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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/11/2002 5:22:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/14/2002 5:27:10 AM EST by bountyhunter]
After Rodney King and the endless supply of videos of officers using the night stick on suspects,is it time to retire it as a piece of police equipment. I mean I know all about the take downs and holds, but if you got to get that close to a suspect should not a stun gun or hand holds be used, it sure would look less brutal on video. Police Administrators are down on them ,but I would think that it would benefit the department by looking less brutal than an officer appearing to beat the snot out of a suspect, even though he is hitting muscle mass and not the head or bone area.( for the purpose of this disscussion the word night stick includes all PR 24's ,ASP's etc.)----NOTE TO ALL please see page 2 for clarification on this issue messed up big time and gave a misleading opinion.
Link Posted: 7/11/2002 8:12:45 AM EST
"Stun guns," physical takedowns and control holds require that you grapple with the suspect, and many require at least some level of cooperation from the suspect. There is a much greater potential for officer injury and loss of weapons to the suspect and one or two good shots below the shoulders will usually take the fight out of most bad guys. I only had to use one just one time in my abreviated carreer. I hit a suspect with in the gut with a "pool cue" jab using a PR-24. It took the fight right out of him...until I had to drop it on the ground to handcuff him. The fight was back on. He went to jail with a very, very sore wrist and my "initials" carved in the side of his car by the big rodeo belt buckle he was wearing. If you had the benefit of seeing the full Rodney King video with sound, you would have realized that about half of the swings that Powell took were strikes against the pavement, not King. That sends a sharp shock right up the arm of the officer. Also, the tempo of the swings slowed dramatically as the incident dragged on. One more thing. The video shown on TV was time compressed (sped up) about 25% to 40%, making it look like the officer was really wailing on King. In fact, after the first few swings, there was a pause after just about every one and the voice of an officer shouting a command, occasionally audible as something like "Don't move," or "Stop moving." King kept trying to move away. When he stopped, Powell stopped, too. The various types of impact weapons have their place in law enforcement and corrections. Retiring them would only serve to embolden the bad guys and hasten the use deadly force since you would be taking away one of the less lethal tools available to the officer.
Link Posted: 7/11/2002 8:19:23 AM EST
It's another tool in the bag. A integral part of the use of force continuum. Presence, Verbal commands, Empty hands, Chemical irritants, Striking weapons, Deadly force. It looks bad because it is bad, but usually necessary. Police work is for lack of a better term "a contact sport" people resist arrest, people get hurt. Police work is performed by human beings. Emotions run high during a resisting arrest situation. High emotions skew perceptions. What seems perfectly rational to the arresting officer looks and might arguably be unnecessary use of force or escalation of the use of force continuum to an observer who is not emotionally involved in the situation. These sensationalized video taped uses of force must be viewed from the officers perspective. What was his perception of the situation at the time of the incident? What led to the use of force?Was it a reasonable response that could be expected from the average rational human being? When it comes to controlling their emotions the public has unreasonably high expectations of police officers. They make unreasonable demands. They want criminals punished. They want criminals to fear the police. How many times do we see videos of use of force and hear people say that guy got what he deserved? How many times do we hear about a crime and people say "The cops need to kick this guys ass when they find him" or "I hope the cops kill him, he doesn't deserve a trial for what he did". They same people freak out when they see edited video on the news of a cop using force to effect an arrest. Sure cops do bad things, people do bad things under the stress of adrenaline rushes. Police Officers are action oriented people. They have a strong sense of duty, of right and wrong, of crime and punishment. They are trying to protect the community they serve, bring the bad guys to justice. If the cops lose the fight or let a bad guy get cheap shots in without retaliation they see the bad guy getting over on the Police, on the community they are sworn to protect, on the decent hard working law abiding people they serve and that can't happen. There's a reason it's called law enFORCEment. Use of force is part of the job description. Rodney King!?! The LAPD gave that career thug exactly what he deserved. The citizens of L.A. county ripped themselves off when they paid off that P.O.S. Retire the "night stick" ? I don't think so. The take downs and holds are useless. It's best used as a striking instrument, a club if you prefer. Pain compliance techniques still have their place in police work. Maybe police would look less brutal if more of them were killed because they were afraid to use necessary force when it was required. That's what we need, let the bad guys have a fair chance to win the fight.[rolleyes]. After all one on one and may the best man win is good sport right? Not in law enFORCEment. The name of the game is to apprehend criminals. They don't always go peacefully. If we catch them they are going to jail. If they prefer to take their chances and resist then they are still going to jail after a stop in the local trauma center. The choice is theirs, the responsibility of the consequences of their actions rests on their shoulders.
