Is this normal in the Catholic Church? Praying to John Paul that is.
I would take that to mean they prayed to God, but asked John Paul II to act as an intercessor.
Apparently God heard her prayer.
I am not Catholic, so I am not an authority on this.
Personal observation of mine: Many Catholics ask saints (sanctioned by the Catholic Church or not) to act as intercessors on the praying person's behalf.
Some one's working really hard to get John Paul canonized. One of the requirements for sainthood is the occurance of several (two or three) miracles. I think that this story might be an attempt at attributing a miracle to John Paul so he can become Saint John Paul.
And yes.... We ask for prayer on our behalf... y'know.. that sort of thing.....
It is interesting how the Catholic definition of a saint differs from the way the word was used in the new testament . . .
Thanks for your response. It's very informative. I hope my earlier comment didn't come accross as an attack or insult.
No, it doesn't "differ from the NT usage" of the world. St. Paul called Christians "saints" because they presumably were holy people. There's loads of testimonies of these early Christians performing miracles and having other gifts of the Spirit too... The Catholic 'definition' is the same; anyone who is extraordinarily holy, that is, full of the lord, should be expected to have signs of this virtue. One ought to assume people who have a special closeness to Our Lord will have 'pull' with the Man.
Nowhere in the NT does it spell out some sort of "wall of death" separating those who are "asleep in the lord" from any influence or aid to those still on earth. Revelations shows the prayers of the martyrs and saints going up to God as incense....
My Bible say's that there is one mediator between God and man and He is the person Jesus Christ.
Therefore I pray directly to my Father in heaven in Jesus' name.
Thanks be to God.....
Well, OK, then. But it sure seems like there were a whole lot more saints back then. And it didn't seem so hard to get in the club. Take a look at a concordance, the new testament authors toss the term around pretty lightly. They also don't spell out any particular qualification for "sainthood." They seem to apply the term to just about any of the faithful.
What version of the bible are you taking this from? There are differences between the bible the Catholic church uses and what protestant churches use. I was raised Baptist and my wife is Catholic, believe me, there are a lot of common misconceptions about the Catholic church that are very twisted by most protestant churches and views.
Why would one ask their pastor, their congregation, or ARFcom for that matter to pray for them? If there truly is only one mediator between God and man then all the prayers of all the world aren't going to make one bit of difference.
Catholics asking the Saints to pray on our behalf is no different than you getting together with your bible study group (assuming you have one) and asking them to pray on your behalf. It's no different.
Consider the Hail Mary prayer:
The blue part is praise for Mary and recognition of her position as the chosen mother of Jesus, the Son of God. The red part is a prayer for her intercession--"...pray for us sinners...".
Yes it is.
Having my bible study group pray for me is completely different that praying to someone that is not hearing my prayer in the first place. My bible study group pray's to God through Jesus on my behalf just like you're supposed to, NOT to saints who can't hear you.
The bible also says that once in heaven as saints clearly are, all your tears will be wiped away, implying that there will be no more crying once in heaven. How in the world could you possible hear all the prayers coming up from this obnoxiously screwed up planet and not shed a tear.
There are also other verses and doctrinal principals that prove the uselesness of praying to anyone other than God through Jesus, I'm to lazy to find them and link them here.
Not sure if you're talking to me me but I was referring to the King James Bible. I don't know how any of the other versions translated saint.
There are dozens and dozens of references to saints in the new testament, not to mention a few more in the old testament. Some probably refer to elder disciples or even the apostles but others just seem to imply faithful. FWIW, James Strong defines saint as sacred, physically pure, morally blameless or religious.
There's one passage in 1 Corinthians that seems to suggest that being a saint is no great shake:
1Co 6:1 ¶ Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
Anyone who has read 1 Corintians knows Paul had a number of issues with these folks. They certainly had not cleaned up their act completely. And yet, in verse two he says first that the world will be judged by saints and then goes on to say that they well judge the world. Seems like he was calling them saints. He allso faults them (in verse 1) for not turning carnal concerns over to the saints but in verse 4 and 5 he says that that the least in the church can judge these matters. Seems like he's holding the bar pretty low for calling someone a saint.
