "Now this goes in here right?"
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 5:16:14 AM EDT
Last time I checked, a GLOCK17 neither has a "clip", or goes off when dropped. Three safeties prevent that from happening.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 5:30:07 AM EDT
Why would they name a school [i]Imani[/i]? And who would name their kids [i]Aatiqah[/i] or [i]Armani[/i]?
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 5:34:47 AM EDT
[b][red][size=4]AAARRRRGGGGHHH!!! That pisses me off![/b][/red][/size=4] We work our tails off to keep the Antis at bay and along comes this idiot and almost kills a little kid! DAMMIT WHAT A STUPID BITCH! Somebody take that gun away from her NOW! Why do stupid people EVER get their hands on a firearm? Why wasn't she properly trained in the safe operation of a Glock...or any pistol for that matter? Didn't her training officers ever tell her about jacking the slide to verify that there isn't a round in the pipe? (I'll just bet they did.) Why didn't an LEO practice standard, common sense firearm safety? WHY??? Why did she remove the pistol from her holster? [b]Why is she on the force?[/b] Why have some PDs decided on the 9mm Glock...then NOT properly trained their officers in the correct and safe operation of this pistol? They need to understand the unique properties of "Safe Action"! Fire the stupid woman. The people of Philly should be outraged. Bet you a beer though that she survives this AD. Read the story very carefully and you'll see why. [pissed]
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 5:45:29 AM EDT
[b][size=4]This is why only cops should be allowed to have guns[/b][/size=4] Oh wait, that was the problem. [b][size=4]This is why all guns need a magazine interlock[/b][/size=4] Oh wait, the gun was fired with the magazine back in the weapon, and debbie dumbass pulling the trigger. That rules out the 2 main solutions. [b][size=4]That is why no one should have a gun[/b][/size=4]
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 6:10:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LWilde: [b][red][size=4]AAARRRRGGGGHHH!!! That pisses me off![/b][/red][/size=4] We work our tails off to keep the Antis at bay and along comes this idiot and almost kills a little kid! DAMMIT WHAT A STUPID BITCH! Somebody take that gun away from her NOW! Why do stupid people EVER get their hands on a firearm? Why wasn't she properly trained in the safe operation of a Glock...or any pistol for that matter? Didn't her training officers ever tell her about jacking the slide to verify that there isn't a round in the pipe? (I'll just bet they did.) Why didn't an LEO practice standard, common sense firearm safety? WHY??? Why did she remove the pistol from her holster? [b]Why is she on the force?[/b] Why have some PDs decided on the 9mm Glock...then NOT properly trained their officers in the correct and safe operation of this pistol? They need to understand the unique properties of "Safe Action"! Fire the stupid woman. The people of Philly should be outraged. Bet you a beer though that she survives this AD. Read the story very carefully and you'll see why. [pissed]
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Not an AD, this was clearly a Negligent Discharge.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 6:54:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Beachboy: Not an AD, this was clearly a Negligent Discharge.
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AD...ND...whatever. Semantic hair-splitting. If you prefer ND...I won't complain. It puts more of the onus upon her as an idiot with a gun. Point is, she NEVER should have done what she did. She should pay the consequences by being compelled to change careers.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 7:01:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 7:04:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By LWilde: Why do stupid people EVER get their hands on a firearm?
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Um - I think it's called the 2nd amendement [;)]
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I believe he was asking a philosophical type question. Like the old saying "A fool and his money are soon parted". Well how did the fool get the money to start with.........
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 7:12:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LWilde:
Originally Posted By Beachboy: Not an AD, this was clearly a Negligent Discharge.
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AD...ND...whatever. Semantic hair-splitting. If you prefer ND...I won't complain. It puts more of the onus upon her as an idiot with a gun. Point is, she NEVER should have done what she did. She should pay the consequences by being compelled to change careers.
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I agree 110% that she should be held accountable and pay the consequences for her stupidity and indifference to the safety of the children. She obviously shouldn't be trusted with a gun, much less a Glock (she obviously negated the SafeAction design features). Let's see she is a 5 year veteran, that means that she SHOULD be past the rookie stage and about 2 years from the burn-out stage. A look at her firearms training and any remedial training records would be interesting. Also any transitional training if the Glock was not the issue firearm when she went through the academy. This only hurts us all, when a so-called professional does something like this, the antis are sure to jump on it with both feet.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 7:25:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By platform389: I do notice all the professional law enforcement are strangely silent about the actions of this 5 year "veteran".
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Even the most staunch "support your brothers of the shield" believers know that her actions are completely undefendable. Only an idiot would say anything supportive of her actions - other than the fact she was lucky as hell she didn't kill the kid. BTW - how many of you would've done a left face before reholstering so even if the gun went off when pointed at the ground a richochet wouldn't have bounced into them? Pointing your gun at the ground doesn't do any good if pointed towards somebody's feet.... Watch the fucking muzzle, dammit!!!! Dangerous shit's been known to come out of it.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 7:29:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By LWilde: Why do stupid people EVER get their hands on a firearm?
