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Posted: 10/1/2004 9:36:54 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:41:05 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:42:11 AM EST
time will tell.

The give it all away liberals are the biggest danger to the republic that I can think of.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:42:35 AM EST
Sounds right to me... but where are we in that progression? I think we're somewhere around selfishness and complacency.... moving toward dependance.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:47:56 AM EST
Except the Roman Republic lasted some 450years...

And we acutally have a viable cheif executives position with a established method of transition- that Rome lacked. And instintaious communication from across our territories, which Rome lacked.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:50:06 AM EST
hopefully we'll prove the exception to the rule. the quote is certainly a sobering one.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:53:00 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:54:42 AM EST
Spending $45 Billion for a prescription drug handout is now considered fiscal conservancy, because they didn't spend $100 Billion for a prescription drug handout. The sad and very telling fact, is that social welfare programs are now the only way that millions of Americans can afford to take the medicine necessary to treat their life threatening illnesses!

Restricting the constitutional rights of all Americans has become a necessary step in providing for the security of this nation, because Americans cannot risk another terrorist attack with the magnitude of 9/11. Americans have accecpted these restrictions because the government needs these "tools" to make this country safer from terrorists.

Am I the only one who sees a pattern? The people dependent on the government for their welfare and security. What is the next step, bondage?

What do you think would happen to this country if there was another terrorist attack as devastating as 9/11, especially one using WMD's?

I am very apprehensive about the future of this nation.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:55:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:55:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
Except the Roman Republic lasted some 450years...

And we acutally have a viable cheif executives position with a established method of transition- that Rome lacked. And instintaious communication from across our territories, which Rome lacked.



And what happens in 4 years when you have Guilliani running against Clinton?
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 10:01:50 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 10:06:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
'Once the doors to the Treasury are opened, only blood will close them again.'

Eric The(Republican)Hun



+1



Agreed. The Liberty Tree is thirsty.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 10:42:09 AM EST
It's not "permanently" salvageable because people are not permanent.

Human nature does not "learn" from history. And as Tytler implies, people must directly experience that which motivates change.

It's a cycle, unlikely to change - ever.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:02:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 8:08:37 PM EST by longun45]
The cycle of democracy.


Alexander Tyler's

‘The Cycle of Democracy’


The cycle can only be broken by good men taking action. The action will be reviled by those most affected. It will be like taking drugs from a junkie. It will not be pretty. In fact it will be the most horrific fight in a long time.

To Stand aside and do nothing, is to invite your grand children in to slavery or worse.


Many will say it's not my fault and will point to others and they will point to still others. The ruling by committee must come to an end. The entire cancer must be rooted out or it will kill the country. It may yet not be tooo late. It is hadr to know.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:05:31 PM EST
If Kerry wins, it'll be a dicatorship.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:07:17 PM EST
Sure, the Republic can be salvaged.

But, like the drunk turning away from the bottle, or the drug addict foresaking the fix...

It will be a very painful, very unpleasant experience. Most will want to go back to the painless, carefree times of big Gov't.

Like becoming sober, it will require great courage from the American people, and desire.

Nations, like individuals, have to want to recover.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:09:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
'Once the doors to the Treasury are opened, only blood will close them again.'


Good quote.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:14:20 PM EST
Because of the ease of communication, the trip to the abyss has been exponentially accelerated. Things were designed to happen slowly in our government to allow bad ideas to die of old age before being cannonized into law. Now, crap is US code before anyone can even read through it, due to public outcry. Most of the nation is already dependent on the government is some substantial way and at this point the extracation would be mortal to our economy. Planerench out.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:17:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:24:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/1/2004 8:26:57 PM EST by 1Andy2]
One important step toward salvaging the Republic would be for the Congress to limit the Supreme Court's ability to overrule the Bill of Rights. And yes they can legally do that.

But basically the Republic is gone. We are no longer a Republic. The next step toward complete Democracy is the elimination of the Electoral college. In fact, in many of the states the Electors send to the electoral college are BOUND BY THEIR STATES LAW to vote the way the people of their state mandate. Its only a matter of time before other states do the same or the congress amends the constitution to eliminate the electoral college.