Also, in Ephesians 4 when Paul tells what the gifts of the ministry (preaching, teaching, apostle, evangelist, pastor) are used for he says they are for the perfecting of the saints. So, Paul seems to be saying that saints are not the uber holy. They probably haven't performed three miracles and passed some sainthood counsel to earn the title:
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Again, the term saint or saints is used boatloads of times in the NT. Some of these scriptures do seem to refer to the apostles and elder disciples of Christ but there's a bunch that seem to suggest the term is simply being used to describe members of the church and not necessarily the big name faithful like "Saint" Peter or "Saint" John. Here's just a sampling"
Ac 9:32 And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.
Ac 9:41 And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.
Ro 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
Ro 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Php 4:22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.
Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
The blessed part is scripture . . .
People in the pews believe all sorts of odd things, but I think any RC priest would tell you that what we Protestants think of as "praying to saints" is exactly the same as me asking you to pray for me. The Communion of Saints (in which afaik all Christians believe) is the entire body of the faithful, on earth and gone to glory.
In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Jesus implies that our fellow saints in Heaven (Lazarus) can see and hear people in Hell (the rich man), as well as us who remain on Earth (the rich man assumes that Lazarus sees his brothers and can communicate with them, and Lazarus doesn't correct him). I assume that Jesus' depiction of Heaven (He'd been there, after all) is accurate. This means that people there can hear us if we talk to them. I accept the proposition that asking Paul or Stephen or Aunt Hattie or anybody else you're sure is in Heaven to pray for you is just like asking me to do it.
I myself do not seek the intercession of saints (Francis of Assissi or my granddad, either one) because I have a weak mind and could readily lapse into worshiping them or praying to them. However, I think that if you don't suffer from that weakness, seeking the intercession of saints is as proper and Biblical as praying for your neighbors. YMMV.
We are shown a perfect example of what a prayer should look like in the Bible....It was given to us from JC himself...I don’t need Mary, Mark, or whoever to get my prayer to the Father.
It is blasphemy to pray to ANYONE else besides the FATHER (God).
I hear it takes four confirmed miracles, but that John Paul II has only 3 miracles and a couple of card tricks.
Adapted from a joke by Father Guido Sarducci.
And all the while you never see the Saints of old taking credit for the "miracles" that they performed
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints lets anyone who wants to become a saint do so...
The only miracles needed are that the person comes with fruits meet for repentance, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and that they take the name of Christ upon themselves, always remember him, and keep his commandments.
As far as prayer, we encourage the idea of effective personal prayer to the Father. He is our Father, and wants to listen to each of us individually. We pray in the name of Jesus Christ, as he is the author of salvation and our advocate with the Father. We have the greatest amount of pull with the Father when it comes to our own lives and concerns. Nobody cares for my problems and spiritual needs as much as I do, except the Father.
