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Posted: 1/1/2004 12:21:15 PM EDT
 A few months back I purchased a BM M4, brand new. I have not shot it yet. A couple of weeks ago I was looking at different M1A models in a springfield armory add in a magazine. They looked like they would be good rifles. What are some opinions that you have on the M1A in comparison to the M4. In a War senario which would you rather have.THe M1a looks like it would be more dependable. Also are there any special forces groups using the M1As now.
 I have already considered the difference in ammo weight. Also I probably won't be adding accesories all over my rifle
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 12:30:17 PM EDT
mags M1A 50.00+ when you can find them
    AR15 20.00 everywhere

.223 ammo MUCH cheaper

SA quality has really gone downhill the last couple of years

AR15 is far more freindly for CQB and close fighting.

Saying that, if the SHTF i wouldn't feel bad with either although i probobly grab my garand or FAL over either one.

mike
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 12:36:03 PM EDT
The M1-A wins hands down for reliability, but if you have mags you've checked out, and ammo you know it won't give you problems with, the AR is pretty darn good.

I think most here will tell you to get both.

I have both, and like both alot.


Link Posted: 1/1/2004 12:37:47 PM EDT
I would just add to what TBS said that you can shoot a AR15 all day and just feel happy.  Shooting a M1A part of the day will make you sore (and happy).  (Although a AK is pretty darned easy to shoot too, if your objective is quantity rather than quality).


Define your SHTF scenario:

1) You against the bad guys.  It will be a very short fight unless you engage from long distances.  At distances .223 is mostly useful to keep the other guy's head down, and what good is that going to do a lone guy?

2) You and your friends against the bad guys.  Then CQCB rules apply and .223 is your friend.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 12:39:39 PM EDT
As much as I like my AR, I have a problem with a gun designed to crap where it eats.

My next "black rifle" will be an FAL.

Magazines (that work!) as low as $6, and chambered for the 7.62 NATO cartridge.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 12:42:40 PM EDT
To answer your other question, as far as I know the Seals and the USMC use M-14's worked over by armorers, and I thought I saw pics here of some Army units using revitalized ones in Afghanistan.

Mags are expensive, but still pretty easy to find.  Cole distributing sells them on-line and is a decent outfit.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 12:45:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 12:48:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2004 12:48:45 PM EDT by warlord]
Remember:
(1) 308Win rounds weigh roughly twice as much as a 223Rem rounds, so you will carry more 223Rem rounds or less 308 for same weight.

(1) In the book & movie Blackhawk Down, it would take 2 hits of 223 to stop an adversary, whereas it would take only 1 with a 308. Remember, Gordon Shughart got razzed about his M14?

So pick you poison carefully.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 12:52:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 1:22:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Originally Posted By warlord:


(1) In the book & movie Blackhawk Down, it would take 2 hits of 223 to stop an adversary, whereas it would take only 1 with a 308. Remember, Gordon Shughart got razzed about his M14?

View Quote


For clarification this is the result of shooting nearly naked Somalis with the SS109 round which was designed to punch light armor. Basically it made a clean pin hole right through them and they died later.

Had they been shooting .55 grain it would have been more effective.
View Quote


to futher add to SteryAugs post the Somalis were also known to indulge in a local drug with Opiom like effects kinda like what happens when a Meth head breaks throws himself thru a wall body is to hyped up to know its already dead.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 1:31:37 PM EDT
I'll keep what I have, Besides I can't afford a M14/M1A, I'd need to win the lottery just to buy magazines
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 1:37:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2004 1:42:19 PM EDT by Abwehrkommando]
Ok, I have been up and down this topic myself constantly for the last three years and this is what I think:

First, both the AR and the M14/M1A are great rifles, two of the best ever.  I think if I could only have one though I would take the AR for the following reasons.

1) Mags and ammo are cheaper, and if the SHTF there will be a lot more M16 mags and 5.56 availiable than there will M14 mags and 7.62.  Distance and power are great, but unless you're independently wealthy and have good sources for gear, not having rounds to put down range is not good.

2) The availiability of affordable parts and accessories is better for the AR platform.  M14 parts are drying up and the ones you do find are expensive...again, the independently wealthy thing...

