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Posted: 9/27/2004 2:55:56 PM EST
before some of you fly off the handle, let's take a look at things here.

he has come out against our operations in iraq and afghanistan numerous times, which all leftists have done.

he has called for the nations to 'unite' and end 'the bloodshed' - another liberal talking point.

he has condemned the use of 'torture' in order to gain intel from those who are responsible for killing americans/soldiers and actively planning and plotting to kill more - again, in lock step with the liberals of the world.

and just recently he has come out against the economic differences between people in the world - almost straight out of marx.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 2:57:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/27/2004 2:58:17 PM EST by KBaker]
Does a big bear sh!t in the woods?

The Christian religions are collectivist.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 3:02:52 PM EST
then how can die-hard catholics support both bush and the pope at the same time?
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 3:15:32 PM EST
The pope is also pro life and anti stem cell research. Is he conservative?

Anti war. It's his job to promote peace.

Anti death penalty. It's his job to promote life. Any killing is bad.

The pope is kinda' all over the map.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 3:18:13 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 3:23:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By poink:
then how can die-hard catholics support both bush and the pope at the same time?



I served 7 years under clinton and remained an American. The pope is an idealist - I can handle that - he doesn't make policy - and shouldn't.

He seems to fail to realize that it takes two to tango - and we did not start this war - but I can understand his desire for a peaceful world.

Economic disparity IS a tragedy - one that can only be resolved with greater freedom.

Torture is almost NEVER justified.

I wish the woirld could unite and end bloodshed - but not if it means totalitarianism.

Link Posted: 9/27/2004 3:24:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By operatorerror:
The pope is also pro life and anti stem cell research. Is he conservative?

Anti war. It's his job to promote peace.

Anti death penalty. It's his job to promote life. Any killing is bad.

The pope is kinda' all over the map.



1. it's a shame he brainwashed so many people to be against the progress of science. it's rather reminiscient of burning printing presses.

2. without war there will never be peace, as has been demonstrated in the bible time and time again. if he claims to be the vessel through which God speaks, he should actually be telling his message, not some hippy peace activist's.

3. again, the pope's thoughts and beliefs are contrary to biblical law.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 3:29:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By Adam_White: he doesn't make policy - and shouldn't.


how can you say he doesn't make policy? any politicians who support issues contrary to the vatican's official positions have been threatened with denial of communion and ex-communication for going against the 'will of the church'.

he might not be authoring legislation, but he is severely influencing it by denying other catholics the rites their soul depend upon for going contrary to his thinking.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 3:35:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By Adam_White: he doesn't make policy - and shouldn't.


how can you say he doesn't make policy? any politicians who support issues contrary to the vatican's official positions have been threatened with denial of communion and ex-communication for going against the 'will of the church'.

he might not be authoring legislation, but he is severely influencing it by denying other catholics the rites their soul depend upon for going contrary to his thinking.



Put away the tinfoil and give me one example, please. You sound like a typical American anti-catholic with no knowledge of how things work in the Church. I should know, my own family is full of them.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 3:36:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 3:38:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 3:38:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 3:42:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By DigDug:
The pope is from communist Poland. Old habits die hard.



That is truly the dumbest thing I have read in years.

Only someone speaking from a profound level of ignorance and downright stupidity could make that statement. You do not have any idea what you are talking about.

This Pope is one of the most important people in the downfall of Communism in Europe, second only to Ronald Reagan.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 3:43:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By KBaker:
Does a big bear sh!t in the woods?



Ahhhh!!!!!! You fucking beat me too it.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 3:44:38 PM EST
DigDug!!!!
Nail.
Head.
SMACK!!!!!!
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 3:45:18 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 3:49:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 3:50:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By DigDug:
The pope is from communist Poland. Old habits die hard.



Yeah, right.

The pope could be from Mars and the stance would be the same.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 3:51:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/27/2004 3:55:45 PM EST by DigDug]
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 3:56:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By Adam_White:

Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By Adam_White: he doesn't make policy - and shouldn't.


how can you say he doesn't make policy? any politicians who support issues contrary to the vatican's official positions have been threatened with denial of communion and ex-communication for going against the 'will of the church'.

he might not be authoring legislation, but he is severely influencing it by denying other catholics the rites their soul depend upon for going contrary to his thinking.