Just as an exercise, reread the parable of Lazarus and the rich man and substitute the following:
Rich man = self-right religious leaders of the Jews
Lazarus = former Gentiles who have now accepted Christ
Again, just for an exercise, consider the interpretation in the italics in paranthesis:
Luke 16: 19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
(there was a man who had many valuable things, he is symbolic of the Jewish religious leaders which had received, through the law, more from God than any people on earth at the time -- this understanding will be confirmed in verse 29 -- God had been feeding the rich man as he grew in God)
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
(there once were people who had very little of God, let's call them Lazarus for purposes of telling a story, this man was outside the deeper depths of God but wanted to come into the kingdom, he had many evil spirits)
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
(the gentile wanted the things that God had been feeding out to the Jews. But all he had for comfort was the kind of support that unbelievers can give to each other in the depth of spirit that they're in)
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(the gentile man received Christ, "crucified his old man", was dead to sin and got into a deeper depth of spirit where he could commune with God. THe rich man was dead in his sins and tresspasses)
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(Because the Jew knew to do right he was in torment because he realized that his thoughts/behavior/faith were not in keeping with what he had received under the Law. He realizes that he had lost contact with God. God was far from him. And yet, the Gentiles had grown a relationship with God. The unbelievers had moved on into a deeper depth of spirit than the Jews were in)
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(The Jew, specifically, the self-right Jewish leaders, bemoan this outcome and say that they want what the once-gentiles had received when they moved on with Christ. They were jealous of the relationship the gentiles had grown with the father through Christ. THey ask for just a little bit of the spirit that Lazarus now has -- a drop of water -- for they are tormented in the word of God. They knew what God had commanded in his word but they were disobedient to it)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(God doesn't respond favorably to their cries. He reminds them that they, the Jews, had once had it all but had spoiled it. The Gentiles on the other hand had nothing and yet now they were moving on with God. Essentially, he is saying that the Jews put themselves into this situation by their choices.)
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(God tells the Jews that there is now a separation between them and him. That gulf is the Jews unbelief of Christ and the truth that he brought. There just is no way for God to connect with the Jews as long as that separation exists.)
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(The rich man pleads that this understanding and witness that the Gentiles had received would be made available to the Jews -- as if it hadn't been presented already)
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
(One understanding on the five brethern refers to six sects of the Moses Law, the divisions that had taken place within the Jewish church. The Rich Man says he wants to spare the rest of the sects from the same torment of separation that he's feeling)
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
(This is the key verse that gives the understanding to the parable. It was the Jews who had Moses. It was them who had the Moses Law. They were supposed to be faithful to this and in doing so, they would be led to the Messiah and God's deeper depths of spirit, often pictured by Canaan and Jeruselum. God tells the Rich Man he should have been faithful to what he had already received but he had not been.)
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
(The self-right Jewish leaders justify themselves. The Law isn't enough. Maybe if one came from the dead refers to Lazarus in the story but it really is a reference to Christ himself. Even before Jesus went to the physical cross he had resurrected from the death that was in the Moses Law.)
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
(Essentially, God is saying, "yeah, right!" If you weren't faithful to what you've received already why would you be faithful to Christ? This is a judgement against the unbelieving spirit that was in the religious leaders)
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Romans 8:34
We don't have any other Intercessor for us with God, nor do we need any other.
Do you not pray for others when asked?
How can one Christian ask another Christian such an incredible question?
Yes, indeed, I pray to Jesus and Him only, for myself and for others.
For He alone is our Intercessor with the Heavenly Father.
Our High Priest, Forever.
Looking at these examples it would seem that praying to saints is a bit more than just asking a friend to pray to God (about your specific situation).
Prayer to St. Joseph
O Blessed St. Joseph, tenderhearted father, faithful guardian of Jesus, chaste spouse of the Mother of God, I pray you to join with me in praising God the Father through his divine Son who died on the cross and rose again to give us sinners new life. Through the holy Name of Jesus, pray that we may obtain from the eternal Father the favor we ask for (state intention).
We have been unfaithful to the unfailing love of God the Father; beg of Jesus mercy for us his brothers and sisters. Amid the splendors of God's loving presence, do not forget the sorrows of whose who weep. By your prayers and those of your most holy spouse, our blessed Lady, may the love of Jesus answer our call of confident hope.
Prayer to St. Gerard
O good St. Gerard, powerful intercessor before the throne of God, wonder-worker of our day, I call upon you and seek your help. While on earth, you always fulfilled God's designs; help me, too, always do God's holy will. Beseech the master of life, from whom all parenthood proceeds, to bless me with offspring, that I may raise up children to God in this life and heirs to the kingdom of God's glory in the life to come.
