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Posted: 9/6/2005 12:57:03 PM EDT
more to the point is it worth you or a family members life.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 12:58:56 PM EDT
In the end, yes. Because if we don't bring Islam kicking and screaming into the 21st Century, we'll never stop Islamic terrorism.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:00:03 PM EDT
What do you think, out of curiosity?
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:00:41 PM EDT
Most soldiers seem to think so.

Was it JFK who said that when one man is not free, no man is free?
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:03:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RikWriter:
In the end, yes. Because if we don't bring Islam kicking and screaming into the 21st Century, we'll never stop Islamic terrorism.




Well said.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:03:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SubnetMask:
What do you think, out of curiosity?



I am trying to come to grips with the fact that I may very well have to risk my life for OEF.
I have alot to live for and am just curios what some of you guys think.
Death is forever and I see that as a high price considering the Iraqis current behavior.hinking.gif
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:04:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gsd-Rocky:
more to the point is it worth you or a family members life.


Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:04:48 PM EDT
What about the Sudan? There's worse genocide and brutality going on there.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:05:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gsd-Rocky:

Originally Posted By SubnetMask:
What do you think, out of curiosity?



I am trying to come to grips with the fact that I may very well have to risk my life for OEF.
I have alot to live for and am just curios what some of you guys think.
Death is forever and I see that as a high price considering the Iraqis current behavior.hinking.gif



EDIT: Operation Iraq Freedom sorryh.gif
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:07:01 PM EDT
Is the freedom of Iraq worth one American soldiers life?

No. However, we are there to better secure our country's future.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:07:52 PM EDT
Yes
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:08:24 PM EDT
It's not just about the freedom of Iraqis. If that were the sole reason, then I'd say no. But that isn't the case. A free Iraq isn't just something that will make us feel good, but it will make us safer. Why? A free Iraq will mean it isn't under Taliban type extremist rule that most supports terrorism. Plus, they are now an important ally in the region. Should the need arise, we have a nation now in the center of the Midle East from which we can base from.

Again, it's not just about Iraqis. It's also about our interests. Making sure we achieve our goals there directly benefits us. It just happens to help them too.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:08:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lon_Moer:

Originally Posted By gsd-Rocky:
more to the point is it worth you or a family members life.


hr


Sorry no troll here I AM willing to die for this operation. When I signed I accepted the unlimited liability of military service and am damn proud of it.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:10:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
It's not just about the freedom of Iraqis. If that were the sole reason, then I'd say no. But that isn't the case. A free Iraq isn't just something that will make us feel good, but it will make us safer. Why? A free Iraq will mean it isn't under Taliban type extremist rule that most supports terrorism. Plus, they are now an important ally in the region. Should the need arise, we have a nation now in the center of the Midle East from which we can base from.

Again, it's not just about Iraqis. It's also about our interests. Making sure we achieve our goals there directly benefits us. It just happens to help them too.



Well said thankshug.gif
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:16:20 PM EDT
The liberation of Iraq is worth nothing to me...it never has been.
The only reason I support troops in that country was originally to kill off the leadership, and now only to make sure they got all the potential future troublemakers BEFORE they rise to power.

I get sickened everytime yet another soldier dies in the name of the liberation of that shit hole.
Im not one of those people that feels the US should be saving people that can save themselves.

Sadaam and his sons were a threat.....now the sons are dead and the big guy is in custody.
Frankly, I see less and less reasons to remain there.
People like to say that if we pulled out there would be a civil war....tough shit..its not the US governements job to completely manufacture a society for these people...we killed off their oppressors...at what point are they going to grab the fucking baton and run on their own?

If there is a legitimate threat to our national security, and it resides within the borders of Iraq, I say keep our troops there until we have eliminated the threat. Unless someone can think of a reason to keep our guys (my family included) over there, I think its time to say 'Job Complete'

