and the world would have forever been different. What would have happened if... 1. The Persians defeated the Greeks in 480 B.C. and prevented the establishment of Greek culture and it's unique concepts of government? The Eastern powers did not even have words that were equivalent to the greek words "freredom" and "citizen." 2. Christ was spared the crucifixtion? What if Pontius Pilate followed his personal intuition and not the will of the crowd? What if Jesus was released and lived to old age? 3. Gengis Kahn had not died in 1242 and the Mongol hordes continued their advance into Europe? They were within eyesight of Vienna when they got the news and returned for his funeral. 4. China discovered the New World? China under the Ming Dynasty had the most advanced Navy in the world. They had the means to make the successful voyage by the mid 1400s but expeditions were scaled back due to worries of internal security. 5. Hitler had not violated his non aggression pact with Russia in 1940? England would have eventually lost their war of attrition. The Allied forces would have been forced to seek terms with the Nazis. Hitler and Stalin would control much of the world with Hitler as the dominant force. 6. Lord Halifax negotiated with Rudolf Hess and England made peace with Germany in 1940? Hitler would have been free and able to concentrate on the Russian invasion with all his resources. 7. Japan did not attack Pearl Harbor? Without provocation, would the US had entered the war? What if Japan sought raw material from her Axis partners? 8. D-Day failed? What if allied forces stalled on the beaches in 1944 and failed to breach the Atlantic Wall? 9. If Chiang Kai Shek defeated the communist forces under Mao? Without the brutal cultural revolution, would China today be a major industrial/economic superpower? 10. The Cuban Missle Crisis went hot? What if there was a limited nuclear excahange? Anyway, that is MY top ten of things that could have gone the other way.

SOMEONE has been reading those "What If?" books... [;)]

Jefferson Davis abolished slavery? England and France enter the civil war on the side of the Confederacy.

As for #7, Japan did recieve quite a bit of help from their Axis partners, including several hundred pounds of uranium ore. Not enough to make a fission bomb but more than enough to make a dirty nuke. Lukily, that Nazi sub never made it to Japan. They ended up surrendereing to the US navy. Germany also gave Japan blueprints for the ME-262 and the best jet engines at the time from Italy. The Japanese version of the ME-262 was never really used, I think a few ended up as Kamakazi bombs. They incorporated all the research the Germans had accumalted up until the end of their war and added in a few Japanese inovatations and top notch Italian jet engines making it faster and more manuverable that the original ME-262. Had the war gone on another 6-12 months, they could've possilbly had air supperiority over Japan. And they also could have used their new 6 engine transcontinental bomber to spread their biologicals and dirty nukes all over the west coast. Truman was right in ending it ASAP.

You forgot.... 1. What if the dinosaurs hadn't died off? 2. What if the south had won the civil war? And the most important of them all. [b]3. What if C-A-T really spells dog?[/b]

AHHHH! My brain! Juggernaut

Sounds like someones got too much time on their hands

...Kennedy had not been killed? no Vietnam war? no Nixon? no GCA 1968? ... RFK not assasinated? What if I am a brain in a jar and this is all just a dream?????

And let me be first to say welcome back to GD, Mr. SA. Place hasn't been the same without you! [IMG]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s2/contrib/aahmed/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

What if I had been born rich instead of good looking? Or God forbid BOTH!!!

Not posible. Jesus Christ dying on the cross was a fullfillment of scripture....there was no other option, Pontius Pilate's personnal feelings really were illrelavant But of course you would have to be a Christian to fully understand that. Sgtar15

What if SteyrAUG had never posted this topic? [}:D]

Christ's death proves and changes nothing. It was his resurrection on the third day proving his diety that transformed mankind forever.

What if you had been born a woman? Would you fondel your own boobs? [:X]

I think you mean "to believe that."

