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Posted: 9/20/2009 6:58:42 PM EST
Firstly, FBO.

I've been in the health insurance industry for 17 years. One large component of cost is that emergency rooms and hospitals are required to take care of anyone that walks in––even if they don't have insurance. The cost of taking care of uninsured is then subsidized by those who do have insurance.

How? The hospital adds up its costs by procedure over the previous year, divides by the number of procedures given and comes up with their cost. They use these rates to negotiate services with the HMOs and other insurance companies. So if you are insured, you are paying more than your fair share since the free services to non insured (and non paying––since some uninsured folks do pay).

If everyone was forced to pay into the system, the charges would be actuarially sound and lower for those currently paying insurance.

I say that it is unfair to the hospitals that they MUST take care of those without insurance. Everyone should have at least a $1,000 deducitble PPO plan. The purpose of insurance is to cover large expenses, not $75 doctor visits.

Would it be fair that you would have to sell your services or products to customers that won't pay just because they don't have the money?

On this one, in theory at least, I agree with FBO. I don't trust his plan one bit and hope it crashes, but it does make theoretical sense.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:00:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By drrocket:
Firstly, FBO.

I've been in the health insurance industry for 17 years. One large component of cost is that emergency rooms and hospitals are required to take care of anyone that walks in––even if they don't have insurance. The cost of taking care of uninsured is then subsidized by those who do have insurance.

How? The hospital adds up its costs by procedure over the previous year, divides by the number of procedures given and comes up with their cost. They use these rates to negotiate services with the HMOs and other insurance companies. So if you are insured, you are paying more than your fair share since the free services to non insured (and non paying––since some uninsured folks do pay).

If everyone was forced to pay into the system, the charges would be actuarially sound and lower for those currently paying insurance.

I say that it is unfair to the hospitals that they MUST take care of those without insurance. Everyone should have at least a $1,000 deducitble PPO plan. The purpose of insurance is to cover large expenses, not $75 doctor visits.

Would it be fair that you would have to sell your services or products to customers that won't pay just because they don't have the money?

On this one, in theory at least, I agree with FBO. I don't trust his plan one bit and hope it crashes, but it does make theoretical sense.


"what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:02:41 PM EST
I dont care if it works.

We dont live in some kind of technocracy where liberty takes the backseat to functionality.

If I dont want health insurance, that is my God given right to make that decision.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:02:44 PM EST
Theoretically, no, it's not bad, based on the same logic that automotive insurance is a good thing.

Realistically, no one's figured out how to make it work right.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:03:18 PM EST
Government plus mandatory anything...you start at "God-awful idea" and work your way up, not start at "good idea" and work your way down.

Maybe my reading is too simplistic, but I looked at A1S8, and the Constitution doesn't authorize Congress to do anything relating to healthcare. Meaning they should stay the hell out.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:05:05 PM EST
Government anything is bad.

/Thread.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:05:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By Melvinator2k0:
I dont care if it works.

We dont live in some kind of technocracy where liberty takes the backseat to functionality.

If I dont want health insurance, that is my God given right to make that decision.

And when you wind up in the ER with a compound fracture, who gets to foot the bill if you can't pay it? Taxpayers. This is why the "I shouldn't need it if I don't want it" argument doesn't work. Unless you waive your right to triage in a hospital ER, you're swapping the burden from yourself to others if you can't pay. Some people can, but it's the rare one who can foot the entire ER bill (and if you've never been there for something serious, you probably wouldn't believe how expensive it is).
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:06:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2009 7:06:45 PM EST by cbrooks]
Low post count.........from CA........ DUMB question........must be a
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:06:40 PM EST
Originally Posted By DemonicLemming:

Originally Posted By Melvinator2k0:
I dont care if it works.

We dont live in some kind of technocracy where liberty takes the backseat to functionality.

If I dont want health insurance, that is my God given right to make that decision.

And when you wind up in the ER with a compound fracture, who gets to foot the bill if you can't pay it? Taxpayers. This is why the "I shouldn't need it if I don't want it" argument doesn't work. Unless you waive your right to triage in a hospital ER, you're swapping the burden from yourself to others if you can't pay. Some people can, but it's the rare one who can foot the entire ER bill (and if you've never been there for something serious, you probably wouldn't believe how expensive it is).