At this point, it isnt pulling out....its called coming home, the job is done.
Nation building is for politicians, not soldiers....and if the politicians cant get that job done without the soldiers, too fucking bad...maybe we shouldnt be building nations in the first place then.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:17:14 PM EDT
We can fight them here, or we can fight them there. We will have to fight them one way or another.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:20:45 PM EDT
Not really. Call me a sicko but I could give a damn for people who put up with brutal dictorial regimes. You want freedom? Earn it for yourself, rather than just sit and wait for "THEM" to come and take you and yours away to the camps, firing lines, etc. As for controling islamic fundamentalists, they perpetrate acts with brutal force because its what they understand and respond, saddam had to rule with an iron fist for a reason didnt he? Lets give it back to them 10 fold from the air, we have the means. We gave the taliban what, a 3 week head start with warnings to "PLEASE HAND OVER OSAMA BIN LADEN." WTF for? Bomb their government buildings to pieces if they not only fail to control their riffraff, but much worse AID in their terrorist acts. Look at it this way, palestinians arent suicide bombing us on US soil because they are embroiled in a more local battleground. Same could work for the other trouble causing nations. If they are engaged in civil war they will be too busy to export their violence. Hmm it'd work if just didnt need their crude... I just dont see mutual peace and love in the middle east as ever happening, and I'm disgusted we consider proping up yet another islamic regime as any kind of progress.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:21:58 PM EDT
No. Unless you want to die for it. And ...if we were serious, instead of running around in circles over there, it would have been cleaned up like the first GW. We didn't fuck around then and that was made abundantly clear to the world in short order. I personally am not going to get all blowed up so Abdul can sell fucking olives in the market and little Iraqi kids can crap in a flush toilet. Not my problem.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:23:14 PM EDT
Absolutely not. But an American soldier's life is worth it to keep Israel safe, which is the real reason we're in Iraq. Jews run the world. Cindy Sheehan told me.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 1:33:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By skpp108:
No. Unless you want to die for it. And ...if we were serious, instead of running around in circles over there, it would have been cleaned up like the first GW. We didn't fuck around then and that was made abundantly clear to the world in short order. I personally am not going to get all blowed up so Abdul can sell fucking olives in the market and little Iraqi kids can crap in a flush toilet. Not my problem.



Sometimes I feel the same way but I dont have much of a choicehinking.gif
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:23:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By skpp108:
No. Unless you want to die for it. And ...if we were serious, instead of running around in circles over there, it would have been cleaned up like the first GW. We didn't fuck around then and that was made abundantly clear to the world in short order. I personally am not going to get all blowed up so Abdul can sell fucking olives in the market and little Iraqi kids can crap in a flush toilet. Not my problem.



Thank God we don't have people with your mindset in our military.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:28:43 PM EDT
I'd prefer that we didn't lose a single American in Iraq. Let's just leave it at that.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:28:59 PM EDT
Only time will tell.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:38:34 PM EDT
The real question should be: Is driving a suburban worth one american life? No matter what or how you call it, it all boils down to oil.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:40:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gsd-Rocky:
more to the point is it worth you or a family members life.



Official ARFCOM CockSucker... I hope your stay has been nice and I hope you boys at DU have a

good time sleeping on your stomachs.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:48:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 3:52:37 PM EDT by Death_006]
If my sacrifce would not create an Islamic theocracy like Iran, then yes, if only my sacrifice was required to free milions of people for hundreds of years, then yes, yes I would give my life. I would be ashamed to be a person so selfish as to horde the benefits of freedom to himself, letting those who may appreciate it be brutalized by a dictatorship. As far as taking Saddam down themselves, they tryed in '91 but we didn't want to go to Baghdad and clean up the mess for good.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:48:59 PM EDT
The Freedom of Iraq? Not really. Getting rid of Saddam Hussein and thereby eliminiating a serious threat? You Betcha
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:50:08 PM EDT
Those that want to pull out of iraq for whatever excuse (the peaceniks now pretend to care about US soldiers/airmen/marines/seamen, are completely and utterly foolish.

Yeah, kill Saddam and leave, thats real smart, instead of a dictator that COULD help terrorists, lets turn the country over to al-Zarqawi and AL QAEDA. Let's just cut out the middle man. That strategy is quite possibly the most stupid thing I have ever heard.

THINK A LITTLE HARDER. Use those brain cells.

You would prefer that nearly 1900 US military personnel died in order to hand power over to AL QAEDA?

Madness.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:50:33 PM EDT
What is the Military for? Of course it was worth it. If you have something...use it.

Disclaimer: I only read the first three posts.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:54:52 PM EDT
I don't think an iraqi, or any muslim is worth a drop of our blood, but its better to fight them over there than here. We are there and and there's nothing we can do about it now. We have no choice but to win.
It's for the better of our country.

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 3:58:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TwoTwentyThree:
The Freedom of Iraq? Not really. Getting rid of Saddam Hussein and thereby eliminiating a serious threat? You Betcha



What threat was that exactly?

The threat of WMDs?

The threat of diminishing the readiness of our military?

The threat of scaring away enlistees from volunteer armed services dependent upon them?

The threat of fracturing the diplomacy of the post cold war world?

The threat of creating huge budget deficits that may never be repaid?

The threat that anti-American sentiment could be kicked up to such a fervor that an endless supply of jihadists stream into Iraq through the syrian border to fight US forces?

