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Posted: 10/23/2016 10:35:35 AM EDT
Parents are getting older and we have discussed this. If you didn't know there is a 60 month (I think) lookback on assets when it comes to when medicaid will kick in. What that means if you have/had assets in the last 5 years and need to go into a nursing home you need to spend your own money before .gov will pay. What that means is you can't liquidate your stuff in order to get medicaid benefits. My grandmother burned through almost a million dollar estate by being in an assisted care place for almost a decade of which the last few years she was essentially a vegetable, fuck Alzheimers.

My question is it FSA to dump your assets as you get near the age when a nursing home or similar may be necessary?
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 10:41:15 AM EDT
NO

Financial planning, 'rules' are a 2 way street.

use them or get used.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 10:44:50 AM EDT
Look at it this way.

The Johnson's like to party, they retired with 1,000,000 million in their accounts and spent it all in 15 years, then they had to go into a nursing home.

The Jones' retired with $250,000 they were frugal, never spent a dime, and managed to keep that same 250k 15 years later when they went into the nursing home.

The truth is means testing for medicaid isn't fair because they are only looking at your earnings and assets at a single point in time.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 10:49:28 AM EDT
Obvious.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 10:51:51 AM EDT
Hell yes it FSA!

Retirement savings are just that, savings to take care of you later in life and not to make your kids rich.

Don't want mom or dad to spend all of "your" inheritance on a nursing home? Then move them in with you, hire home health to help out. Don't want to or can't then let them spend their money to be taken care of.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 10:52:12 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By ar154all:
NO

Financial planning, 'rules' are a 2 way street.

use them or get used.
View Quote



this.. they make the rules, so they cant complain when you work around those same rules.... you would be stupid not to try to do the best by yourself and your family..
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 10:55:23 AM EDT
I would venture to say utilizing a wealth transfer program is the very definition of FSA.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 10:56:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2016 11:34:51 AM EDT by MotorMouth]
Yes.

ETA: It's not illegal, but it is FSA behavior.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 10:57:04 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By buck19delta:



this.. they make the rules, so they cant complain when you work around those same rules.... you would be stupid not to try to do the best by yourself and your family..
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Originally Posted By buck19delta:
Originally Posted By ar154all:
NO

Financial planning, 'rules' are a 2 way street.

use them or get used.



this.. they make the rules, so they cant complain when you work around those same rules.... you would be stupid not to try to do the best by yourself and your family..


This.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 10:57:36 AM EDT
They set the rules. Your a sucker if you don't play by them.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 10:58:20 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By packingXDs:
I would venture to say utilizing a wealth transfer program is the very definition of FSA.
View Quote


One could argue that the reason these things are so expensive is that government assistance has created a business model with inflated costs (much like college).

If the government assistance program created the problem, are we not being double taxed by not using it......?
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:01:05 AM EDT
I would be more inclined to say FSA if they didn't have the death tax waiting on you at the end of the game
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:01:51 AM EDT
A former retired co-worker of mine, who has many health problems, has transferred all his assets to his kids for awhile now. He knows about the 5 year deal and either has, or will soon, pass the 5 year mark. While he is not wealthy no one wants to see what they have left, their house and cars lost due to age.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:04:14 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Guntoter:
A former retired co-worker of mine, who has many health problems, has transferred all his assets to his kids for awhile now. He knows about the 5 year deal and either has, or will soon, pass the 5 year mark. While he is not wealthy no one wants to see what they have left, their house and cars lost due to age.
View Quote


So his kids get his assets and i get his medical bills. Sounds wonderful.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:04:34 AM EDT
If it's legal, do it. Nothing immoral about understanding the law and taking advantage of it.

Medicaid is a FSA program, but if they force me to pay into it for my whole life I'm damn sure going to use it if I need to.

Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:09:41 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By dog-meat:
If it's legal, do it. Nothing immoral about understanding the law and taking advantage of it.

Medicaid is a FSA program, but if they force me to pay into it for my whole life I'm damn sure going to use it if I need to.