3) The Springfield Armory product coming out today is not as good as it was 10 years ago.  You will spend $1300-$1700 for the rifle and then turn around and drop another $300-$500 replacing the cheap cast parts with USGI.  I have been there/done that.  If you want a good M14 type rifle I suggest you by a Polytech M14S for around $300-$600 and send it off to Ron Smith in AZ for his excellent USGI bolt installation and heat treat ($520-$580).  What you get back will be an all forged rifle that is the equivalent of a rack grade M14 for around $1000 even, I have one of these and would take it over anything SA has ever put out.

Don't get rid of your AR, save up and get yourself a Polytech M14 and have the luxury of both.  The best source of info on the M14/M1A is [url]www.battlerifles.com[/url] Warning, if you spend enough time there you will become a member of the "rule of twos" club.

As far as SHTF goes, I'd want the 5.56 platform.  My .223 of choice right now is the Robinson Armament M96.  Then again, if you were by yourself with the bad guy 500 yds away, an M14 with about 16 mags would be hard to beat.  CQB you're gonna have problems.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 1:45:54 PM EDT
Depends on the fighting conditions -

Afghanistan - mountain terrain, longer shots - M1a
Iraq - initial assault - M1a then in the cities - M4

I think in the US both rifles have a use.  I prefer the cleanliness of the M1a and its ability to take a beating and keep shooting.

Bottom line is that you need both!
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 1:55:31 PM EDT
i will take my bolt gun, inside of 1000 yards you are owned by avenge inc, when it gets close i have the m4 to play with, i can disable and dump the bolt rig when the time is right
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 4:12:21 PM EDT
 If by "war" you mean urban style SHTF stuff, the AR is likely going to be a better gun to have. It's shorter, lighter, has enough power, and is easier to work with.
 The M1A is long, heavy, and the ammo is heavy. Realisticlly, people who are at 500 or 600 yards aren't a great threat unless they have mortars. Any one who shoots long distances can tell you how difficult it is to hit at long distance due to wind and trajectory factors.
 Folks who can really worry you are 200 yards or closer. An AR fits the bill here especially in the closer department.
 
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 4:25:03 PM EDT
anyone seen that DSA is making AR-15 type rifles now?
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 4:55:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2004 5:00:17 PM EDT by Thunderbolt]
If you want something for possible fighting get
an AK, it's cheap, reliable, tough. The AK is the best choice for up to 300 yards and will
function under the harshest battle conditions,
doesnt require much maintenance to be reliable.

in a combat situation I would choose an AK [8D]
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 4:59:37 PM EDT
rustygun, you are correct, the wind, the wind, the wind


seperates the boys from the men, i was shooting 1000 yesterday, 30 mph gusts, oh what a feeling...
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 5:01:52 PM EDT
Your ARs will be plenty effective in likely self-defense scenarios. (under 300 meters)

I would take an M4 for urban environment, and M16 for everything else. Fragmentation is the key.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 5:14:43 PM EDT
I have both and in many flavors.

The .223 carbines and rifles are for bugging out - hitting the road or trail with as much weapon as I want to carry a few hundred miles. They're smaller and lighter making them faster to point and work in CQB but still with the accuracy to reach out to several hundred yard. What they lack is the ability to put down targets at great distances and to a lessor extent the ability to turn cover into concealment.

I have a number of .308 weapons for keeping the fort under my control. There's nothing within sight out to the nearest hillside that is cover with these weapons. They also hit as hard at several hundred yards as the .223 does at the barrel the heavier 168 and 180 grain bullets are useable on any animal at fairly long distances.

These weapons are heavy and therefore they would mean I could carry less water and food. Here in the desert southwest water is life - but plenty of rifle and ammo is close behind.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 5:21:29 PM EDT
While shooting at 1000 yards can be a fun hobby and challenging sport, it has about the same usefullness as good shuffleboard skills in a defensive/SHTF scenario.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 5:57:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Thunderbolt:
If you want something for possible fighting get
an AK, it's cheap, reliable, tough. The AK is the best choice for up to 300 yards and will
function under the harshest battle conditions,
doesnt require much maintenance to be reliable.

in a combat situation I would choose an AK [8D]
View Quote


[s]Two[/s] Three things conspire against the AK to make it an ineffective weapon past 150 yards...

1) Crappy sights/short sight radius.

2) Those loose tolerances that make the AK so reliable also degrade accuracy. A lot.

3)  Ammo of marginal quality that, once again, causes accuracy to suffer. The Russian-made stuff is not what I'd call "Performance Ammunition" despite of what their advertising claims.