Link Posted: 7/11/2002 9:49:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/14/2002 5:28:54 AM EST by bountyhunter]
I know the night stick ,pr24, asp ,can do the job through pain compliance and works, the great percentage of the time. But LEO's are getting sued and losing even though they are doing as there trained to do. And if you pool stick someone or strike them it seems to me your already grappling with them so what the heck ,move in close put the stun gun into his chest zap him with about 600,000 volts, gently lay him down cuff and call for help to put him in the cruiser. Now before anyone says pacemaker or heart attack, remember when you hit a guy your hitting arterys and veins and can knock plaque off the side of them and this goes through the system and can cause stroke or death also, it just looks worst than a stun gun to the chest, besides if the guy had a pace maker it would be easier to say his time was just up and the good lord called him to his judgement during the course of the arrest.PS Rodney King was a dirt bag, who got what he deserved , the cops who arrested him did not as so many since then have and will.----note to all see page 2 for clarification on this issue,sorry for the confusion.
Link Posted: 7/11/2002 2:37:48 PM EST
I like having the ASP as an option. The simple expanding that provides a psycholgical deterrent, sometimes making people thing twice. Its about the only thing people see on my duty belt (mine's set up crossdraw and is real visible) and go "It looks like that thing would hurt." OC doesn't have that deterrent effect. We've recently added Advanced Taser (for patrol supervisors, right now), and I think that?s a good option, but its another large item to add to the duty belt, and they seem to be getting left in the car. I was also on-scene for a situation several weeks ago (before we had tasers at all) where OC was completely ineffective, and the baton probably kept us from having to use deadly force. My vote is definitely for keeping them around. (how about a poll?) dp[0J]
Link Posted: 7/11/2002 2:43:44 PM EST
i have had to useds the ASP twice on occaisions where OC spray did not work. batons work through muscle reaction, not pain compliance, which means it works whether they feel pain or not. i also agree that without the ASP, i probably would have had to go to lethal force.
Link Posted: 7/11/2002 4:03:45 PM EST
BATONS OUTDATED? NOT UNTILL WE GET CAPT KIRKS PHASER. I AM AN INSTRUCTOR IN MOST LESS THAN LETHAL SYSTEMS INCUDING, ASP, PR-24, TASER ETC. ALL HAVE THERE ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES. THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH LESS THAN LETHAL IS LACK OF TRAINING. OFFICERS MUST QUALIFY ANNUALY, MONTHLY ...ETC, WITH THERE FIRE ARMS BUT VERY FEW HAVE TO QUALIFY WITH THE "BASICS". IN THE KING CASE LAPD ISSUED THE MONADOCK PR-24 BUT CHOSE NOT TO FOLLOW THERE TRAINING INSTEAD USING THEIR OWN. IN ALL THEY RECEIVED 8 HOURS OF TRAINING ON USING IT. I HAVE WATCHED THE KING VIDEO MANY TIMES AND THERE STRIKES WHERE NOT EFFECTIVE FORMANY REASONS. IT DID NOT HELP THE OFFICERS THAT KING HAD A TASER IN HIM. WATCH THE VIDEO ONE OFFICER IS STRAITENING THE WIRES SO HE CAN RESTUN KING. TRAINING IS THE KEY...DONT BLAME THE WEAPON.