View Quote

Isn't the question of, should I hide/dispose assets so I can take welfare, the very opposite of need?

And as the OP highlighted, 10 years in assisted living cost the person $1M. I doubt very much that many people have ever paid that type of money in.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:13:44 AM EDT
This is directly equivalent to deductions on taxes.

It's not a "loophole", it's following the rules.

As long as it doesn't put too much inconvenience and doesn't cause problems in other ways (like, what if you liquidate your stuff and then don't need medicare) then why is there a problem?
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:15:33 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By RR_Broccoli:
This is directly equivalent to deductions on taxes.
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Umm, no.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:20:59 AM EDT
I will add that my mother was a social worker at retirement homes for about 30 years. She has many stories that go both ways as far as what's the "right" thing to do.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:21:53 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By scully:

So his kids get his assets and i get his medical bills. Sounds wonderful.
View Quote

Medicaid is welfare for people without assets. You should have money saved for your future health care/long term care needs. If you burn that down paying for health care, you can then go on Medicaid welfare program. I other words, you pay your debts before you start giving money to your kids.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:31:19 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By scully:


So his kids get his assets and i get his medical bills. Sounds wonderful.
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Originally Posted By scully:
Originally Posted By Guntoter:
A former retired co-worker of mine, who has many health problems, has transferred all his assets to his kids for awhile now. He knows about the 5 year deal and either has, or will soon, pass the 5 year mark. While he is not wealthy no one wants to see what they have left, their house and cars lost due to age.


So his kids get his assets and i get his medical bills. Sounds wonderful.
We're well past the point of no return. Either game the system for everything you've paid into or be a sucker because someone else is going to spend your tax dollars.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:40:50 AM EDT
As long as you play by the rules, it is all OK. It is no different than using tax laws to your advantage. All you are doing is playing by the rules they made up. If they want different rules, then they can change 'em.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:41:48 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By ar154all:
NO

Financial planning, 'rules' are a 2 way street.

use them or get used.
View Quote


Pretty much this, IMO.

Treat as a business decision.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:42:15 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:
We're well past the point of no return. Either game the system for everything you've paid into or be a sucker because someone else is going to spend your tax dollars.
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Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:
Originally Posted By scully:
Originally Posted By Guntoter:
A former retired co-worker of mine, who has many health problems, has transferred all his assets to his kids for awhile now. He knows about the 5 year deal and either has, or will soon, pass the 5 year mark. While he is not wealthy no one wants to see what they have left, their house and cars lost due to age.


So his kids get his assets and i get his medical bills. Sounds wonderful.
We're well past the point of no return. Either game the system for everything you've paid into or be a sucker because someone else is going to spend your tax dollars.

I really hope you don't fall into that line of logic.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:43:36 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By buck19delta:



this.. they make the rules, so they cant complain when you work around those same rules.... you would be stupid not to try to do the best by yourself and your family..
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Originally Posted By buck19delta:
Originally Posted By ar154all:
NO

Financial planning, 'rules' are a 2 way street.

use them or get used.



this.. they make the rules, so they cant complain when you work around those same rules.... you would be stupid not to try to do the best by yourself and your family..






This
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:46:14 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By packingXDs:

I really hope you don't fall into that line of logic.
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Originally Posted By packingXDs:
Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:
Originally Posted By scully:
Originally Posted By Guntoter:
A former retired co-worker of mine, who has many health problems, has transferred all his assets to his kids for awhile now. He knows about the 5 year deal and either has, or will soon, pass the 5 year mark. While he is not wealthy no one wants to see what they have left, their house and cars lost due to age.


So his kids get his assets and i get his medical bills. Sounds wonderful.
We're well past the point of no return. Either game the system for everything you've paid into or be a sucker because someone else is going to spend your tax dollars.

I really hope you don't fall into that line of logic.
I pay taxes. You bet your sweet ass I "paid into it". Because no matter what, I have to pay and some fucking welfare rat will spend my money. So I'd rather break the system if possible and get what I can.

It sucks but that's life. I can sit on my ass and save my pennies that I get to keep and live a shitty life or I can spend my money and live better all while having the government take care of my ass after I paid them everything. No matter what, they get my money. I might as well get some of it back.