Put away the tinfoil and give me one example, please. You sound like a typical American anti-catholic with no knowledge of how things work in the Church. I should know, my own family is full of them.



give you one example? where were you a few months ago when the church was threatening to deny many catholic lawmakers holy communion because of their support for abortion?
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 3:58:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/27/2004 3:58:21 PM EST by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By DigDug:
The pope is from communist Poland. Old habits die hard.



That is truly the dumbest thing I have read in years.

Only someone speaking from a profound level of ignorance and downright stupidity could make that statement. You do not have any idea what you are talking about.

This Pope is one of the most important people in the downfall of Communism in Europe, second only to Ronald Reagan.



And europe is all for economic freedom? europe is SOCIALIST! Do you understand that?



An you are clearly an loudmout with NO knowledge of history.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 3:58:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By operatorerror:

Originally Posted By DigDug:
The pope is from communist Poland. Old habits die hard.



Yeah, right.

The pope could be from Mars and the stance would be the same.



So you can argue he is not a socialist? Have at it.



No, I never said that. Only that his being raised in Poland under a communist regime has nothing to do with the policies of the Catholic church. The policies of the church would be the same under any pope. In a perfect Catholic world, we would all be equal in every way. Not really socialism. Probably more accurately described as pure communist.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 4:02:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By Adam_White:

Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By Adam_White: he doesn't make policy - and shouldn't.


how can you say he doesn't make policy? any politicians who support issues contrary to the vatican's official positions have been threatened with denial of communion and ex-communication for going against the 'will of the church'.

he might not be authoring legislation, but he is severely influencing it by denying other catholics the rites their soul depend upon for going contrary to his thinking.



Put away the tinfoil and give me one example, please. You sound like a typical American anti-catholic with no knowledge of how things work in the Church. I should know, my own family is full of them.



There was some talk of denying Kerry the sacraments if he did not specifically state that he was against abortion. I'm not sure whether that was rumblings from Rome or just some US bishops advocating that



It was a very small minority of US bishops, who IIRC were roundly criticized for getting involved by their peers at home and abroad.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 4:03:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By Adam_White:

Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By Adam_White: he doesn't make policy - and shouldn't.


how can you say he doesn't make policy? any politicians who support issues contrary to the vatican's official positions have been threatened with denial of communion and ex-communication for going against the 'will of the church'.

he might not be authoring legislation, but he is severely influencing it by denying other catholics the rites their soul depend upon for going contrary to his thinking.



Put away the tinfoil and give me one example, please. You sound like a typical American anti-catholic with no knowledge of how things work in the Church. I should know, my own family is full of them.



There was some talk of denying Kerry the sacraments if he did not specifically state that he was against abortion. I'm not sure whether that was rumblings from Rome or just some US bishops advocating that



Yes, indeed, but "some talk" by some Bishops over an issue as central to Catholic teachings as the sanctity of life, though, is a far cry from the Pope threatening excommunication of world leaders if they assisted in our war effort.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 4:05:51 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 4:07:23 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 4:10:39 PM EST
Does the Pope shit in the woods?
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 4:13:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By operatorerror:

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By operatorerror:

Originally Posted By DigDug:
The pope is from communist Poland. Old habits die hard.



Yeah, right.

The pope could be from Mars and the stance would be the same.



So you can argue he is not a socialist? Have at it.



No, I never said that. Only that his being raised in Poland under a communist regime has nothing to do with the policies of the Catholic church. The policies of the church would be the same under any pope. In a perfect Catholic world, we would all be equal in every way. Not really socialism. Probably more accurately described as pure communist.



Max_mike, you see this in red?



Even "pure" Communist implies a centrally planned economy, and the sacrifice the fruits of your labor / intellect to the state.