Link Posted: 7/11/2002 4:17:57 PM EST
Okla-Lawman, First and foremost, welcome to AR15.com (also known as the asylum). Stick around, this is a great site. You'll be addicted soon enough (if not already).Second, in the future please try and refrain from using all caps in your postings. It makes it very difficult to read your posts and is the cyber equivalent to yelling. Again, welcome to the show, to the show that never ends..... Safe tour, Chris
Link Posted: 7/11/2002 4:30:07 PM EST
Stun guns don't just put people to sleep so easily. You have to hold it on them and keep the switch suppressed for a number of seconds even while they are flailing to get away, or hurt you.
Link Posted: 7/11/2002 5:52:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/11/2002 5:57:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/11/2002 6:00:47 PM EST by chwi548]
I took a course a couple years at a previous employer by a trainer from Hennepin Couty Sheriffs Dept called Realistic Suspect Apprehension. In it, he showed us techniques to use the baton as a tool to bring a suspects arms out from underneath him when he's laying on them to keep from being cuffed (Used that one a few times). He also showed uses of the baton as a pressure device on a tendon above the elbow to assist in compliance, the same on the shins, and as the impact weapon that everyone knows about. It's also a great tool when you have to make a forced entry. I've had to do that twice as well. What else will you break class with? The collapsible baton when collasped makes a great defense tool that can be concealed when walking in a high theat area, and be ready for many situations that don't call for deadly force. It's too versatile a tool on the belt I feel. I won't get rid of my 26 inch collapsible, or the 26 inch hickory in the squad.
Link Posted: 7/11/2002 10:45:40 PM EST
Used properly the night stick doesnt look that bad. The problem with the rodney king tape is it show 20 or 30 little love taps. Correctly deployed it would have only been a couple of blows which doesnt look bad on tape. If i hit you with my nightsticjk every hit is going to result in either a broken bone on your body or a broken nightstick. That is the correct way to use it. Break the femur, break the upper arm, it is an injury force tool, not a pain compliance tool. I dislike the ASP as in my experiance it has a tendency to cut the skin and not brek bones as easy as the classic nightstick. I dont want the suspect blleding and mobile. I want him bruised and broken.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 10:17:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By AR15fan: UsIf i hit you with my nightsticjk every hit is going to result in either a broken bone on your body or a broken nightstick. That is the correct way to use it. Break the femur, break the upper arm, it is an injury force tool, not a pain compliance tool. I dislike the ASP as in my experiance it has a tendency to cut the skin and not brek bones as easy as the classic nightstick. .
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WTF?????????? i am a bruce siddle certified PPCT instructor. what the HELL kind of technique are you being taught???????????? you want to break bones?
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 10:42:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By bountyhunter:
Originally Posted By quietshoez:
Originally Posted By AR15fan: UsIf i hit you with my nightsticjk every hit is going to result in either a broken bone on your body or a broken nightstick. That is the correct way to use it. Break the femur, break the upper arm, it is an injury force tool, not a pain compliance tool. I dislike the ASP as in my experiance it has a tendency to cut the skin and not brek bones as easy as the classic nightstick. .
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WTF?????????? i am a bruce siddle certified PPCT instructor. what the HELL kind of technique are you being taught???????????? you want to break bones?
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I am a retired certified instructor with the Ohio Peace Officer Academy, to teach, well a lot of course subjects and use of force (impact devices)is one of them and I'm with you , must be a different jurisdiction ,with some way out there rules????????could be Federal ,never thought of that
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actually, bountyhunter, the more i think about it, the more i realize i have heard that before, i think it's MP training, or some other military type thing...........
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 11:13:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/12/2002 11:18:56 AM EST by AR15fan]
Originally Posted By quietshoez: what the HELL kind of technique are you being taught???????????? you want to break bones?
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Yes. Per California POST, the Baton is an Injury force weapon, not a pain compliance tool. Acceptable targets are the collorbone, upper arm, upper leg. The head and neck are unacceptable targets unless its a deadly force situation, in which you should transition to a firearm. what looks worse to the public? One strike that breaks the femur and ends the fight. Or 15 hits that bruise the suspect, leaving him fighting all the way to the jail? I'm shocked that anyone teaches the Baton aa a pain compince tool, it's not a friggen kubaton.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 11:38:50 AM EST
what the HELL kind of technique are you being taught???????????? you want to break bones?