We're.20 Trillion in the hole. Ain't no sense crying over spilled milk. We're broke and done.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:49:25 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By buck19delta:



this.. they make the rules, so they cant complain when you work around those same rules.... you would be stupid not to try to do the best by yourself and your family..
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Originally Posted By buck19delta:
Originally Posted By ar154all:
NO

Financial planning, 'rules' are a 2 way street.

use them or get used.



this.. they make the rules, so they cant complain when you work around those same rules.... you would be stupid not to try to do the best by yourself and your family..


Yep, everyone else uses the rules to their advantage, why not you.

Same as Trump using all legal means to pay as little tax as possible...as does everyone else. And liberal fuckers like Buffet, and Gates, you bet your ass they don't pay full boat. But the think you should....

Fuck em.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:50:26 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By fla556guy:


One could argue that the reason these things are so expensive is that government assistance has created a business model with inflated costs (much like college).

If the government assistance program created the problem, are we not being double taxed by not using it......?
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Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Originally Posted By packingXDs:
I would venture to say utilizing a wealth transfer program is the very definition of FSA.


One could argue that the reason these things are so expensive is that government assistance has created a business model with inflated costs (much like college).

If the government assistance program created the problem, are we not being double taxed by not using it......?


Its all a scam, a backdoor inheritance tax....they get your money one way or another...
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:52:46 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:

I pay taxes. You bet your sweet ass I "paid into it". Because no matter what, I have to pay and some fucking welfare rat will spend my money. So I'd rather break the system if possible and get what I can.

It sucks but that's life. I can sit on my ass and save my pennies that I get to keep and live a shitty life or I can spend my money and live better all while having the government take care of my ass after I paid them everything. No matter what, they get my money. I might as well get some of it back.


We're.20 Trillion in the hole. Ain't no sense crying over spilled milk. We're broke and done.
View Quote

And that is why we are $20T in the hole.

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people he doesn't exist" should read "The greatest trick the government ever pulled was convincing people they are owed from the Treasury."

Worst yet, is its not the EBT crowd that is going to bankrupt this country. Its going to be the geriatrics.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:52:55 AM EDT
The philosophical underpinnings of this discussion are the problem here:

If I worked hard my whole life, saved money and maxed out my retirement funds, I might retire with a few million dollars. I paid taxes and social security on all of that (either at the time of saving, or upon withdrawal from IRAs/401k's). So, I was responsible, paid my full taxes, etc. And now, I have to spend all of that before I get the benefits of Medicaid (paid for by all my taxes over the decades).

On the flipside, I could choose to not save any money, cash out my retirement accounts whenever I move jobs, party while the sun shines, etc. When I get old, I have no money. I benefit from Medicaid (funded by the people who did earn money and pay taxes).

The person who saves and is responsible gets penalized. The irresponsible person who doesn't save gets a free ride on Medicaid.

Since I'm planning to be in the first category, I fully intend to use the tax and Medicaid laws to my benefit. I paid $7,347 to SS this year in my paycheck withholdings. So far, I've paid $18.5K to federal tax so far this year. I hope to get back as much of it as I can.

(And that's ignoring the double taxation issue of the estate tax)
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:55:04 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By 98kGuy:


Its all a scam, a backdoor inheritance tax....they get your money one way or another...
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Originally Posted By 98kGuy:
Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Originally Posted By packingXDs:
I would venture to say utilizing a wealth transfer program is the very definition of FSA.


One could argue that the reason these things are so expensive is that government assistance has created a business model with inflated costs (much like college).

If the government assistance program created the problem, are we not being double taxed by not using it......?


Its all a scam, a backdoor inheritance tax....they get your money one way or another...

And you become "they" as soon as you cash in.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:55:15 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By packingXDs:
I would venture to say utilizing a wealth transfer program is the very definition of FSA.
View Quote


Au contrair. FBHO's wealth transfer program is FSA. Playing by their rules to minimize their FSA redistribution is fair.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:57:12 AM EDT
Get your mind right: we're all FSA now.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 11:58:43 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By eastonj:
The person who saves and is responsible gets penalized. The irresponsible person who doesn't save gets a free ride on Medicaid.