For Mother With Child:
O almighty and everlasting God, through the Holy Spirit, you prepared the body and soul of the glorious virgin Mary to be a worthy dwelling place of your divine Son. Through the same Holy Spirit, you sanctified St. John the Baptist, while still in his mother's womb. Hear the prayers of your humble servant who implores you, through the intercession of St. Gerard, to protect me amid the dangers of childbearing and to watch over the child with which you blessed me. May this child be cleansed by the saving water of baptism and, after a Christian life on earth, may we, both mother and child, attain everlasting bliss in heaven.
Prayer to St. Anthony
O Saint Anthony, Saint of Miracles, Saint of Help. I also have need of your assistance; I have need of this special favor (mention your favor).
Therefore, console me in my present necessity and grant me the help that, with full confidence, I hope for.
Prayer to St. Michael
St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in our day of battle; protect us against the deceit and wickedness of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray.
And you, O prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God banish into hell Satan and all of the evil spirits who roam through the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Prayer to St. Peregrine
O God, in St. Peregrine you gave us an outstanding example of faith and patience. We humbly ask you that, by imitating him and by the help of his prayers, we may believe more fully in your healing help, bear the suffering of his life without wavering, and come with joy to the peace of heaven. We ask this through Jesus Christ, our Lord.
Prayer to St. Lucy
Relying on Your goodness, O God, we humbly ask you, by the intercession of your servant, Saint Lucy, to give perfect vision to our eyes, that we may serve for your greater honor and glory. And we pray for the salvation of our souls in this world, that we may come to the enjoyment of the unfailing light of the Lamb of God in heaven.
St. Lucy, virgin and martyr, hear our prayers and answer our petitions.
Prayer to St. Rita
(patron of impossible cases)
Holy patroness of those in need, Saint Rita, so humble, pure and patient, whose pleadings with the Divine Spouse are irresistible, obtain for us from your Crucified Jesus our request (mention it). Be gracious toward us for the greater glory of God and we promise to honor you and sing your praises forever.
Prayer to Your Guardian Angel
Angel of God, my Guardian dear,
To whom God's love commits me here,
Ever this day be at my side
To light and guard, to rule and guide.
As a Catholic of 40 years, I have seen ONE of those prayers before. I would not think that they are in common usage. Regardless, each one you cited asked for the intercession of the saint, just as described in earlier posts. Unfortunately, you are caught up on the titles that use the 'blasphemous' pronoun 'to.' Would it be better to write out the whole thing as 'Prayer to God through the intercession of St. _______?' That's what is meant, and that is what is reflected in the content of such prayer, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.
How about a simple.....'Prayer to God through the intercession of
Allow the Saints to sleep undisturbed in the bosom of Abraham, awaiting the Day.
If you ask Jesus to pray to God on your behalf you are just asking God to pray to God on your behalf. When you ask Saints to pray on your behalf it is more like a whole group of people all praying to God for the same thing.
Originally Posted By wedge1082:
Is Jesus Christ our Intercessor with the Father, or not?
The Scriptures and 2,000 years of Christian History says, 'Yes', but you think otherwise?
Just do a 'search' for 'intessessor' or 'intercession' in your Douay-Reims Bible, or whatever, and see the results.....
There's nothing wrong with a group of your fellow Christians praying for you...or with you...to the Heavenly Father....in the Name of Jesus.
Jesus and God are one in the same. And there is nothing wrong in asking a Saint to pray with you or for you.
I'm confused Eric. Are you saying that Jesus is somehow seperate from God?
I was taught that the intercession was Jesus' death on Cavalry, not whispering in God's ear in heaven.
Luk 11:1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name . . .
Originally Posted By Dino:
Of course you are, dear boy!
Welcome to Historical Christianity 101.
Jesus is God as the Son, Incarnate, dwelling within the image of human frame.
God as the Father, is a Spirit (John 4:24), and does not dwell in the image of a human frame.
As the Writer of Hebrews said...
Wherefore He [Jesus] is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Hebrews 7:25
Or even more clearly....
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, Who also maketh intercession for us. Romans 8:34.