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How do you hit someone with (what is basically) a metal pipe without breaking bones?z
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 1:29:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/12/2002 6:38:12 PM EST by bountyhunter]
Last thing I knew before retiring was you never hit the head with a baton type instrument , if the case was that you could do this you would have been able to use your firearm.Because this can be considered deadly force, I thought this was almost a nationwide rule, guess I was wrong. I guess the rules /laws can be different for different States as the training, any training Officers out there that can input this for me. Because now I am real curious.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 1:49:57 PM EST
"bountyhunter" [b]Previously posted by bountyhunter[/b]
Ok, I can tell everyone now that I am with the DEA, we have done ISP (internet provider) traces on everyone who has been pro Marijuana , we borrowed the FBI machine Carnivore to do this , you all will be on 7/24 hour surveillance, everyone except Glock31 he is a DARE officer from KY, and is safe. This message is in accordance with Federal rule 3491. title 1971.
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Note the bogus "Federal rule." [b]Previously posted by "cyanide":[/b]
Ok everyone take a deep breath bountyhunter is a friend of mine and he is a retired deputy sheriff not DEA, I think he got kicked off of the board for what was a JOKE , his last post. moderaters need to lighten up.
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[b]Previously posted by bountyhunter[/b]
I am a retired certified instructor with the Ohio Peace Officer Academy, to teach, well a lot of course subjects and use of force (impact devices)is one of them...
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So, are you a multi-talented individual or just a smoke-blower? Please clear this up for me. Dave G Moderator
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 1:53:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/12/2002 1:57:31 PM EST by quietshoez]
i dunno dave_g gonna have to go with smoke blower or wannabe. I AM a certified PPCT instructor, and the ONLY place i have heard crap like that is from people who were MPs like 20 years ago. that shit went out with the "caveman swing" which was outdated even before the LAPD Lamb baton technique, which was itself outdated by the 1980s. breaking bones? jesus christ. yes, it happens, but it's not the goal.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 1:58:27 PM EST
Stun gun. I still prefer a trumble stick.
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 2:10:12 PM EST
Sure why not! While you're at it, go ahead and get rid of your guns, cuffs, and other stuff. Just use your words and a stern look!! This ain't mayberry fellas! Cops should have whatever they need at their disposal. All the best laid plans go to hell when the SHTF. Remember, the situation dictates, and no one can predict the future (except miss cleo, of course, but she's not a cop.)
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 2:11:35 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 2:31:37 PM EST
First off, so that no one gets the wrong idea, let me spout off with my credentials: (This will be very short) I'm no instructor. I took the Monadnock PR-24 Pre-Basic course in 1991. I learned how not to hurt myself with it and saw a cool video from which I only remember the "Georgia State Police Takedown" but I wouldn't be able to execute one to save my life. I carried that PR-24 on my hip opposite my sidearm as a security officer for two years from late 1991-1993. Never used it once. Florida only requires certification for law enforcement officers, not security personnel. I started carrying an Asp expandable in 1995 because it fit better on my belt than the PR and I wanted a cool-looking impact weapon. To date, I have broken 3 windows with that ASP, no bones, nothing else. I have deployed it exactly ONCE in a defensive capability, with every intent in my mind (one thing about the Monadnock course was the Green/Yellow/Red zones and I remember them clearly) for taking the leg out from under the assailant in the green zone. Mere deployment of the baton made him change his mind. Before you ask whether an impact tool should be retired, I retort: "And replace it with WHAT? Harsh Language??" A taser? I don't think so. Tasers and stunguns are fragile and take batteries. Ask the beat cop who had to back up one of my stupider brother officers who was carrying an "electric weapon" that got bopped just a little too hard and broke the battery cover, spilling the batteries all over the ground and was being pummelled mercilessly