No Im pretty sure I would have to pay for the bill. I am not an illegal immigrant who can be invisible.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:06:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By NoHarmNoFAL:
Government anything is bad.

/Thread.

this....
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:07:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By drrocket:
The purpose of insurance is to cover large expenses, not $75 doctor visits.

No it's not. It all depends on the level of coverage that a person wants and can afford. My parents have a $5,000 deductible, I have a $250 deductible. They can't afford anything better than that. If I can afford coverage that will pick up my doctor visits then that is the coverage I want.

I've had doctors send to visit after visit. At $75 a pop, actually more like $150 a pop with today's prices, I would be broke in a heart beat and couldn't afford to go to the doctor. Doctor's don't take the time to work with the patient and figure out what is wrong. The nurses do all the work, the doctor spends 30 seconds reading the notes before walking in, talks to you for about 2 minutes, makes his determination of either writting a prescription or sending you to a specialist who will do the exact same routine except he will order the $1,000 MRI or write an even more expensive prescription.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:07:25 PM EST
Originally Posted By DemonicLemming:

Originally Posted By Melvinator2k0:
I dont care if it works.

We dont live in some kind of technocracy where liberty takes the backseat to functionality.

If I dont want health insurance, that is my God given right to make that decision.

And when you wind up in the ER with a compound fracture, who gets to foot the bill if you can't pay it? Taxpayers. This is why the "I shouldn't need it if I don't want it" argument doesn't work. Unless you waive your right to triage in a hospital ER, you're swapping the burden from yourself to others if you can't pay. Some people can, but it's the rare one who can foot the entire ER bill (and if you've never been there for something serious, you probably wouldn't believe how expensive it is).




How many of those emergency visits are from illegal aliens?
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:08:03 PM EST
how is the government forcing you to buy health insurance any different from the government forcing you to pay for a variety of services through taxation? Essentially, a health insurance mandate would be no different than a tax increase. I don't understand the reasoning of the people who get so upset at the idea of being forced to buy health insurance but aren't complaining of the many other unwanted things that the government taxes us for.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:08:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Melvinator2k0:
Originally Posted By DemonicLemming:

Originally Posted By Melvinator2k0:
I dont care if it works.

We dont live in some kind of technocracy where liberty takes the backseat to functionality.

If I dont want health insurance, that is my God given right to make that decision.

And when you wind up in the ER with a compound fracture, who gets to foot the bill if you can't pay it? Taxpayers. This is why the "I shouldn't need it if I don't want it" argument doesn't work. Unless you waive your right to triage in a hospital ER, you're swapping the burden from yourself to others if you can't pay. Some people can, but it's the rare one who can foot the entire ER bill (and if you've never been there for something serious, you probably wouldn't believe how expensive it is).




No Im pretty sure I would have to pay for the bill. I am not an illegal immigrant who can be invisible.

Plenty of legal US citizens get off without paying them. My mom's an accountant in a hospital - believe me, it's amazing the treatment people get, and don't have to pay for because of some bullshit loophole somewhere.

But, if you honestly think you can foot a $35,000 bill, go right ahead.

Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:09:34 PM EST
No it makes no sense, and you need to reread everything you've ever read. Or maybe read entirely new things, if you think so.

Good God!
––John Adams
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:11:19 PM EST
Everyone pays their own way, its literally that easy.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:11:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheTracker:
Originally Posted By DemonicLemming:

Originally Posted By Melvinator2k0:
I dont care if it works.

We dont live in some kind of technocracy where liberty takes the backseat to functionality.

If I dont want health insurance, that is my God given right to make that decision.

And when you wind up in the ER with a compound fracture, who gets to foot the bill if you can't pay it? Taxpayers. This is why the "I shouldn't need it if I don't want it" argument doesn't work. Unless you waive your right to triage in a hospital ER, you're swapping the burden from yourself to others if you can't pay. Some people can, but it's the rare one who can foot the entire ER bill (and if you've never been there for something serious, you probably wouldn't believe how expensive it is).




How many of those emergency visits are from illegal aliens?

Lots, and they're part of the problem medical care is so expensive. Many are from legal US citizens without insurance who have absolutely no way to pay the insanely high hospital fees (which are so high because of illegals who don't pay, and people who use the ER as their "Oh I have a stubbed toe, what should I do?" primary care physician).

