I've always been told that those who haggle the heck out of dealers get the best price on cars.  How realistic is that and are you an idiot to pay the manufacturors suggested retail price?  What about those lower "4 at this price" ads....are those dealers really taking a loss?  I'm still on the market for a car but need some pointers on how to get a good price.  Any help is appreciated.

Yes.

Become an expert buyer:  [url]http://www.edmunds.com/[/url]

Yes, it is.

[url]www.autobytel.com[/url] good place to find a dealer who will sell at close to invoice

As a former salesmanager for a Dodge dealer, HELL YES MSRP IS WAY TOO MUCH TO PAY FOR ANY CAR!!!

The car business is the biggest whores market in any retail market!! They will give up the farm on any product unless it is a limited availability(ie viper)!! NEVER PAY MSRP ON ANY AUTO! Ask to speak to the salesmanager or GM and they will give you the deal.

[beer]

Go to your local Nissan dealership and ask them the price on a 350Z.  Come back and report to us how far under MSRP you get!  

As a general rule for cars out for a while though, you never pay even close to MSRP.  You find the dealers cost and tack on $350 or 400 the last time I checked.

Speaking of the 350z. Here's what an Ebay auction for VIN # 00001 went for recently  [url]http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1852747075&rd=1[/url]

[url]www.carprices.com[/url] is the best place I've found for looking-up car prices.  It shows you both the dealer price and the retail price of the car and its available options.  The only problem is that their interface is very poorly done with JavaScript.  You'll have to trackdown a computer running a recent version of MSIE in order to use it.  I guess they've got a marketing person that decided it was important to run customers away.  Since MSIE 3.0 came-out, it seems to be the cool marketing thing to do to tell your customers to go away with a message like, "This web site requires MSIE 3.0 or greater..."z

Wow!  Where can I pay $95,000 for a $40,000 car?

These guys are worse than gun geeks!

There is an art to buying a car, but you need to know the important facts.

Firstly, do not go shopping on weekends.  The best time to go is during the middle of the week, usually in the 3rd week of the month, and about 1/2 hour before the dealer closes.  Why?  Well, the best salesmen work on weekends and the newest/worst salesmen work the late shift on weekdays.  Since these lesser salesmen don't sell as many cars, they are very eager when a real buyer is ready to give them a sale.  Also, the sales manager is willing to give a customer a little more off the price to help make a sale for his salesman.  If you go 1/2 hour before they close, you WILL be staying after closing hours while you negotiate the deal.  Nobody likes staying a couple hours later than they have to, only to loose the sale because they were inflexable.

Next, the invoice is pretty irrelevant.  It doesn't take into account many of the bargains and incentives given to the dealership.  In fact, the dealership doesn't pay for the vehicle in full when it is shipped.  It is financed by the Manufacturer, and the quicker they can sell the vehicle, the more profit they can make, both on incentives and lowered rates on the manufacturers loans.

There was a site I saw when I was ready to buy my last vehicle.  It basically gave you the "buy" price, and it incorporated all the incentives and discounts given to the dealer.  It was a fair offer for both you and the dealer as it would still give him a profit, and keep you from spending too much.

Finally, never give them a price you are willing to pay.  Make them work at it.  When they start the negotiations, send them back to their manager a couple times, saying that their offer is way to high to even begin a serious negotiation.  Make them give you the famous "what will it take to get you to buy the car..." line.  Then give them a fair offer, considering the discounts and incentives that are hidden from you.  Stick to your guns and don't deviate from that price.  If it is profitable for them, they will eventually give it to you.

I've done it this way several times.  I always get between $4,000 to $6,000 below sticker.  My last two vehicles came fully loaded, and I received a written offer from the manager that if I buy the same vehicle model from them in the next 5 years, they will give it to me for the price I paid this year.

See if there are any specialty groups interested in the car you want on the net.  I recently purchased a Subaru WRX and found a great site devoted to Subarus.  They had a dealership forum and regional forum that allowed people to share where the best place to buy was and how much to pay.  I got my car at $300 over invoice with no haggling and was in and out with financing in a little over an hour.  I probably could have dicked around for another hundred bucks or so but it was not worth it to me.  The site also now has a sticky for the dealership that is really rotten and should be avoided at all cost.

Another tactic is to email all the dealers in your area with what you want, tell them you are ready to buy, and what is the best deal they can do.  I know a couple people who have done this effectively.

Good luck.

When I went to purchase my blue 2002 Impala LS, I took my girlfriend since she was a former car saleswoman. She said that their profit is already built into the INVOICE price. So the money over invoice price is GRAVY money. So what i did was I said that I will pay 50 dollars over invoice price or I am walking. So ask for the invoice. They will be RELUCTANT to show it, but demand it anyway. She saved me over two thousand dollars!! Jay

Wanna mess up a car salesmans day?

Give him the "Pepsi pricing" lesson:

"Why would I buy a can of Pepsi from 7-11 for $1.25 (MSRP) when I can buy the same can of Pepsi from Safeway for $.35 (cost plus modest profit)."

It's the same with car dealers.
Why would anyone pay SECOND STICKER PRICES (Dealer adjusted fuck you in the ass pricing) or MSRP (Dealer will give you a kiss but no reacharound when they are done pricing). There is plenty of profit for a dealership at DEALER COST.

If you have never bought a new car before then follow this advice: Do your research and practice!

Research using the internet and magazine pricing guides.  Call your family and friends in different parts of the state / country to find out how much they are going for.

Practice by going to dealerships outside of your area. Be a DICK. The salesman and dealership are your mortal enemies!
Go armed with MSRP, Invoice, holdback fees, shipping fees, tax and liscensing fees.
BRING A CALCULATOR AND A PEN. Make the salesman write it down on your piece of paper and run the numbers yourself.
NEVER BUY ON THE FIRST VISIT.
MAKE THEM CALL YOU!