The Pope would no doubt prefer a libertarian system, but where everyone exhibited Christain charity to those less capable of succeeding in such an environment. Communism (even "pure" Communism) is an atheistic and totalitarian system - despite Marxist propaganda to the contrary.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 4:24:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By KBaker:
Does a big bear sh!t in the woods?

The Christian religions are collectivist.

not so. protestantism is heavily individualistic, focusing on personal relationships with God rather than a systematic heirarchy of other people. obviously, catholicism is a lot more organized and collective as you say.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 4:31:31 PM EST
Max-Mike is correct. Dig_Dug you must be the #1 dumbest sad sack we have seen around here. Tell us how old you really are?

The Pope appears to be leftist but in reality he is in fact following the Teachings of Christ as he sees them, with a heavy dose on taking care of those less fortunate.

Do you remember when the Bulgarian Secret Service tried to have him killed at the direction of the KGB? I would even go so far to say that he may have had more to do with the Fall of Communism in Eastern Europe than Reagan did. Reagan knocked the Soviet Union out of the game and the Pope may have been the one that took Poland out of the picture and once Poland was gone the rest couldn't stand.

If you weren't old enough to understand and see the collapse of the Soviet Empire, you can't understand how amazing it was.

This was a Man who fought the Nazis and then the Communists all his life. You might not agree with his religious beliefs but he has to be ranked as one of the most important people in the last half on the 20th Century.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 4:45:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By poink:

where were you a few months ago when the church was threatening to deny many catholic lawmakers holy communion because of their support for abortion?



Abortion is the only issue where that was discussed. Because Abortion is one of the most vile and destructive sins in today's society. And politicians are the ones directly responsible for perpetuating it.


Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By operatorerror:
The pope is also pro life and anti stem cell research. Is he conservative?


it's a shame he brainwashed so many people to be against the progress of science. it's rather reminiscient of burning printing presses.




Against scientific progress? Do you know where they get these stem cells?
Why don't you go have a big steaming cup of SG (no, not a cup of STFU, but SG - Soylent Green).

Link Posted: 9/27/2004 4:50:48 PM EST
I do agree that the Catholic Church (and all other churches) should step up the plate and handle charity themselves rather than encouraging people to vote for incorporating charity into government.

But that would involve everyone giving 10% of your income to a church instead of the 30%-50% to the Gov't and we can't have that evil church hierarchy getting our money now, can we?
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 4:53:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:

Originally Posted By KBaker:
Does a big bear sh!t in the woods?

The Christian religions are collectivist.

not so. protestantism is heavily individualistic, focusing on personal relationships with God rather than a systematic heirarchy of other people. obviously, catholicism is a lot more organized and collective as you say.



You win the "broad brush" award for sweeping generalizations not supported by reality.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 5:04:16 PM EST
sure he is
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 5:11:17 PM EST
This is one of my big problems lately with the Church (I am Catholic). Lots of emphasis in the Mass readings and sermons that wealth is evil, etc. Seems like the Bible has a very "zero sum" view of economics. But economics isn't zero sum and surely God knows that. I need to find a smart Jesuit with economics training to get some answers.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 5:23:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By GunLvrPHD:
... I need to find a smart Jesuit with economics training to get some answers.

GunLvr



Jesuits rock. It's too bad they lack influence at the Vatican.
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 5:27:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By operatorerror:
The pope is also pro life and anti stem cell research. Is he conservative?

Anti war. It's his job to promote peace.

Anti death penalty. It's his job to promote life. Any killing is bad.

The pope is kinda' all over the map.



1. it's a shame he brainwashed so many people to be against the progress of science. it's rather reminiscient of burning printing presses.

2. without war there will never be peace, as has been demonstrated in the bible time and time again. if he claims to be the vessel through which God speaks, he should actually be telling his message, not some hippy peace activist's.

3. again, the pope's thoughts and beliefs are contrary to biblical law.



gibberish. Where did Jesus tell us to make war so we could have peace? I am sure Jesus would be all for stem cell research. Which of the Popes beliefs that operatorerror mentioned are contrary to biblical law?
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