What if SteyrAUG had never been banned? How would ar15.com be different? What if there had never been a babe of the day thread? Would most of you guys have hung-out here long enough to become addicted? What if garand_man had liked AK's? AK_man just doesn't sound the same.z

[b][size=3]2+2=5[/b][/size=3]

Pilate's feelings were irrelevant? Careful, now; you wouldn't want to deny free will, would you? [0:)] If Jesus [b]had[/b] to die to satisfy the prophecies he could have found another way. Maybe he could have had an "accident".

5. The russians would have eventually invaded Germany. IIRC, they planned on doing it, just werent ready when hitler invaded 6. The russians would have won anyway. Germany lacked the manpower, and was strung out when it reached moscow. the russians were winning with minimal US?GB assistance 8. Russia would have still defeated Germany, and dominated all of europe in the cold war. 9. China would be our closest ally maybe? we were more willing to help china during wwii than GB 10. the S would HTF

I understand what he is saying and maybe Pilate's feelings being irrelevant isn't really the best way to put it. How about, Pilate's decision was known before he made it. He still made it of his own free will, but the outcome and Jesus's fate was sealed before the decision to crucify Him was ever made.

The answer to all those questions would be... Then the Satan is more powerful than the Lord.

NOT POSSIBLE??? Ummm I seem to remember something about Free will or some other silly concept!!

So you actually think you could play a game of "which hand is it in?" with God and win? [:)] ---Are you tellin me that Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?

Just curious how China being spared the Communist Revolution and becoming a modern economic on par with Western Europe would have been a act of Satan? And not sure The Chinese being first to find the New World would have evil overtones. It is probable the Vikings found it long before the resto fo us got here and things turned out ok. And while we are at it... Christ being spared the crucifiction, but still resurecting after his death for all you Christians, doesn't seem that horrible so long as he still provided a means for human redemption. The German/English negotiated truce, despite it's baggage, would have saved millions of lives that were lost fightin the war. Also it might not have necessitated a "Final Solution" if the Germans were given the luxury of time. Perhaps ideas such as the Madagascar resettlement might have happened. If Japan obtained raw materials like steel and oil from other sources our Pacific War may never have happened. This doesn't seem so bad, at least for us. Japan, and not Mao would have eventually ruled China without our direct intervention. Whose to say if a Japanese ruled China would have been less desirable than the Communist one currently in place. The others ones, would have been decidedly bad had they gone the other way. But it is interesting that all of history can hinge on single pivitol events, and often individuals, that change the direction for centuries and possibly forever. And yes, the big one I missed. What IF the dinosaurs didn't die out? Probably one of two conclusions, either we wouldn't be here OR like every other species they would be dominated and regulated according to our whim. And some dumbass would be wearing a "Save the T-Rex" t-shirt.

god? Who said anything about god? If you read the above we are talking about a historical figure from 2000 years ago who was executed by the Romans in Palestine......

Wow! This is some interesting stuff to ponder. I think my brain's gonna explode!

"top notch Italian jet engines "? Oy- what a gift to give an ally- with allies like that, who'd need enemies? The only Eyetie WW2 "jet" engines I am aware of were the ducted fans (with a conventional radial engine as impeller drive) that were used in the wheezy Caproni-Campini experimental plane of circa 1941. If the Jap Nakajima 'Kikkas' (straight wing Me262 copies) did indeed ever fly, (last I knew they hadn't gone beyond static testing during the war, but it's been a while since I read up on aviation), then it's no wonder they ended up as kamikazes- it was probably unintentional, too, as the planes just suddenly fell out of the sky, like bombs....[:D]