Basically, the reason our government had filters (state selection of Senators, Electoral College) was that without them, the majority would always run roughshod over the minority.

In an absolute Democracy, the majority poor people will vote all the money of the minorty rich people into the government's hands believing that the government will then give it to the poor people. This is a definite trend you can literally see happening. Once that happens, its goodbye freedoms.

edited to fix ambigious phrasing.
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 9:08:56 PM EST
Short answer: No.

Long answer: The idea known as "America" died several decades ago. We are living in the hollowed out shell. The real question is what will be the new America? I think there is a very good chance it will become a socialist dictatorship through inaction, apathy and dependence on the .gov.

Of course, there is the 10% chance that things will get bad enough, fast enough, to cause the second American revolution, which if it can be won by the forces of freedom, might allow us another 200 or so years of liberty. If it takes 50 years to become the socialist dictatorship, we will never see that revolution. If freedom loses the war, then it's likely there will never be another free country in the world as a centralized world government takes power.

If things get bad enough in 10 years, there might be enough people left with the means and guts to fight back. There won't be in 30 years though.
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 5:49:44 AM EST
I don't think it will be saved but I hope against chance that it will survive. Kinda makes me glad I have no kids, I won't be worrying about the world they will be inheriting. Once I am gone then I am out of the game.
I do wish the best of luck to everyone else who will remain and to their children and their childrens children.
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 6:08:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
That is to say, permanently salvagable.
First, this:

Here is a very important quotation for your serious contemplation, taken from the 1801 collection of his (Alexander Tyler) lectures.

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s great civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence:

“From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage.”



Paul Harvey addressed this today on his noontime visit. He explained the concept in his own words, and I recalled instantly the original quote. He explained in his own words, ie, "get free stuff from the government" instead of "largess from the public treasury".
I wonder how many people got the message.



Wow , those words even though said 200 yrs ago ring very true today. It seems everyone has their hand out these days and of course the politicians are only to happy to dole it out as long as they keep there precious positions.

The obvious question is what can we do (realistically) about this?

maybe thats why are forefathers put in the second amendment to ensure that any govermental entity think twice before oppressing us.
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 6:08:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
Except the Roman Republic lasted some 450years...

And we acutally have a viable cheif executives position with a established method of transition- that Rome lacked. And instintaious communication from across our territories, which Rome lacked.



Um...you think advanced technology and instantaneous communication improve the odds of the Republic's survival?

Now I'm as big a techno-geek as you'll find, but technology has two very negative effects in this context:

(1) It is an opiate to the masses. Who really gives a fuck what's going on in the world (or your nation) if you can watch the superbowl on the big screen TV in your basement? The candidate that promises you the most cash with which to buy the most toys will get your vote.

(2) A biased media is able to rapidly swing public opinion (and thus affect the established method of transition)
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 6:10:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury.



Yep. I like ETH's version, too. The analogy to an alcoholic is great, too; the Republic has to want to be saved, and it won't happen.
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 6:15:28 AM EST
That cycle has been proven over and over again. There are no more new lands to settle and start an new country anymore.
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 6:35:41 AM EST
There is no Republic. The War Between the States, the income tax and the acceptance of a "Living Constitution" did it in. The 9th and 10th Amendments are no longer observed in practice. There is one single state.


The Republic didn't even make it to 200 years.

Regards,

Mild Bill
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 7:03:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
That is to say, permanently salvagable.
First, this:

Here is a very important quotation for your serious contemplation, taken from the 1801 collection of his (Alexander Tyler) lectures.

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s great civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence:

“From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage.”



Paul Harvey addressed this today on his noontime visit. He explained the concept in his own words, and I recalled instantly the original quote. He explained in his own words, ie, "get free stuff from the government" instead of "largess from the public treasury".
I wonder how many people got the message.



No doubt they did. They are all likely to want more NOW, while the getting is good.
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 7:12:45 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 7:28:43 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 7:28:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Well, I suppose the one great silver lining in this very dark cloud on the Republic is that, when it craters, those who are left behind will at least have something that the Founding Fathers didn't have when they began their creative work - a FINISHED Constitution that can be ratified immediately.