Tips for buying: Go to the dealership a half hour before closing. Do it at the end of the month. Do it when it is most inconvienient to them.

Have pre-approved financing with you. A pre-approved purchase voucher. Also have your insurance all lined up.
NEVER tell them you have pre-approved financing.
Never tell them how much you can afford to spend on payments a month.
DO NOT let them run a credit app until after you are done talking money.

Bring your wife or girlfriend along. Put them into the "bitch mode". Let them rip on the salesman, make him talk her into allowing you to buy the car, make him spend his effort on her.
Bring your kids (or borrow some) and allow them to be hellspawn in the dealership. Anything to bug the shit out of the salesman and sales staff.

NEVER EVER mention a trade in or "PAYING OFF THE LOAN" untill you have reached a price for what you want to buy. Do your research and see how much your trade in is really worth.

A friend of mine just had to buy a new 4X4 so he traded in his 93 1/2 Mustang LX. It was worth (Bluebook high) about $12,000. He owed $4,000 on it, so he traded it in for payoff plus $4500. The next day it was on the lot going for $13,000!

When you have finally reached a workable price tell him " That's the best offer? Well, I don't think it's a good deal" and leave. Make them come back to you.

Make sure you check out the entire dealership (used cars, service, parts)

My personal experince:
I went to the dealership with a pre-approved credit voucher and $2,000 cash in my pocket to buy a Toyota Camry. I found the one I wanted and found a salsman who needed that sale for his "numbers". I went back to the dealership three times before I would buy.
I paid $400 under invoice and I had an alarm system of my choice installed with the system .
The car I wanted had been shipped in November, there had been a price increase in Jan and again in Mar for both the shipping fees and the holdback fees and they tried to charge me for that increase.
I also got some accessories at invoice plus free installation (seeing as how the cost of installation is already figured into the cost).
By doing my homework I also found out that there was an unannounced (only the owner and GM knew about it) $500 cash rebate on the car, plus Toyota was running a special for dealers, for every unit they moved during the month they would be able to purchase two more when the next year model came out and they would not have to pay shipping on it.
I was also able to get them to let me buy accessories from their parts department at a 20% discount on the day of purchase. The parts manager was smiling when I bought two cases of oil filters.

So it pays to do your research and practice.

One thing I would not do and that is play dealership againse dealership. They do talk between themselves, especially if you identify the dealership you are playing with.

Good luck!

Don't forget...the "Dealer Invoice" price is actually a new MSRP.  In other words, everyone and their dog knows that they will NOT pay MSRP.  And because of the internet, people can quickly find the Dealer Cost/Invoice of any vehicle.

HOWEVER, the dealership IS NOT PAYING DEALER COST...they pay less than that due to incentives from the manufacturer, their distributor, and other special discounts they receive due to volume.

Couple other things to watch out for:

1.  Don't get charged twice for the Destination fee (it's on the sticker, but they try to add it back on after you've negotiated your $XXXX off MSRP price).

2.  Don't take their word for the monthly payment...make sure you know how to calculate interest on your loan.  This is the EASIEST rip-off they have because most people can't do it, and they sign the paperwork on the MONTHLY PAYMENT, not the purchase price.

3.  Don't get stuck into paying the "window etching" fee.  They say they do it to lower their insurance cost, and "pass the savings on to you."  Well, how is charging me for it passing on the savings?!?!?

4.  Don't pay the "application fee" of $350.  "Well, it's preprinted on our financing form...even I have to pay it."  This is the biggest load of BS I have ever heard.

5.  Make sure you know what the sales tax is for your area (it's different on cars than other consumables...usually less).  Also know what Title and License is.  They will say, "So, $4000 ought to cover TT&L, right?"  My answer is, "Show me the math!"  They can grab $500 off of you in the snap of their fingers with this crap.

Don't trust ANYTHING they say.  It's a tough business, and unfortunately, very dirty.  That's why so many people like Saturn because of their no-haggle pricing...everyone gets ripped off equally.

Remember that it's a supply and demand thing. Some people have to be the first kid on the block with everything. These people will PAY for their pleasure. Good rule of thumb is the more common and available the prospective vehicle is, the more haggle room you've got. Get into limited production special run cars and you'll be leaving the buyers market and entering the sellers market, and these guys have the money to be players. Just a few cases come to mind - rich daddies paid a couple thou over Monroney to put their little H.S. graduate Queens in the Honda CRX back in the mid-eighties. Vipers as previously mentioned, the limited production twin-cam 'vettes like Liddy drives, the original HUMMV's, any small run Porsche brought into the US, specially badged and equipped limited runs of a standard model(Dakota R/T is an example). you either wait for the newness and rarity to go away, or you become fresh meat for the dealer. If you're in the market for an exotic, you'll probably get a better price if you shop a couple of hundred miles away, 'cause your local dealer, Porsche for example, will not want to give up his margin so readily. Why? He's expected to provide free loaner cars while your's is in his shop, detail your car gratis whenever you leave it with him, throw in some free oil changes to keep you coming back after warranty expires. All this costs him money. If he feels that he'll never see you again for these perks due to distance, he may come down in price. BTW, the hidden extra profit you don't see buried in the invoice is around 2% on American cars. That plus hidden incentives like sales contests make up his REAL profit. Forget what you see on the Monroney sticker (the price sticker on the window). In my college days, I used to date Alice Monroney, grand daughter of the US Senator who put the display of the sticker into law!
I'm a former Service Dept. Manager and retired (at a young age) Dealer Principal.

Yep, supply and demand. Whatever the market will bear. Ya'll gotta do the research before you go shopping.