How about these....(not all in the same 'time line', but as individual events.) 1. FDR didn't die during WWII. 2. Patton didn't die in accident. 3. 'Nam was a total victory...ie generals were allowed to run it. 4. USSR is the first to the moon. 5. McArthur gets to run Korea his way. 6. Lincon is not killed. 7. Attempt on Hitler suceeded, he is killed. 8. Ronald Reagan is killed. 9. Gorby is killed and a hardliner gets in power. 10. Clinton is killed right before the 2000 election. 12. Gore elected in 2000 election. 13. The remaining Kennedy ran for president & won. 14. The 'Twin Towers' hi-jackers are stopped before they get on plane. 15. Desert Storm, we take Iraq.... not stopping short. 16. Osama used nuclear weopon on New York instead of 'planes'. 17. Russion revolution (recent one) got rid of Yeltsin (spelling). Oh, about the Civil War, England going against the US of A.... look at the 'Stars and Stripes: In Peril' book series. Great 'what if sci-fi'. Looking forward for next book. I love this like of topics............ "Now, don't you see why we can't go back and mess with history......."

GOOD ONES... Probably wouldn't have made too much difference. Still would have nuked Japan according to plan. But probably even MORE socialism. Would have had a second general of the MacAurthur class and probably would have reigned over Germany as Mac did over Japan. Would depend if Russia found it significant enough to intervene. If not, more activist bitching about atrocities. Very possible. Probably would have destroyed funding for the US space program. Much like the Venus probes, the USSR would have maintained a virtual exclusive. Everything would depend upon the Chinese responce, and by extention that of the Soviets. The Cold War could have gone hot and developed into World War III, which may or may not have gone nuclear. Among other things, the repatriation of many former slaves back to Africa. Unconditional surrender offered by the Generals. Much of Germany including Berlin would have been spared destruction. And despite the Potsdam Accord, the Iron Curtain may well have fallen further east. Possible continuation of the Cold War. It is doubtful Bush would have the same relationship with Gorbechev. Jodie Foster may well have been impressed. Old Regime status quo. Given the sabre rattelling of the mid 80s, some idiot of the Breshnev mold may have pushed the button. And there was much rejoicing - Monty Python. Cries of stolen election followed by continuation of the socialism plan. Chivas for everyone. Monica Lweinsky would drown in a lake. Would contitute a "blurb" on the news that most Americans would doubt. Violation of coalition agreements may bring Arab-US relations to a head. By the terms of our policy on NBC the US would be free to respond with a nuclear attack. Russia would be in shambles, oh wait. Europe "almost" intervned on the side of the Confederacy until Lincolns Emancipation Proclomation equated the Civil War with a "War on Slavery." After that, neither France or England would go near it.

Until Gore got to run as incumbent.

Welcome back, Steyr!

Stalin would most certainly have attacked Hitler while he was trying to take Great Britain. Great Britain declaring peace with Germany? This would have been very interesting. If Churchhill had died, this could have happened. With England out of it, I imagine the US would only fight Japan. I could also see anti-Communist forces in America demanding neutrality in the Russo-German war. I don't think Normandy was as important as others do, we still could have invaded through the South of France, Italy and the Balkans. The Soviets would have had more of Europe, but their casualties would have been twice as bad. Very interesting topics. I would totally love a system that let me see those scenarios played out. Patton & FDR are not as important as people think. The early deaths of Hitler, Stalin & Churchill would have made much bigger impacts on history.

This is one of the most significant events in recorded history (and for some reason it is hardly ever mentioned): The Battle of Tours (at Poitters) which took place in 732 AD. Charles Martel (grandfather of Charlemagne) halted the muslim invasion which had come up the Iberian penninsula (Spain) via North Africa and was about to attack France. If France had fallen to islam all of europe would have been within striking distance. It's not possible to even fathom how that one battle changed history. We'd all be praying to allah.... This is getting a little off topic, but everyone seems to think christianity started the animosity with islam (the crusades). But in fact the muslims had attacked christian europe several centuries before the crusades began. Another interesting thing is how these wonderfully peaceful muslims (who, we are all being told by the media and our children are being taught in the schools, were such a civilized lot with such a superior society until the evil christians attacked them for no reason during the time of the crusades) had already taken over all of northern africa and most of spain. When the Battle of Tours took place, islam was only about 100 years old. Students are supposed to believe that islam had made it to the borders of FRANCE in 100 years in a peaceful way!? Just read what they did to the north africans on the way through... A great bunch of guys.... I always have to mention the Battle of Tours because noone seems to know about it.