The threat that the real threats to America - Iran, North Korea and China - continue unchecked?


Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:00:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:

Originally Posted By TwoTwentyThree:
The Freedom of Iraq? Not really. Getting rid of Saddam Hussein and thereby eliminiating a serious threat? You Betcha



What threat was that exactly?



The threat everyone with a brain acknowledges and liberals and ultra-right-wing ideologues deny with their fingers in their ears and their eyes squeezed shut.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:01:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gsd-Rocky:
Is the freedom of Iraq worth one American soldiers life?



It is not up to you or I to determine this. it is up to each individual soldier serving. My brother joined knowing he was going overseas to help. So I guess he is willing to die for their freedom. I support that.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:03:39 PM EDT
If you have to ask, then you already know the answer.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:08:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By quijanos:
If you have to ask, then you already know the answer.



That's a particularly dumb response.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:08:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Most soldiers seem to think so.

Was it JFK who said that when one man is not free, no man is free?



In that case, don't we need to draft millions of citizens and deploy to 30+ countries around the world?
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:09:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SubnetMask:
What do you think, out of curiosity?



Do you think the troll even thinks?

I think not.

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:10:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gsd-Rocky:
Death is forever .....



Every man dies. Not every man really lives.

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:15:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By a320az:

Originally Posted By gsd-Rocky:
Is the freedom of Iraq worth one American soldiers life?



It is not up to you or I to determine this. it is up to each individual soldier serving. My brother joined knowing he was going overseas to help. So I guess he is willing to die for their freedom. I support that.



That's not correct. Once a person commits to serving in the armed forces, the calculus as to when a situation merits putting an American in harm's way falls to our political leaders and not the armed forces or the individual soldier. The military is the instrument of policy, not its determinant.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:32:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 4:32:52 PM EDT by garandman]

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:

Originally Posted By a320az:

Originally Posted By gsd-Rocky:
Is the freedom of Iraq worth one American soldiers life?



It is not up to you or I to determine this. it is up to each individual soldier serving. My brother joined knowing he was going overseas to help. So I guess he is willing to die for their freedom. I support that.



That's not correct. Once a person commits to serving in the armed forces, the calculus as to when a situation merits putting an American in harm's way falls to our political leaders and not the armed forces or the individual soldier. The military is the instrument of policy, not its determinant.



a320az is correct.

First, its a volunteer army.

Second, every soldier has a choice - fight, or go to the brig.

So ultimately, each soldier DOES choose.


Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:34:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gsd-Rocky:
more to the point is it worth you or a family members lifeThis is just a cheap attempt at acting like I care about our soldiers so I can bash Bush and be against setting people free. I am really a DU troll, but I am sure most of you figured that out already.



How many of these fucktard thread are we gonna have?
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:35:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 4:48:00 PM EDT by LARRYG]

Originally Posted By gsd-Rocky:

Originally Posted By SubnetMask:
What do you think, out of curiosity?



I am trying to come to grips with the fact that I may very well have to risk my life for OEF.
I have alot to live for and am just curios what some of you guys think.
Death is forever and I see that as a high price considering the Iraqis current behavior.



How will you be risking your life unless you join the military?

To be honest, I have doubts about your later claims (in this thread) of your being in the military because a soldier would not be on this board asking this question.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:37:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By skpp108:
No. Unless you want to die for it. And ...if we were serious, instead of running around in circles over there, it would have been cleaned up like the first GW. We didn't fuck around then and that was made abundantly clear to the world in short order. I personally am not going to get all blowed up so Abdul can sell fucking olives in the market and little Iraqi kids can crap in a flush toilet. Not my problem.



"not my problem"? I guess you didn't think that what Hitler was doing was our problem either, huh?

Comparing this to GW1 just shows that you have no clue.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:42:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gsd-Rocky:

Originally Posted By SubnetMask:
What do you think, out of curiosity?



I am trying to come to grips with the fact that I may very well have to risk my life for OEF.
I have alot to live for and am just curios what some of you guys think.
Death is forever and I see that as a high price considering the Iraqis current behavior.


suck it up ya big puss, this is the most exciting time you'll ever have in your pathetic life! i mean "your pathetic life" as in we all lead lives of quiet desparation unless something momentous happens we can actually be part of...most of us will never know how far we would have gone or what we could have done before we had to get a job, buy a house, start a family and mourn all the things we "should have done"...
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:45:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RikWriter:
In the end, yes. Because if we don't bring Islam kicking and screaming into the 21st Century, we'll never stop Islamic terrorism.



We brought Germany and Japan into the 20th century by destroying them, then rebuilding them. Yes, they had advanced technology, but they had a regressionist system, just like Islam. I don't see how we modernize the middle east with kid gloves...
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:48:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:

a320az is correct.