for his lack of forethought in equipment selection. I wasn't there. I just read the report and was disgusted. As for OC spray...it's iffy. I've USED OC spray more often than a baton because on my Use of Force Continuum, the chemical is BELOW the Impact weapon...The two people I've gassed dropped like rocks and became relatively compliant after a half-second burst to the facial area. I was lucky. It doesn't always work that way. Replace the baton? With WHAT? Until someone comes up with a tool that's as reliable, effective, and versatile as the baton, my answer will be a resounding HELL NO. Because REAL criminals, unlike the ones you see in the movies, are unpredictable, dangerous animals, and no amount of "I know you're upset" psychobabble is going to protect you or make your job any easier when you have the unenviable position of having to take them to jail. Armchair "Experts" who say the baton is obsolete have never been in the shoes of someone who has had to use one. Keep this and one other thing in line: They do not value your life as much as you do. No matter what they say. "Officer Safety" is just a buzzword for these suits...it doesn't translate into the blood-and-guts of the real world. I may not be in "The Business" anymore, but that doesn't mean I don't know what it's like. I'm no instructor, I'm no 20-year street veteran. I'm just a guy who had to do some similar jobs over the years. Oh, and one last thing: The breaking bones stuff? That's 1970's era MP training. I have a friend who was an MP. The training was, in a nutshell, "Anywhere God gave 'em two bones, one was meant to be broken" (Meaning the lower arm, lower leg). I was a little horrified but realized that the Military is quite a different situation than civilian law enforcement. Just my .02 Panz [bounce]
Link Posted: 7/12/2002 7:41:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/14/2002 4:46:46 AM EST by bountyhunter]
Originally Posted By quietshoez: i dunno dave_g gonna have to go with smoke blower or wannabe. I AM a certified PPCT instructor, and the ONLY place i have heard crap like that is from people who were MPs like 20 years ago. that shit went out with the "caveman swing" which was outdated even before the LAPD Lamb baton technique, which was itself outdated by the 1980s. breaking bones? jesus christ. yes, it happens, but it's not the goal.
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Quietshz (sp) After 26 years in Law Enforcement the only thing I wannabe is what I am retired, and have been out of it for three years now ,fishing, hunting, and camping. PS I never said anything about breaking bones read more closly please in the future, thanking you in advance . POSTED RETRACTION 9-14-02 OK now I get it my poor reading skills lead me down the path to looking like a dumb ass, guess I deserve it.( please see updates)
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 4:24:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/14/2002 8:23:09 AM EST by bountyhunter]
Originally Posted By quietshoez: i dunno dave_g gonna have to go with smoke blower or wannabe. I AM a certified PPCT instructor, and the ONLY place i have heard crap like that is from people who were MPs like 20 years ago. that shit went out with the "caveman swing" which was outdated even before the LAPD Lamb baton technique, which was itself outdated by the 1980s. breaking bones? jesus christ. yes, it happens, but it's not the goal.
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Ok man ,did I goof on that one I misread it and thought the guy was asking the question "do you want to break bones? "MY MISTAKE" ,I was wrong , wrong , wrong, let me again post a retraction, you don't intend to break bones, it can happen , but that is not the goal. I really messed up on that one. Wonder how many times I'll have to fix this?
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 1:07:52 PM EST
[size=6][red][b]FOR THE RECORD:[/size=6][/red][/b] I received documentation from bountyhunter that indicates that he was certified as an instructor by the Ohio Peace Officer Training Council in several disciplines. I'm satisfied that he is who and what he claimed to be and that the "DEA" post in GD was nothing more than a joke. He is as entitled to his opinions here as anyone else. I apologize for any inference I may have made that suggested that he was less than genuine.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 1:12:14 PM EST
please don't send me any more emails, i don't care if you have a certificate from GOD. you're training and methods are still flawed. it get called to court a couple of times a year to represent officers that say stupid things like you just said in court, parroting what they heard, costing the depts and the taxpayers millions.