I've owned a couple of AK's and fired a bunch more. I've never seen one group better than 6" at 100 yards. The AK [u]WOULD NOT[/u] even make my "TOP 5" list for a SHTF weapon due to it's inherent lack of accuracy.

I own both an AR and a M1A. While I'm not by any means what someone would consider wealthy and do whatever I can to save a buck, I draw the line when it comes to firearms. If it's not quality, it's not worth spending your $$$ on. With guns & related gear, you truly get what you pay for. What good is a rifle if you can't hit your target with it?

BTW- AR's & M1A's don't require much maintainence, either. Just a quick wipe-down of a couple of areas on each, a little lube in a couple of spots, and you're good to go.

As far as Springfield Armory's quality these days, it's definitely not what it once was. The biggest thing to make sure of when you're looking at one is to make sure that you're getting a USGI bolt.

Getting a Poly-Tech or Norinco M1A clone reworked with a USGI bolt is a very viable option and will give you a very sound & reliable rifle for a reasonable price.

When it comes to mags, stick with either USGI or Chinese. Everything else will cause you problems. The USGI 20-round mags can be found for $40 each (+/- a couple of bucks) if you look around a little. You can find Chinese-made ones for $25 - $30 if you spend a little time looking.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 5:59:48 PM EDT
Sorry you're account here will be locked until you actually take that Bushmaster out and SHOOT IT! Shoot it and you will be converted.

[;)]

Link Posted: 1/1/2004 6:14:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By triburst1:
While shooting at 1000 yards can be a fun hobby and challenging sport, it has about the same usefullness as good shuffleboard skills in a defensive/SHTF scenario.
View Quote



so stopping the enemy before they get close enough to do an assault is a waste....

long range shooting skills are where it is at, when the enemy gets into the three hundred yard zone in force you are in trouble, that is why they must be engaged at extended ranges, this can keep you alive
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 6:24:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Thunderbolt:
If you want something for possible fighting get
an AK, it's cheap, reliable, tough.
View Quote


He already has an M4...

I have a Bushy M4 myself, gotta say, I love her.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 6:39:30 PM EDT
Military use:

AR-series, hands down...

Since the majority of engagements are within 300yds, the extra range of the M1A/M14 is moot. That's why it got replaced in the first place...

Civillian use:

Here, they both have their place... The AR is more accurate, carries 10 more rounds per mag, and is lighter weight.

The M1A has the more powerful cartridge, and the longer range.

The AR is a better 'combat' weapon, the M1A is a better long-range gun, also good for things too large to kill with .223 (within limits. Most of such targets are also too big for .308)...
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 6:42:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Thunderbolt:
If you want something for possible fighting get
an AK, it's cheap, reliable, tough. The AK is the best choice for up to 300 yards and will
function under the harshest battle conditions,
doesnt require much maintenance to be reliable.

in a combat situation I would choose an AK [8D]
View Quote


I agree with ThunderBolt... plus, what it doesn't have in accuracy, it makes up for with reliability, ease of maintenance, and cheapness.  Ammo is cheap, 30 rnd mags are 10 bucks, and it'll swallow any ammo you give it.  It isn't much good past 150 meters, though- but that's why you have the SVD and PSL....  
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 7:28:21 PM EDT
If you don't plan to shoot the rifle it doesn't matter what you have; and it will be of little use should you ever actually need to use it.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 7:50:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2004 7:51:42 PM EDT by 556A2]
I'd just stick with your Bushie. For a SHTF senario an AR or AK (chambered in 5.56) will suffice. The M4 is a high-quality rifle, and it will do you fine under 150 meters. Plus, Springfield will always be making M1As so there no rush.

If it were me wanting 7.62x51mm, I'd go for The Right Arm of the Free World.... FAL! [banana]


Also, if you can't hit a [u]torso-sized[/u] target at 150 meters with a AK.... PRACTICE MORE!
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 8:00:25 PM EDT
I own several of both, and have for MANY years -
My order of preference:
One - M1A
Two - M1A
Three - M1A
Four - M96 Recon
Five - AR15
You get the idea - I know and shoot (on a regular basis) with more than a hand full of M1A and AR owners. All agree, the M1A is without a doubt a more dependable weapon...IMHO
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 8:13:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2004 8:14:19 PM EDT by Karaya1]
If i had to choose ONE weapon for a SHTF scenario i would choose a AR-15 with eathier a 16" or 20" bbl.  I would probably choose the 16" as losing the 4" makes it a bit better for urban fighting and you dont lose too much long range knockdown imo.  I would choose the AR over the AK for the following reasons.