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That is the entire fucking point of Medicaid/SS. You are suppose to be broke and shortly dead before you see a dime. That is the only way the system can work. But people get entitled.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 12:00:02 PM EDT
You'd be a sucker to not take advantage of the of the system that is put in place to take advantage of you. The system is untenable better use it while you can to get what you can because at some point it's all going to come crashing down and IMO the sooner the better.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 12:01:56 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By packingXDs:

And you become "they" as soon as you cash in.
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Originally Posted By packingXDs:
Originally Posted By 98kGuy:
Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Originally Posted By packingXDs:
I would venture to say utilizing a wealth transfer program is the very definition of FSA.


One could argue that the reason these things are so expensive is that government assistance has created a business model with inflated costs (much like college).

If the government assistance program created the problem, are we not being double taxed by not using it......?


Its all a scam, a backdoor inheritance tax....they get your money one way or another...

And you become "they" as soon as you cash in.


Well, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it....but I am sure that when it comes time for me, this country will be a shell of its former self at best, probably more like Mad Max world.

And I'll also say, it costs a million dollars because its all a scam. The .gov and their meddling have spiraled medical costs out of control...Medicaid and Medicaire have killed it. That is why health care in unaffordable anymore.

Blame the .gov and buying votes from the FSA for all of this.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 12:02:25 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By OFFascist:
You'd be a sucker to not take advantage of the of the system that is put in place to take advantage of you. The system is untenable better use it while you can to get what you can because at some point it's all going to come crashing down and IMO the sooner the better.
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I couldn't find a better example of self fulfilling prophecy if I tried.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 12:07:13 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By 98kGuy:


Well, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it....but I am sure that when it comes time for me, this country will be a shell of its former self at best, probably more like Mad Max world.

And I'll also say, it costs a million dollars because its all a scam. The .gov and their meddling have spiraled medical costs out of control...Medicaid and Medicaire have killed it. That is why health care in unaffordable anymore.

Blame the .gov and buying votes from the FSA for all of this.
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Originally Posted By 98kGuy:
Originally Posted By packingXDs:

And you become "they" as soon as you cash in.


Well, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it....but I am sure that when it comes time for me, this country will be a shell of its former self at best, probably more like Mad Max world.

And I'll also say, it costs a million dollars because its all a scam. The .gov and their meddling have spiraled medical costs out of control...Medicaid and Medicaire have killed it. That is why health care in unaffordable anymore.

Blame the .gov and buying votes from the FSA for all of this.

As a voter utilizing such programs, you are "they". You are the FSA. Your are the government you deserve.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 12:11:31 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By packingXDs:

As a voter utilizing such programs, you are "they". You are the FSA. Your are the government you deserve.
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Originally Posted By packingXDs:
Originally Posted By 98kGuy:
Originally Posted By packingXDs:

And you become "they" as soon as you cash in.


Well, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it....but I am sure that when it comes time for me, this country will be a shell of its former self at best, probably more like Mad Max world.

And I'll also say, it costs a million dollars because its all a scam. The .gov and their meddling have spiraled medical costs out of control...Medicaid and Medicaire have killed it. That is why health care in unaffordable anymore.

Blame the .gov and buying votes from the FSA for all of this.

As a voter utilizing such programs, you are "they". You are the FSA. Your are the government you deserve.


I am not using shit right now, so I am NOT THEY.

Don't be retarded.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 12:13:55 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By 98kGuy:

I am not using shit right now, so I am NOT THEY.

Don't be retarded.
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Of course not! But when the time comes, its OK to cash that check. After all, Mad Max may never come. Thus its OK to partake.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 12:15:33 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By packingXDs:

Of course not! But when the time comes, its OK to cash that check. After all, Mad Max may never come. Thus its OK to partake.
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Originally Posted By packingXDs:
Originally Posted By 98kGuy:

I am not using shit right now, so I am NOT THEY.