Link Posted: 7/14/2002 3:51:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/14/2002 3:52:10 PM EST by bountyhunter]
This post lost direction a ways back, the post was is the baton/night stick obsolete equipment, and it turned into a proper use of the baton/night stick debate, I am out of here .PS thanks dave_g
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 5:44:34 AM EST
I keep using the PR-24 as a door chock, so that other officers can enter the building when I call an all out 10-13 or 10-85. I like OC Spray much better anyhow
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 6:25:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/15/2002 11:56:17 AM EST by bountyhunter]
Ok, I lied I am not out of here, and since the direction of the post has changed I might as well "go with the flow" one of the handiest things I carried on my duty belt was a Leatherman type tool, it had wire cutters, for flex cuffs, knife for seat belts(serrated blade), and opened into a plier instrument that could be used as a door chock also, the list of things I used it for would fill the post, loved them, carried it in a single mag pouch. I've found six types of people on web sites, those that know, those that think they know, those that do not know, and those that will know, those that will never know. and those that think they know it all. ( I guess at one time or another, I myself will fit into one of these categories, but I hope I never fall into the "I know it all category.")
Link Posted: 7/15/2002 9:16:25 PM EST
Take it from a patrolman who does not have an impact weapon on his gear list. Tis' better to have than have not. I'm an ASP certified officer from Texas who moved to North Dakota. When I got hired at my present department three years ago, I was informed that since they issue a PR24 then I could not carry my ASP even though I'm certified and already have my own equipment for it. I was also advised that until I get certified with the PR I could not carry it either. The other new officers were also trained on the ASP in their academy. They are also not allowed to carry the PR. The PR24's sit in the patrol units unused because none of us have been trained to deploy them since being hired. The general consensus is that the upper level brass has enjoyed the fact that there have been no impact weapons used (since nobody carries them anymore) and is working on getting rid of impact weapons altogether with no alternatives. They actually list OC spray as an impact weapon. WTF! The whole damn state is nuts on this one. OC has failed up here 75% of the time that I've seen it used due, I think, to the dry climate conditions. It worked very well in Texas due to the high humidity. OC needs moisture to work effectively. There have been multiple scenarios where an impact weapon should have been deployed but we had to get into a grappling match instead. I don't know if any of the anti-impact weapon guys remember that one fight a night is not an enforced limit. You only go home if it's end of shift or you get HURT. My plan is getting home with all of my fingers and toes intact. Less than a week ago, I had an incident that demonstrates this perfectly. One on one confrontation with a person I know through past contacts to be emotionally unstable and physically aggressive. During a loud noise complaint, my partner and I made contact with a driver of a vehicle and his passenger. The passenger is the aforementioned terd. Alcohol in vehicle, subject is a minor (albeit a large one). Partner tied up dealing with driver. I remove terd from the vehicle and begin the whole "let me make sure you haven't been drinking" line. I don't get three words out. Right after telling him to put his hands behind his back the dumbshit says "you're not doing this to me". I get about a step away from him and he lunges, pushing on my chest with both hands. If I hadn't moved back and braced defensively he would have knocked me over. (OC has failed to work on this goober before) The only object handy was the department issued streamlight. I assumed my ASP trained stance (with the flashlight) and gave him the verbal warning prior to striking. He halted his advance and ran in the opposite direction. This all happened in about 3 seconds if that long. Did I want to hit the dipshit, not really. Would I have if he had advanced, shit yes. Would I have been in deep shit with the brass for stroking him, most likely. My rather long winded point is that more options are always good. My departments SOP is shaping to use OC only when a physical threat is imminent. An officer that used it in response to aggressive verbal behavior and a "perceived" threat got an ass chewing. Last time I checked my job description does not include professional wrestler. It is no fun going to work knowing that your administration cares more about the complaints received by them than the potential injuries for their officers.
Link Posted: 7/16/2002 11:52:00 AM EST
Ok , cmoth, for the record, when you were certified, were you told to break bones , if so-or-not , what were you told , just to let an old guy on in the new training techniques? Thanking you in advance .