Like I said in another thread very similar to this, there's no easy or simple answer to the problem. You either leave the system like it is and see ever-increasing medical fees (which will eventually implode the entire field), or try to fix it. I don't know how to fix it, and I haven't seen any logical, fair ways presented to fix it. It's just an ugly situation that no one wants to admit has gotten to where it is because of gross inaction, but nor will they admit that it needs fixed, somehow.


Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:12:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By cbrooks:
Low post count.........from CA........ DUMB question........must be a


You must score very low on reading comprehension tests.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:14:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2009 7:16:34 PM EST by drrocket]
Originally Posted By DemonicLemming:

Originally Posted By Melvinator2k0:
Originally Posted By DemonicLemming:

Originally Posted By Melvinator2k0:
I dont care if it works.

We dont live in some kind of technocracy where liberty takes the backseat to functionality.

If I dont want health insurance, that is my God given right to make that decision.

And when you wind up in the ER with a compound fracture, who gets to foot the bill if you can't pay it? Taxpayers. This is why the "I shouldn't need it if I don't want it" argument doesn't work. Unless you waive your right to triage in a hospital ER, you're swapping the burden from yourself to others if you can't pay. Some people can, but it's the rare one who can foot the entire ER bill (and if you've never been there for something serious, you probably wouldn't believe how expensive it is).





No Im pretty sure I would have to pay for the bill. I am not an illegal immigrant who can be invisible.

Plenty of legal US citizens get off without paying them. My mom's an accountant in a hospital - believe me, it's amazing the treatment people get, and don't have to pay for because of some bullshit loophole somewhere.

But, if you honestly think you can foot a $35,000 bill, go right ahead.


Another health care insider's point of view...interesting.

I still don't trust what the gummint will do, but it is unfair that my insurance premiums go to pay for those that don't pay for services––illegals or not.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:15:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2009 7:18:56 PM EST by Blackwind]
Originally Posted By drrocket:
Firstly, FBO.

<snip>


The above is the only thing I could remotely agree with.


In theory....there are a TON of things that make sense. REALITY is what counts. YES. It is a BAD idea to be REQUIRED to have health insurance. Especially by a Government without a PLAN.


Construct and present a detailed PLAN. Then lets talk about requirements in oh.....5-10 years.

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
how is the government forcing you to buy health insurance any different from the government forcing you to pay for a variety of services through taxation? Essentially, a health insurance mandate would be no different than a tax increase. I don't understand the reasoning of the people who get so upset at the idea of being forced to buy health insurance but aren't complaining of the many other unwanted things that the government taxes us for.


You sir are kidding yourself if you believe we are ok with that as well.



Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:15:33 PM EST
Short answer is yes...What next mandatory life insurance for all parents or married couples because if the bread winner dies then the spouse may depend on state or federal funds until they get on their feet...

Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:18:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2009 7:24:49 PM EST by Curium244]
When a hijacked deeply in debt government tells me and many other americans just scraping by week to week making $8 dollars an hour with a wife and a kid that we need health insurance or your gonna throw us a fine of $3,500 , YES!
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:19:24 PM EST
No matter how noble the endeavor is, once you advocate the use of force on another person to give up the fruit of their labor with the threat of imprisonment or death if they refuse to comply, you are no more noble than a kidnapper, armed robber, or murderer.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:19:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By Melvinator2k0:
I dont care if it works.

We dont live in some kind of technocracy where liberty takes the backseat to functionality.

If I dont want health insurance, that is my God given right to make that decision.


Ding, ding, ding, ding we have a winner. Debate over, next thread.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:19:53 PM EST
That's one think that conservatives and liberals seem to agree on...health insurance should be mandatory, the only exceptions being people who are wealthy enough to pay cash for whatever they may need.

A lot of young people pass on health insurance because they don't think they'll need it...and want to free up more cash to party. The rest of us foot the bill when they end up in a car accident or something.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:21:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2009 7:22:51 PM EST by Paul]
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:22:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By drrocket:
If everyone was forced to pay into the system, the charges would be actuarially sound and lower for those currently paying insurance.


You're saying a lot of illogical things, but I'm just going to focus on this one.

First, according to the Constitution, the government cannot force people to pay into the system.