Don't be retarded.

Of course not! But when the time comes, its OK to cash that check. After all, Mad Max may never come. Thus its OK to partake.


Well, if I do, you are welcome to call me FSA...but until then, them's fightin' words.

Link Posted: 10/23/2016 12:23:32 PM EDT
Before making that decision look at the quality of "care" old folks on Medicaid receive in nursing homes. You get exactly what the government is willing to pay for.
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 12:33:40 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ar154all:
NO

Financial planning, 'rules' are a 2 way street.

use them or get used.
View Quote

Link Posted: 10/23/2016 12:35:08 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By scully:


So his kids get his assets and i get his medical bills. Sounds wonderful.
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Originally Posted By scully:
Originally Posted By Guntoter:
A former retired co-worker of mine, who has many health problems, has transferred all his assets to his kids for awhile now. He knows about the 5 year deal and either has, or will soon, pass the 5 year mark. While he is not wealthy no one wants to see what they have left, their house and cars lost due to age.


So his kids get his assets and i get his medical bills. Sounds wonderful.


It will continue until the government adopts some China-esqe policy of holding kids legally responsible for their ailing parents or starts rationing healthcare.

Link Posted: 10/23/2016 1:21:28 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By scully:


So his kids get his assets and i get his medical bills. Sounds wonderful.
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Originally Posted By scully:
Originally Posted By Guntoter:
A former retired co-worker of mine, who has many health problems, has transferred all his assets to his kids for awhile now. He knows about the 5 year deal and either has, or will soon, pass the 5 year mark. While he is not wealthy no one wants to see what they have left, their house and cars lost due to age.


So his kids get his assets and i get his medical bills. Sounds wonderful.


So does everyone else including the op's old man, what difference does it make if his pop blows all his money at Vegas before he needs assisted living or let the govt drain his accounts?
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 1:22:59 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By afroney:


It will continue until the government adopts some China-esqe policy of holding kids legally responsible for their ailing parents or starts rationing healthcare.

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Originally Posted By afroney:
Originally Posted By scully:
Originally Posted By Guntoter:
A former retired co-worker of mine, who has many health problems, has transferred all his assets to his kids for awhile now. He knows about the 5 year deal and either has, or will soon, pass the 5 year mark. While he is not wealthy no one wants to see what they have left, their house and cars lost due to age.


So his kids get his assets and i get his medical bills. Sounds wonderful.


It will continue until the government adopts some China-esqe policy of holding kids legally responsible for their ailing parents or starts rationing healthcare.



So that and see how many people renounce their relation to someone
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 10:08:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2016 10:09:24 PM EDT by Banshee35]
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Originally Posted By OFFascist:
You'd be a sucker to not take advantage of the of the system that is put in place to take advantage of you. The system is untenable better use it while you can to get what you can because at some point it's all going to come crashing down and IMO the sooner the better.
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There is the core of the problem. Get mine while I can mentality. You said it right in your post "take advantage" has more than one meaning.

Social security, welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, etc were designed to be a social safety net and not a way of life or provide for your every need nor allow you to live in the lap of luxury.

I have been poor in my life and it's a hell of a motivator if you give a shit!

Motivates you to work hard, get an education, etc.

If you don't give a fuck it doesn't motivate you to do anything other than sit back suck off the government tit and "get yours"
Link Posted: 10/23/2016 10:20:20 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:
We're well past the point of no return. Either game the system for everything you've paid into or be a sucker because someone else is going to spend your tax dollars.
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Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:
Originally Posted By scully:
Originally Posted By Guntoter:
A former retired co-worker of mine, who has many health problems, has transferred all his assets to his kids for awhile now. He knows about the 5 year deal and either has, or will soon, pass the 5 year mark. While he is not wealthy no one wants to see what they have left, their house and cars lost due to age.


So his kids get his assets and i get his medical bills. Sounds wonderful.
We're well past the point of no return. Either game the system for everything you've paid into or be a sucker because someone else is going to spend your tax dollars.



This set up a trust now. With you as the trustee.

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