Link Posted: 7/16/2002 8:02:41 PM EST
Bountyhunter Negative, at no time during my instruction did the instructor or anyone else ever mention that breaking bones was a goal. The three main targets of the ASP tactical baton are the elbow (center mass of the arm), knee (center mass of the leg) and torso (center mass of the body). Most instruction actually utilized strikes aimed above or below the actual joint in order to lessen the possibility of an "unintentional" fracture. While striking someone with a rod or pipe could break something (that's why it's an intermediate force option) it is not the end result sought. The uitilization of force is for the purpose of halting an aggressive action. I'm sure most were instructed in Police instruction (non-military) that when using deadly force the goal is to "stop" the assailant from causing death or serious bodily injury to you or another. Breaking of bones is included in the "serious bodily injury" category. That's why you can shoot someone who is assailing you with a club. You better be able to justify that your intent to break bones was to prevent deadly force from being used against you. To break bones by accident while using a baton as you were trained is one thing. Doing it with intent is a higher level of force.
Link Posted: 7/16/2002 8:46:59 PM EST
For the record Army MP's are taught to strike large muscles, upper leg being perfered. Hands, wrist, elabows, to name a few are off limits, the Army wants the MP's to capture people, but not damage US Army property........ The issued nightsticks are also designed to break at like 8 lbs of force. That is supposed to be less force than is required to damage an elbow joint.
Link Posted: 7/16/2002 9:52:45 PM EST
Oly-M4gery Just an aside, I recently confiscated a straight stick baton out of a vehicle. It was black (duh), about 20" long and was stamped US on the butt of the grooved handle. If this one is indeed mil-issue I can see how it would break fairly easily. It looked like it was made out of yellow pine or a similar soft-wood (it was also cracked near the handle). One of the older guys on my PD (Nam-Vet MP) said that their batons were made of hickory. He doesn't recall ever being trained to "intentionally" break bones either.
Link Posted: 7/17/2002 10:11:33 AM EST
Bounty Hunter, It looks like you like to stir the pot or you are on too much ginseng root. The night-stick or PR 24 are excellent when used properly & at the right times. Not often is an arrestee going to have a pacemaker! Forget Rodney King.... It's the newly televised videos of poor judgment on officers over-reaction on a person whom is already handcuffed that is the problem. The officers let the emotions of the moment take over with big brother ( the video Cam ) watching. Both the night-stick and PR24 have a use in L.E. just use common sense. Doughboy
Link Posted: 7/18/2002 11:27:15 AM EST
Over reaction??? Watch the video and pay close attention. The kid in the clearly went limp as the officer was getting him to the car. The officer has to carry all of the the kids weight as he puts him up on the car (all this after he just got through fighting with him). Have you ever carried anything that was heavy and heaved it up onto something? It's no wonder the kid was dropped onto the hood. Then the kid grabs and squeezes the officers "package" and won't let go. What would YOU do if someone was squeezing the hell out of your balls?
.....Forget Rodney King.... It's the newly televised videos of poor judgment on officers over-reaction on a person whom is already handcuffed that is the problem. The officers let the emotions of the moment take over with big brother ( the video Cam ) watching. Both the night-stick and PR24 have a use in L.E. just use common sense. Doughboy
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Link Posted: 7/19/2002 5:13:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By cmoth: They actually list OC spray as an impact weapon. WTF! The whole damn state is nuts on this one. OC has failed up here 75% of the time that I've seen it used due, I think, to the dry climate conditions. It worked very well in Texas due to the high humidity. OC needs moisture to work effectively.
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That may explain my success with it. As you know, Florida is a little bit humid down here. I never used it in the PRK when I started my security career (Actually, back then the issue was Sabre CS spray...which we had to get sprayed with as part of our "certification"...ugh) I know OC is iffy. I've just not had it fail on me yet. But if it DOES fail, and I'm not carrying my Asp or other intermediate weapon, I must transition to my sidearm while attempting to disengage from the situation. Most of my training, alas, is a joke. How I've stayed alive having as big a mouth and as small a brain as I do has been sheer dumb luck. Panz [bounce]
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 5:26:16 PM EST
Yes doughboy, I was trying to stir the minds of LEO'S for their opinions, that is all. And I see that there are many, and that is ok. everyone will have a different one, as I've found out due to there local and training methods.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 10:10:08 AM EST
Originally Posted By quietshoez: actually, bountyhunter, the more i think about it, the more i realize i have heard that before, i think it's MP training, or some other military type thing...........
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No, they don't teach that at the MP school.
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