First, its a volunteer army.

Second, every soldier has a choice - fight, or go to the brig.

So ultimately, each soldier DOES choose.





I agree with your first point. It is a volunteer army and every person has the chance to consider whether to commit his fate to forces out of his control.

I disagree with your second point. The soldier, once the decision has been taken to surrender his self-determination to the military, is no longer permitted to choose whether or not to fight. Recent practice has shown we jail those who don't show up for duty or go AWOL. However, doing so is desertion, and in a time of war, deserters can be shot. Not really much of a choice, is it?



885. ART. 85. DESERTION

(a) Any member of the armed forces who--

(1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to remain away therefrom permanently;

(2) quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service; or

(3) without being regularly separated from one of the armed forces enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another on of the armed forces without fully disclosing the fact that he has not been regularly separated, or enters any foreign armed service except when authorized by the United States; is guilty of desertion.

(b) Any commissioned officer of the armed forces who, after tender of his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, quits his post or proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away therefrom permanently is guilty of desertion.

(c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:48:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:

Originally Posted By TwoTwentyThree:
The Freedom of Iraq? Not really. Getting rid of Saddam Hussein and thereby eliminiating a serious threat? You Betcha



What threat was that exactly?

The threat of WMDs?

The threat of diminishing the readiness of our military?

The threat of scaring away enlistees from volunteer armed services dependent upon them?

The threat of fracturing the diplomacy of the post cold war world?

The threat of creating huge budget deficits that may never be repaid?

The threat that anti-American sentiment could be kicked up to such a fervor that an endless supply of jihadists stream into Iraq through the syrian border to fight US forces?

The threat that the real threats to America - Iran, North Korea and China - continue unchecked?





Broken liberal record.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:50:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By skpp108:
No. Unless you want to die for it. And ...if we were serious, instead of running around in circles over there, it would have been cleaned up like the first GW. We didn't fuck around then and that was made abundantly clear to the world in short order. I personally am not going to get all blowed up so Abdul can sell fucking olives in the market and little Iraqi kids can crap in a flush toilet. Not my problem.



"not my problem"? I guess you didn't think that what Hitler was doing was our problem either, huh?

Comparing this to GW1 just shows that you have no clue.



We didn't care about Hitler until he made the mistake of declaring war on us. If he hadn't we would have been happy just shipping equipment to England...
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:53:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
I agree with your first point. It is a volunteer army and every person has the chance to consider whether to commit his fate to forces out of his control.

I disagree with your second point. The soldier, once the decision has been taken to surrender his self-determination to the military, is no longer permitted to choose whether or not to fight. Recent practice has shown we jail those who don't show up for duty or go AWOL. However, doing so is desertion, and in a time of war, deserters can be shot. Not really much of a choice, is it?





Conscientous objectors are not shot.

They go to the brig.

The soldiers have a choice. They CHOSE to join, and can chose CO status.

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:08:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 5:09:21 PM EDT by BravoCompanyUSA]
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:11:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BravoCompanyUSA:
A couple things:

1)The war to over-through Saddam was not fought to free the Iraqi people (at least not as a primary purpose); it was done to stabilize the region. A region that is so volatile it will probably inevitably become the flashpoint for most every major conflict in the next 100 years. Especially if it is continued to be governed by extremists.

2)The war has now evolved into a bonus round. One that was not necessarily foreseen by war planners and talking heads. This “bonus round” is an away game on the WOT (War On Terror). The WOT is typically played in the stadium of the home team, and the home team can really only play defense. In this situation, we get to directly confront 1000’s and 1000’s of jihadists before they make it to American soil. These imported insurgents are from a variety of surrounding Arab countries. They have come to fight the great jihad with America and have come to die. It’s better we do this in their backyard than the financial communities, shopping malls, and schoolyards of America. As of this date we have lost approximately 1400 in combat. I would say that had we stayed home and sat on our hands we would have lost 10 times that on our home soil over the next 20 years. So from a mathematical standpoint; yes losing one life is better than loosing ten.

3)On another note; if you think deploying for OIF is about fighting for Iraqi freedom and not fighting for you buddy next to you, I ought to punch your Drill Sergeant in the nose, because he did not do his primary job. You deploy with your unit because you can not allow them to go it alone while you sit home an watch cartoons. No One, NO ONE fights for a country, state, piece of cloth, an idea; you fight for the poor son-of-a-bitch next to you, who is exhausted, hot, sleep deprived, scared to death, and fighting his heart out just so he doesn't let you down.



+1
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