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Um - I think it's called the 2nd amendement [;)]
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My question was merely rhetorical and designed to get the readers to think a bit about her bio and background. It also mirrors my frustration WRT why stupid people are allowed to become LEOs. That she is says volumes about the selection process. Further, why did she not receive adequate initial firearms training and recurring remedial training? IF she DID...all the MORE reason she should depart quickly. FYI, Nobody on this planet believes in the 2nd Amendment more than I do. I have legally carried for years...and I intend to continue that practice. That I can, is due to the genius of our Founding Fathers who realized that for our Great Experiment in Democracy to work, its citizens must remain free from tyranny. Since they were all good students of history and since a good study of history showed them (Although this seems to be TOTALLY f**king lost on our liberal friends!) that an unarmed citizen was a vassal and an armed citizen was clearly a free man, our Founding Fathers decided to ensure we remained free. Ain't no accident. [8D]
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 7:42:41 AM EDT
"Philadelphia Police Capt. Edward Chiodetti said that about 3 p.m., the officer went to the school to pick up her son " OK "Imani principal Francine Fulton said that the school encouraged parents to participate in such activities and that the school was aware of the demonstration. Fulton declined to discuss the matter further." Sounds like CYA --and the school encourages parents to participate in passing out loaded guns during show and tell ?? "Johnson said the demonstration was not coordinated through the Police Department. " These people cant even get the story right was it "Show and Tell" or mom showing off to her sons class ? Betcha they blame the gun as defective.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 10:24:22 AM EDT
This same scenario happened to a police officer being instructed in a classroom setting. Just didn't pay attention and "clear" the weapon after dropping the mag and did not recall he had racked a round in chamber earlier.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 10:44:40 AM EDT
As I said on the other thread on this topic, this idiot will not even lose her job! She'll get a paid suspension. That's what always happens in Philly.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 10:45:17 AM EDT
This is from Friday's Friday's Philadelphia Inquirer: Costello (the head of the FOP in philly) said that the officer made a mistake that may require more firearms training, but that it did not rise to the level that would warrant termination. Direct quote from Costello :"If we're going to fire everyone for making a mistake, then we would only have 3 or 4 people employed in the city of Philadelphia"
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 11:14:15 AM EDT
This is Affirmative action at it's finest. She most likely failed many firearm training exams, and they still hired her. She'd be fired if a kid was killed. She's only suspended. woopie. I guess they're waiting for somebody to get killed.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 11:53:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2002 11:58:44 AM EDT by OLY-M4gery]
Originally Posted By a3kid:
Originally Posted By platform389: I do notice all the professional law enforcement are strangely silent about the actions of this 5 year "veteran".
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Even the most staunch "support your brothers of the shield" believers know that her actions are completely undefendable. Only an idiot would say anything supportive of her actions - other than the fact she was lucky as hell she didn't kill the kid. BTW - how many of you would've done a left face before reholstering so even if the gun went off when pointed at the ground a richochet wouldn't have bounced into them? Pointing your gun at the ground doesn't do any good if pointed towards somebody's feet.... Watch the fucking muzzle, dammit!!!! Dangerous shit's been known to come out of it.
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Ok I guess I may fit the description of a "staunch supporter". I will still say that in many instances new media reporting, often gets facts wrong, ignores facts thaey don't like, and overempasize facts THE MEDIA thinks are important. Not to mention news is usually a summary of a complicated event. This isn't that difficult. Also as far a the muzzle I believe the firearm was being pointed at the ground when it ND'ed, and the kid was struck by a bullet, bullet fragment after it riccocheted off some othe object, probably the floor. I'm not sure which direction you are facing makes a difference if the bullet fragments, it would be like a tiny grenade with a "dispersion cone". Even so that is just the last action in the chain of events that allowed this incident to happen. 1) Why would any officer draw a weapon unless .....a) they were anticipating a use of force situation. .....b) they were going to put down an injured animal. .....c) They were involved in training. Other than that the only time on duty it should be removed from the holster is to secure it prior to entering a "clean" area, or for secure storage at the end of shift. 2) Why would anyone think that a firearm is "safe" because they dropped the mag.? Even with a magazine disconnect (S+W) a bullet in the pipe means it is a loaded functional weapon. 3) Who thinks it is a good idea to pull out a gun to show a group of elemementary school kids what a handgun is? 4) Who thinks it makes any sense to consider clearing or loading a firearm in a public school classroom? 5) Who would want to hand a firearm around a classroom to small children?? Is it just me or is that insane? Even if it had been an unloaded weapon, if one of the kids dropped it and injured themself, pointed it at another kid, or hit another kid with it what kind of explanation would make sense for that injury/threat to the other parents, school district, police dept., or media?
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 12:26:33 PM EDT
AAAHHHHH....first and foremost......What kinda cop lets a bunch of kids finger f**k any of their gear? My kids dont get to touch my badge, let alone a bunch of runny nosed, sticky fingered kids at the public school. Second, did anybody really believe this idiot would be fired? I mean really, I can kinda see the reason behind affirmative action, but I also see a lot of real dumbasses getting hired cause they need a female, minority, etc. I cant speak for other departments, but our firearms training and qualification is a complete joke. You get a little more if you volunteer for a special team, but for the most part, if you want to shoot better, you do it on your own. I cant tell you how many people I have had to explain how to use a speedloader too. Actually saw one guy trying to pull the bullets out. It does not suprise me that this dumb-ass has no clue about firearms or firearms safety. They should can her. Unfortunately, AFCSME has the departments over the barrel so far they cant fire someone for anything short of killing someone.
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