President Harry S. Truman once remarked that 'The only new thing in the world is the history you don't know.'
The only thing new in the life of a Christian is the Scripture that he doesn't know.
Sorry if you thought I was confused over something. I'm not confused, you seem to be.
If you pray to Jesus, you are praying to one of the 3 aspects of God.
Asking one aspect to interfere with another aspect seems kind of strange. Your statement had me wondering how you view the status of Jesus. Your explanation confirmed it is the standard view. That still doesn't explain why you answered Wedge1082 the way you did.
He said the same thing you said, just in different words.
Jesus is God, correct?
As much as I hate to step into this I'm going to don my flamesuit now . . .
Jesus is NOT God. Jesus is the son of God.
Jesus was the mediator sent to reconcile God and man. Jesus existed pre-earthly as an angel and came to Earth as a MAN to do the work of judging Lucifer. While here Jesus, the man, never sinned. He judged evil at every turn. By never growing an old man and rising above what was available under the law angels were able to deposit deeper spirit to him and he became the Christ — the annointed one. That accomplished he was an acceptable sacrifice to pay off the accumulated sin of the Jewish people — the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world. His death on the cross closed the books on the Moses Law and the old covenent (the end of the world spoken of in Hebrews). Because of his death we are no longer under the law. Because of his LIFE we have grace to free us from sin. Jesus' actions made a restored relationship with God possible.
Read the scriptures. Jesus gave glory to his father. He refused the glory to himself. He came to reconcile man to GOD, not to himself.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Originally Posted By Dino:
Sorry to have to correct you, yet again.
I am not confused in the least.
Asking dead 'Saints' to intercede with God on your behald, rather than asking Jesus to intercede on your behalf is both pointless and unscriptural.
Read just those two quotes from Hebrews and Romans which I cited in my post above.
Yes, indeed, you are.
Take it up with the Heavenly Father when you see Him next.
It is the Biblical view, nothing more needs to be said.
Dead 'Saints' avail no one anything by way of intercession in prayer.
Living 'Saints' praying to Jesus to intercede for you with the Heavenly Father does.
This should be easy enough to understand for a child.
Nope. He didn't say the same thing at all.
I just said in the post preceding his:
wedge1082 quoted me and replied:
Is wedge1082 not speaking of asking dead 'Saints' to pray on your behalf?
Of course he is.
Indeed, He said He is, and He is.
You were wise, initially, not to step into this...but you did, anyway.
Rather than argue this crucial point with you, for I know that would be utterly useless, allow me to point out the error in your cited verse.
In Revelation 19:10, the person at whose feet the Apostle John was about to fall and worship was not Jesus, but the angel who began to speak to John at the beginning of Chapter 17.
Besides which, why would Jesus be speaking of Himself in the Third Person???
Sheesh, folks have a Most Excellent Gospel and they wish to make for themselves another.
Ain't going to work, Brother.
I would disagree with that particular part of your post. But then again we usually interpret things differently, brother Hun!
Wisdom 3:1 But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and no torment shall touch them. 2 They seemed, in the view of the foolish, to be dead; and their passing away was thought an affliction 3 and their going forth from us, utter destruction. But they are in peace.
Romans 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I believe the saints are alive.
Just curious, Hun, not asking for an argument. Is it the your contention or the belief of the CoC that we are all 'asleep' at the moment of death until the last day/final judgement? Or are we judged and rewarded or punished when we die?
And this is where in the scripture?
Well, you asked . . .
Jesus is NOT God . . .
Mr 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Jesus is the son of God . . .
Mr 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Jesus was the mediator sent to reconcile God and man . . .
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Jesus existed pre-earthly . . .
Mar 12 35 ¶ And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?
36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.
as an angel and came to Earth . . .
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
as a MAN . . .
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
to do the work of judging Lucifer . . .
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
While here Jesus, the man, never sinned . . .
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
He judged evil at every turn . . .
Ac 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
By never growing an old man and rising above what was available under the law . . .