It wouldn't have mattered as Democracy would eventually have happened no matter what. The idea may have been revolutionary at the time, but it wasn't something that was never going to happen otherwise. Jesus would not have lived...It was his duty to die for our sins. Well, since the Plague began in China...the mongols would surely have spread it more than it did in the 14th Century. As it was, between 25 and 33% of Europe was decimated. It could have been 50 or 75% had there been more travel with the east. Outside that, modern society would have been delayed by a few hundred years. Mangna Charta may never have occured. Russia would not have existed as it did until 1917. Russia was the 3rd Roman Empire. Actually, they did. Funniest thing was that the Chineese landed in San Fransisco and the Bay Area back around the turn of the first millinium. This was about the same time, the Vikings discovered New England. Now, assuming both had moved inland rather than simply disregarding what they'd discovered...we could possibly have seen Vikings vs. Chineese somewhere in the United States. Or, they may have lived together with the Vikings occupying the frigid North and the Chineese the Warm South. There was an interesting so called Chineese myth that may be true...It says that a Chineese Sailor came back after a real long trip and spoke of a new land with Red Men, etc...The myth even included a perfect description of the Grand Canyon showing that the Chineese made it into Arizona. It is possible they could have made it to New Mexico or Texas or even Northern Mexico. The Sailor asked the King to give him several ships and something like 200 or 2000 Women. He was given all of the above, sailed off, and never returned. Nobody knows what happened to the Ships full of young women...or did they make it and stay in California possibly mixing with local tribes.

Russia would have eventually violated it if Germany hadn't. Hitler would eventually have violated it. He most likely would never have won in Russia even without a war in the west. Russians have a nasty habit of torching Moscow when foreigners reach it (especially with an approaching winter) Most likely, we would eventually have been forced in...But, instead it would have been after Germany had seized Mexico or Canada and was knocking at our door. The result may well have been an extended war on US Soil with Germany. This was planned for and there was a speech ready in case...But, most don't realize that D-Day was the 2nd try. The 1st was earlier in the war when English and Canadian Forces landed, but were almost decimated trying to establish a Beachhead. If I remember correctly, few if any of the Canadians made it out and few of the Brits made it out unscathed. They would have tried a 3rd, a 4th, etc...Eventually, they would have made it work. Korea, Vietnam Wars would never have happened. The Cold War would have been more focused between the US and Russia and Cuba. It may have gone hot and we may have actually taken out Castro. I wouldn't be here. My Mother's family is from South Florida. They were in Fort Lauderdale during the Missle Crisis. Most likely, Florida would have been nuked off the face of the Earth...and so would Cuba. Cuba would be glowing for the next 10,000 years and so would Florida. Moscow and D.C would have been secondary to Florida and Cuba. Even if the missles had been blown up in Cuba, the fallout would have covered Florida. Only 90 miles from Havana to Key West. Key West is about 200 miles from Miami. Chernobyl spread all the way to Sweden.

Dewey would have become President in 1948 assuming FDR had left after the war. If not, he may well have ben President unitl he died (1960's or later) Almost 0 Effect outside friends and family. Hmm, the hippies wouldn't have gotten a foothold and the idiots would probably be in Prison instead of Public Office. The Space Race was no big deal in terms of effect. Had Russia been first, it probably wouldn't have mattered. But, it is possible that Russia may have tried to establish a colony on the Moon. China and Korea would be Democratic Countries and we would have ended the Cold War early on. Castro may never have taken Cuba. Vietnam may never have occured. The slaves would have been sent back to Liberia and there would be almost No Blacks in America. Therefore no Civil Rights Movement, No Liberal Shit for Government. Actually, I like that idea. There would have been a power grab that would have destroyed German and the Nazis. Bush would have become President and the Antonin Scalia wouldn't be on the SCOTUS. Instead we'd have crap like David Souter (A Bush Nominee) So, USSR lasts a few more years. Actually, in 1998 Channel 7 announced that the Chief Executive had died. I hoped against hope for a few minutes that it was Clinton before they anounced it was Lawton Chiles (Liber POS Governor of Florida). Well, at least God got one of them. Seriously, Al Gore would have become President and it would have shown the world how incompetent he is.