I would add one little proviso to the original Constitution, however, ANY federal judge who attempts to interpret the Constitution as a 'living document' shall be taken posthaste to the nearest public square, drawn and quartered, and his estate forefeited to the citizens who accomplished the deed.

OK, maybe that's going a little bit too far, but you get the drift.

Eric The(Fundamental)Hun



oh theres defiantley room for improvement in the wording of ammendments.... Fist and second, as well as a much better definition of treason with the cavaet the acharges could be brought by referendum...
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 7:43:57 AM EST
There really needs to be a Const Amend to prevent "entitlements". It is the ONLY thing that will save us short of war.
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 7:50:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
There really needs to be a Const Amend to prevent "entitlements". It is the ONLY thing that will save us short of war.



+1
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 9:20:14 AM EST
I think we are overlooking a salient fact. In order for the government to dole out the public largesse, it must first collect it. When tax rates become unbearable, people will simply stop paying them. Huge corporations will always have the attention of .gov bean counters, but Bob The Plumber down the street might decide to start working off the books. If it starts to happen on a huge scale simultaeneously, there is NO WAY the government can hold back the tide.

The black market may save us all one day.

TheHappy(ClientPaidInCashThursday)Bla­ster
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 9:27:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By the:
It's not "permanently" salvageable because people are not permanent.

Human nature does not "learn" from history. And as Tytler implies, people must directly experience that which motivates change.

It's a cycle, unlikely to change - ever.



A big +1! That right there says it all!!!
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 12:03:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheHappyBlaster:
I think we are overlooking a salient fact. In order for the government to dole out the public largesse, it must first collect it. When tax rates become unbearable, people will simply stop paying them. Huge corporations will always have the attention of .gov bean counters, but Bob The Plumber down the street might decide to start working off the books. If it starts to happen on a huge scale simultaeneously, there is NO WAY the government can hold back the tide.

The black market may save us all one day.

TheHappy(ClientPaidInCashThursday)Bla­ster



If people had to send in a monthly/quarterly check to the govt, then I could see where your statement about people simply not paying anymore when the taxes get too high might have merit. However, because the govt cleverly instituted witholding, how are you going to not send it in? Maybe you could raise your deductions on the W4 to 10, but that'll attract attention.

Definitely, working off the books is the way to go, IMHO.
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 12:33:27 PM EST
Why do you think that the Democraps appeal to roughly half of the electorate? Because they promise "stuff". If I hear one more Kerry-leaning idiot say something like "I was better off under Clinton" I'm gonna scream! These SELFISH assfucks vote with their wallets, and expect the .gov to give them "stuff". Forget the external threat to our country. No, it's about ME ME ME. And you know the beauty of it? These bastards have an equal vote to you and I. Some may say that is why we are who we are. I dunno.....

Also, there are certain rights (unalienable, I believe) that no matter how many people are against them they cannot be infringed upon or taken away. In other words, I don't give a flying fuck if 99% of this country felt guns should be done away with. Nosiree, can't be done (well, I should say "shouldn't" be done). We are a representative democracy but that doesn't (er, shouldn't) mean that the majority ALWAYS gets their way. The majority is not always right.

Keep in mind that at some point the MAJORITY of the German people supported Hitler. In hindsight was the MAJORITY right?????
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 1:06:39 PM EST
Interesting discussion. I'm reminded of a great line:

"Ask not what your resthome can do for you, but what you can do for your resthome."

or something like that...
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 1:33:07 PM EST
It is kind of a bitch watching that cycle unfold.

Great quote by ETH about the doors of the treasury only being closed again by blood,and I agree that it seems impossible to turn this entitlment culture back because a majority in this country simply cannot live any other way as things now stand....Seems we're f*ucked in the long run.

I wonder where China is on that cycle?...are they ready to be just comming outta bondage?just curious...
Link Posted: 10/2/2004 1:53:43 PM EST
No, not in the long run. No one will be able to save it.
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