Second, how is a welfare leech going to pay into the system? By using the unconstitutionally appropriated taxpayer money they receive through welfare checks? If so, then how are they being forced to pay into the system? How is this not me, as a taxpayer, paying for someone else's insurance? Or what about someone who simply cannot afford any health insurance, not even lowered government utopia health insurance? You can't squeeze blood from a stone. How will they be forced to pay into the system?
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:22:47 PM EST
As a consumer of the health insurance industry for over 30 years, I'm willing to bet forcing everyone to buy insurance won't reduce the cost of an aspirin one penny at the hospital and will reduce our premiums even less.

If the .gov is is so concerned, how about we let the hospitals deduct noncollectables 100% and boot all the illegals out of the country?

Health insurance industry and hospitals can cut their charges in half, overnight, making both more affordable to 99% of the folks not paying and stealing services. Yeah, right.




Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:23:14 PM EST
No, but having it be mandatory without a government run option is incredible bullshit. Fuck Max Baccus' lame ass plan.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:24:28 PM EST
It's bad when you have to pay for someone else's mandatory health coverage!
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:24:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:27:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2009 7:28:11 PM EST by DefMan]
Anyone should have the right to opt out. I know a few who have because they need the money.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:28:46 PM EST


yes, and i hope i get fined

Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:30:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By DemonicLemming:
Lots, and they're part of the problem medical care is so expensive. Many are from legal US citizens without insurance who have absolutely no way to pay the insanely high hospital fees (which are so high because of illegals who don't pay, and people who use the ER as their "Oh I have a stubbed toe, what should I do?" primary care physician).



I know ARFCOM likes to blame illegals for every problem facing the US, but medical costs are the number one cause of bankruptcy in the US, and +60% of medical bankruptcies are people who had insurance at the time. And usually a medical bankruptcy means that the hospital isn't getting paid some large amount of money (ever) by a US citizen/legal resident.

One positive step would be to ban price discrimination. Disallow Hospitals from charging different amounts to different companies/individuals.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:32:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By drrocket:
Firstly, FBO.

I've been in the health insurance industry for 17 years. One large component of cost is that emergency rooms and hospitals are required to take care of anyone that walks in––even if they don't have insurance. The cost of taking care of uninsured is then subsidized by those who do have insurance.

How? The hospital adds up its costs by procedure over the previous year, divides by the number of procedures given and comes up with their cost. They use these rates to negotiate services with the HMOs and other insurance companies. So if you are insured, you are paying more than your fair share since the free services to non insured (and non paying––since some uninsured folks do pay).

If everyone was forced to pay into the system, the charges would be actuarially sound and lower for those currently paying insurance.

I say that it is unfair to the hospitals that they MUST take care of those without insurance. Everyone should have at least a $1,000 deducitble PPO plan. The purpose of insurance is to cover large expenses, not $75 doctor visits.

Would it be fair that you would have to sell your services or products to customers that won't pay just because they don't have the money?

On this one, in theory at least, I agree with FBO. I don't trust his plan one bit and hope it crashes, but it does make theoretical sense.


So. What are you asking again?
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:35:04 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:35:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By bear_grillz:
Originally Posted By DemonicLemming:
Lots, and they're part of the problem medical care is so expensive. Many are from legal US citizens without insurance who have absolutely no way to pay the insanely high hospital fees (which are so high because of illegals who don't pay, and people who use the ER as their "Oh I have a stubbed toe, what should I do?" primary care physician).



I know ARFCOM likes to blame illegals for every problem facing the US, but medical costs are the number one cause of bankruptcy in the US, and +60% of medical bankruptcies are people who had insurance at the time. And usually a medical bankruptcy means that the hospital isn't getting paid some large amount of money (ever) by a US citizen/legal resident.

One positive step would be to ban price discrimination. Disallow Hospitals from charging different amounts to different companies/individuals.

You don't really think that the hospitals would then charge everyone the lower price, do you?

That would raise costs for almost everyone, since most people have health insurance and those companies have haggled prices with the hospitals.

Then what? The government determines "fair" prices? lol
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:35:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By DLoken:
No, but having it be mandatory without a government run option is incredible bullshit. Fuck Max Baccus' lame ass plan.