Freedom would be a thing of the past, We would have made concessions with the Taliban, and would look like a bunch of pussies to the world. Great, one more Kennedy to fuck up America and destroy our rights. Nobody would have realized how bad it would have been. Bush would have retailiated and the Liberals would scream foul. Iran would have fucked with us and we would have taken them. Basically, we would control the flow of oil and Gas would be 40 cents a Gallon. Actually, Gas is only 40 cents a Gallon...the rest is all taxes. We wouldn't be worrying about if we got Bin Laden or not, becuase Afghanistan would be glowing right now from the US Nukes. No real effect. Possibly may have temporarily brought back USSR. But, it would have collapsed again.

3. 'Nam was a total victory...ie generals were allowed to run it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Would depend if Russia found it significant enough to intervene. If not, more activist bitching about atrocities. He said total victory, so if Russia did join in, it would be total victory over Russia?

Now, had the South Won: We would have Federal Gun Laws similar to those of Louisiana and Mississippi. Basically, we would be free to own whatever we wish and carry it whereever we please (Certian Places like Courts excepted) Religion would still be part of society and crime would be dealt with by a public lynching. Criminals would be chased down and hanged or shot. New Yorkers would be stopped at the Mason-Dixon and turned back before they got to Florida and created excessive traffic. We would have enough intelligence to punch a damn a ballot. I voted in Broward and I know who I voted for (GW Bush). Alcohol would be stronger and there would be no sin tax on beer. The CS Capitol would be in Texas or Mississippi. It was originally in Alabama and Virginia. As America spread west, so would the Capitol. Teaching a kid to shoot would be mandatory instead of being considered a right wing wacko. etc....

Sure, If I was mad is God's image, then I got a 50/50 chance with "Which hand is it in?" with God, right?? [kill]

If you caught the History Channel this evening, you would've seen the program the "Samuri and the Swastika". This program details some of the "what ifs" discussed in this thread. The proto-type Kikka did sucessfully fly. And it wasn't into the ground. Their rocket planes were a bust and never flew without a death involved. As I said before, the atom bomb put a quick end to any further Kikka flights. There were 20 total proto types in various stages of developement before the surrender. 2 were flight ready and proven. The Kikka was about half the weight = 7716lbs, of the ME-262 = 15,720lbs. Their planned fighter version had the same overall engine thrust as the ME of 3968lbs. The Japanese did develope their own version of the BMW 003 axial-flow turbojet, the Ne-20 followed by the later Ne-130 and Ne-330. Built using Germany's BMW 003 schematics, photos and their previous work with the Italian Campini-type engines. You can do the math in terms of speed, max cieling and manuverability. The proto-type with just temporary Ne-20 engines alreay had a 2000ft advantage over the ME in max elevation at 39+k feet. Still slower than the ME, the proto-type was faster and could fly higher than any Ally carrier based fighter. Hit and run anti-ship missions could've been disaterous for the allies. The Japanese Navy ordered 200 alone. The Kikka also had the ability to knock down high altitude bombers that basically had a free ride thanks to air superiority. There was also suicide jet planed using the same Ne-130 jet engines. Basically a poormans V1 Buzzbomb with a live pilot instead of a gyro. Inside that same Nazi sub carrying the uranium oxide to Japan, there also was a complete disassembled ME-262 with engines. A going away present from Hitler. A last chance at vengence. Only the Atom bomb and Japan's complete surrender kept that sub from sailing all the way to Japan with it's deadly cargo. Check it out, it's a good documentary. Just imagine what a Nazi-Soviet-Japanese alliance could've wrought.