Heb 9: 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
angels were able to deposit deeper spirit to him . . .
11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him . . .
and he became the Christ — the annointed one . . .
Joh 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
That accomplished he was an acceptable sacrifice to pay off the accumulated sin of the Jewish people . . .
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
— the lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world . . .
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
(BONUS SCRIPTURE) 1Co 5:7 ¶ Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
His death on the cross closed the books on the Moses Law and the old covenent . . .
Heb 9:15 ¶ And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(the end of the world spoken of in Hebrews). . . .
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Because of his death we are no longer under the law . . .
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Because of his LIFE we have grace to free us from sin . . .
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Jesus' actions made a restored relationship with God possible.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Are you saying that the angel in 19 is not a holy angel? Is this a false messenger or one who speaks the words of God? If it is a holy messenger, why will you not hear him?
What about when same message is delivered in 22:9, should we throw those words out also?
Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:
You said it was Jesus, and I pointed out that the speaker in Revelation 19 was most definitely NOT Jesus.
Now you bring up 'Holy Angel'????
As opposed to what? An 'unholy Angel'?? In Heaven? Speaking to St. John?
Sheesh, yet again!
And I listen to everyone who speaks in Revelation, but I know which Words are those of Christ, and which words are not.
Who's talking about 'throwing out words'??
You tried to posit that Jesus was NOT God simply by pointing to what occured in Revelation 19, Verse 10, and I corrected you by saying that the individual at whose feet St. John tried to worship was simply NOT Jesus.
Trust me when I tell you that I hang upon every word of the New Testament.
Every single word.
Now, insofar as Revelation 22:9 is concerned, simply look at it and the verse which precedes it:
And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. Revleation 22:8-9
See? 'Angel' once again.
When you worship Jesus, you are worshipping God.
When you try to worship an 'Holy Angel' or a dead 'Saint' on earth, you are not.
I didn't say it was Jesus talking. I just ended my post with a relevant scripture. It's a verse that tells us who to worship. You want another, in which it is Jesus speaking?
Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
On the whole, that's an odd conglmeration of prooftexting. Is this a belief that is distinct from Arianism?
I have no idea what you're talking about . . .
I looked at your sources. I didn't recognize much of anything that coincided with what I said, other than the fact that Jesus is not God. It does seem like this belief tried to make Christ some sort of semi-god. The only thing that I could add to that is what Jesus himself said:
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
FWIW (and no offense intended), I don't put much stock in man's opinions or church history. I'm more interested in what the scriptures say.
Originally Posted By Bladeswitcher:
You shouldn't put much stock in what any particular man says, but you should look to Church History to see what a great many of your fellow Believers understood in the past about the Scriptures that you read today.
Is it possible that the Christian Church has been wrong about some incredibly central subject as the Nature of Jesus Christ?
But that certainly doesn't keep some Johnny-Come-Latelys claiming to have found some grievous error in Christian Doctrine or Beliefs!
'Shazzam! It's Saturdays when we are supposed to be worshipping!'
'Our lives don't have to differ one whit from those of Nonbelievers and we will still go to Heaven!'
Stuff such as this.
But you appear to simply be among those folks who, rather recently, have discovered that Jesus is NOT God, at all!
Well, as Arianism is a very old heresy, it might be better to say that this mistaken belief has been recently revived among some folks.
Let me conclude this reply with a citation of Scripture, much as you are fond of doing, but unlike your citations, this particular one is germane to our discussion:
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. John 20:27-29
Hmmm, Jesus Christ accepted Thomas' direct address to Him as 'my Lord and my God.'
Unlike the Holy Angel in verses from Revelation which you quoted above, Jesus did NOT disabuse Thomas of the notion that He was, in fact, God.
And so the Christian Church has believed since the Very Beginning.
Is that the best you can do? You're resting your doctrine on doubting Thomas?
Why don't we skip back a few verses to John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Jesus says he has a God and it's the same God as their God.