Ammo availibility- If you live in the US, 5.56 is everywhere.  If the SHTF scenario involved the US military on YOUR side you would be about 100% better off with a AR-15 then an AK.

Accuracy-Hit probability is a high prioriety on my list, if i cant effectively engage at 200 yards that sucks!

Weight- The ar-15 is lighter then an AK, at least in the configuration i currently own(16" Cav-15 mkII)

Sights- the AR15 irons are far superior to the AK's, not to mention the possibilities of mounting optics to further improve my rifle.

I wont go any further because there is no need, i am an AR fanboy and i know it ;)  To get back on topic i would say the M1 is a good rifle, but again i would choose another AR over it.

-Brian
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 8:07:17 AM EDT
the ar is my favorite
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 8:22:46 AM EDT
The AR family is deep enough to have a 5.56 version - M4gery .....AND the 7.62 version - SEBR AR10. This allows a great amount of commonality in function and a smaller amoutn of commonality in the parts.

This is AR15.com, so......GET BOTH!
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 8:31:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2004 8:32:50 AM EDT by DriftPunch]
Always an entertaining acedemic argument...

Everything is a compromise, so you have to evalutate your imagined scenerio to clarify what's best.  Here in the Eastern forests, any activity would be effectively CQB, as the forest density precludes even medium range shots.  Thus, an optically sighted AK or AKM in 7.62*39 would be the best choice.  The ONLY reason I wouldn't select a FAL with SUIT is because long range shots are not needed, and prohibitive weight of the 7.62*51 ammo (I'd accept the weight if long range was anticipated).  The ammo weight problem is not an imagined one.

Much of the AKs 'inaccuracy' is due to peoples' inability to use the iron sights effectively, as they are hard to use for precision shooting.  This being said, they were designed for rough alignment on moving targets, and do a great job of that.  It's quite effective on large targets inside 150 yards, and good optics could extend that a bit.  The simple lack of a need for long range shooting makes it a great choice for my environment.

Again, it's condition based, as if I lived in Kansas, long range would become a major factor.  Even then, only a bolt gun becomes really effective if the target's way out there, so a 7.62*51 battle rifle only really gets you a couple hundred extra yards.

Edited to add, if targets were expected at 3-400 yards, a G3 with a bolt hold open would be the stuff!
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 9:02:36 AM EDT
i have 4 ar15's, a real m14 and m1 garands..i would chose my 16" car for my battle rifle. it is very versatile for a shtf scenerio.. and as much as i like the m14 i would prefer an m1 garand over it. ammo would be the only problem even though i have 1300 rds of m2 ball for it...that's my story and i'm sticking to it!
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 9:07:19 AM EDT
M1A mags are 36.50 at Coles surplus, you just have to shop around!!!! That said, I own an M1A ND A m-4 LENGTH CARBINE.

As much as like both, the ONLY reason i would even take the Ar along is i can use military mags and Ammo!! Otherwise my M1A would be my weapon of choice.

More energy transfer at long range, better obstacle penetration, better body armor pentration, Sniping ability at fairly long range.etc
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 9:12:54 AM EDT
M1A mags are 36.50 at Coles surplus, you just have to shop around!!!! That said, I own an M1A ND A m-4 LENGTH CARBINE.

As much as like both, the ONLY reason i would even take the Ar along is i can use military mags and Ammo!! Otherwise my M1A would be my weapon of choice.

More energy transfer at long range, better obstacle penetration, better body armor pentration, Sniping ability at fairly long range.etc
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 9:41:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 10:02:16 AM EDT
Personally, I'd take both. Standard ARF policy.[:D]

The M-1A, although a bit ungainly, can be used as a very effective club and with a bayonet, a spear. Buttstroke someone, and you'll take their head off. Shoot at them anywhere from 0-1000 yards and they are a total goner. Have a ton of crud get into it, and it'll keep chugging along ( as long as you can chamber your first round, you're cool ).

The M-4, although lacking a bit in the long range delivery department, is small. It can be used in buildings, in woods, in alleys, and can be stored and transported easier. It is a bit cheaper than the M-1A/M-14 to run, but will still effectively drop your targets from 0-400 yards.

Take the M-4, sling the M-1A over your back. Not only will you be able to blast everyone away close in, you can take a singular target at slightly longer ranges or in high wind. It will also improve your machismo image.[:D]
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