Fuck Obama and every goat felching shit stain that voted for him.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:39:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By Brians_45:
You don't really think that the hospitals would then charge everyone the lower price, do you?

That would raise costs for almost everyone, since most people have health insurance and those companies have haggled prices with the hospitals.

Then what? The government determines "fair" prices? lol


No of course it wouldn't.

And interesting that you bring up how insurance companies decide prices. They hire a third-party company to run the charges through a database of claims data to find bullshit stuff they won't cover, and then find an average price of those remaining procedure codes as reasonable and customary, and then send the updated bill and the final settled price to the hospital. The insurance company pays the third party company a percentage of the savings.

And no, the federal government wouldn't be setting prices, just disallowing blatant price discrimination
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:45:13 PM EST
The cost is nowhere near comparable to auto insurance. You can get the mandatory minimum in Texas for not that much. It will just cover you if you hit someone else. Health insurance is going to be around $500 a month unless you are on a company plan.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:45:23 PM EST
Ahem...

Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:49:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By EasTexan:

"what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

Now where did an FNG dig up that oldie?
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:51:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By LouisianaCarry:

Originally Posted By EasTexan:

"what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

Now where did an FNG dig up that oldie?


It's from a very popular movie released 15 years ago
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:52:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2009 7:52:21 PM EST by flyfishnepa]
Originally Posted By DPeacher:

Originally Posted By DLoken:
No, but having it be mandatory without a government run option is incredible bullshit. Fuck Max Baccus' lame ass plan.

Fuck Obama and every goat felching shit stain that voted for him.




+1

Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:59:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By Kraut1982:
That's one think that conservatives and liberals seem to agree on...health insurance should be mandatory, the only exceptions being people who are wealthy enough to pay cash for whatever they may need.

A lot of young people pass on health insurance because they don't think they'll need it...and want to free up more cash to party. The rest of us foot the bill when they end up in a car accident or something.

Clue: If you think health insurance should be mandatory...you might not be a conservative.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 8:02:12 PM EST
I won't be forced to buy health insurance. I would get basic catastrophic insurance, because I am in fairly good health, just like I only have liabilty insurance on my car because I am a safe driver.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 8:03:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2009 8:03:45 PM EST by AddictedToGuns]
The Socialist door is on the left. Please exit at this time.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 8:04:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By happycynic:
The cost is nowhere near comparable to auto insurance. You can get the mandatory minimum in Texas for not that much. It will just cover you if you hit someone else. Health insurance is going to be around $500 a month unless you are on a company plan.


I have a $1,000 deductible PPO plan that cost a total of $91.00 a month I am 37 in good health with no preexisting conditions I live in Arkansas
that being said I think if Barry O Douchebag should take his plan and shove it up his ASS

Link Posted: 9/20/2009 8:05:30 PM EST


The only way it can be "mandatory insurance" is if they did away with "free healthcare" of any kind.

And that will never ever happen.

Link Posted: 9/20/2009 8:07:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By drrocket:
Firstly, FBO.

I've been in the health insurance industry for 17 years. One large component of cost is that emergency rooms and hospitals are required to take care of anyone that walks in––even if they don't have insurance. The cost of taking care of uninsured is then subsidized by those who do have insurance.

How? The hospital adds up its costs by procedure over the previous year, divides by the number of procedures given and comes up with their cost. They use these rates to negotiate services with the HMOs and other insurance companies. So if you are insured, you are paying more than your fair share since the free services to non insured (and non paying––since some uninsured folks do pay).

If everyone was forced to pay into the system, the charges would be actuarially sound and lower for those currently paying insurance.

I say that it is unfair to the hospitals that they MUST take care of those without insurance. Everyone should have at least a $1,000 deducitble PPO plan. The purpose of insurance is to cover large expenses, not $75 doctor visits.

Would it be fair that you would have to sell your services or products to customers that won't pay just because they don't have the money?

On this one, in theory at least, I agree with FBO. I don't trust his plan one bit and hope it crashes, but it does make theoretical sense.

ERs should be able to turn away non-serious patients who can't pay...

That's a better solution...

Some people literally do not need health insurance...
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 8:10:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
ERs should be able to turn away non-serious patients who can't pay...

That's a better solution...

Some people literally do not need health insurance...


They are allowed to if they cease accepting medicare/medicaid/other gov program patients as well.
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