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Posted: 8/7/2005 9:58:55 AM EDT
Heh, heh, heh.

Save the caliber war for another thread - I'm talking platform only.

I was getting bored for something new, but after looking at the M1A, the FAL, G3 types, AKs, etc., I've come to realize there is nothing that beats the AR platform for accuracy, ergonomics, and versatility.

Armalite and Stoner did a damn fine job - especially considering the time frame this rifle has been in service - 40 years! And no truly remarkable replacement has surfaced yet.

Not knocking the others, just my opinion -


[donning flame suit now ]
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:00:06 AM EDT
for a well trained army, yes it is.

but I still love my "commie dog" weapons
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:03:51 AM EDT
Indeed. But DOD is too preoccupied with foreign dependency on arms now. They don't want American weapons anymore.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:05:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
for a well trained army, yes it is.

but I still love my "commie dog" weapons



You have made it abundantly clear that you prefer commie guns. We know.

ARs are the shit huh? I miss mine. Damned tragic boating acident.

HS1
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:07:29 AM EDT
One of the most potent abilities of the AR platform is its ability to morph into many configurations, all at a great expense to their owners.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:08:39 AM EDT
Yeah, the AR15 series is pretty good.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:09:53 AM EDT

I was getting bored for something new, but after looking at the M1A, the FAL, G3 types, AKs, etc., I've come to realize there is nothing that beats the AR platform for accuracy, ergonomics, and versatility.

Armalite and Stoner did a damn fine job - especially considering the time frame this rifle has been in service - 40 years! And no truly remarkable replacement has surfaced yet.

Now that they can retrofit the piston rods to keep the gas outside, it's pretty much the best overall!
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:10:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2005 10:38:47 AM EDT by 73XLCH]
No. As much as I love my AR, the system is simply not reliable enough in two critial environments - extreme cold and dust/dirt. The genius of the design and the reasons it is still with us is its' unmatched adaptability and accuracy. I have recently come to the conclusion that a new system and caliber is needed. Not that anybody cares what I think..............The new system will definitely have to meet some very high ARish expectations though and this will be a direct result of the AR's sucesses.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:11:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
for a well trained army, yes it is.

but I still love my "commie dog" weapons with AR accessories




Fixed it for you TRH

Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:13:32 AM EDT
Why does everyone say it's so ergonomic? Because you can mount forward vertical grips and different kinds of pistol grips to it?

I have a hard time with the AR's so called great ergonomics. Is it size or arm length, I don't know, but I give ergonomic advantage (and sights too) to the M1A. Call me crazy.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:16:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:
Why does everyone say it's so ergonomic? Because you can mount forward vertical grips and different kinds of pistol grips to it?

I have a hard time with the AR's so called great ergonomics. Is it size or arm length, I don't know, but I give ergonomic advantage (and sights too) to the M1A. Call me crazy.



for me it is the superior sights, and ease of operation of the mag release, selector, and bolt catch. having a magazine that inserts directly without a pivoting motion speeds reloads and also eliminates the chance of improperly inserting a magazine which can at times be a serious PITA on an AK, FAL, or M14.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:20:26 AM EDT
TRH I give you the mag release/ease of change... The rest (including sights) I give the M1a/M14 platform. I don't have experience with the FAL so I can't comment there.

FWIW what about the weak extraction...? Can't apply a boot to the action like you can an M1a, AK or FAL (IIRC it has a bolt handle of some sort)

I'm not trying to crap in your guys' thread; just pointing out things.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:23:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HighStrung1:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
for a well trained army, yes it is.

but I still love my "commie dog" weapons



You have made it abundantly clear that you prefer commie guns. We know.

ARs are the shit huh? I miss mine. Damned tragic boating acident.

HS1



Those boating accident get you every time.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:25:09 AM EDT
I have yet to find another platform that feels as much like an extension of me.


That combined with the versatility and reliability are enough for me.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:26:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:
TRH I give you the mag release/ease of change... The rest (including sights) I give the M1a/M14 platform. I don't have experience with the FAL so I can't comment there.

FWIW what about the weak extraction...? Can't apply a boot to the action like you can an M1a, AK or FAL (IIRC it has a bolt handle of some sort)

I'm not trying to crap in your guys' thread; just pointing out things.



I've cleared M16s with stuck casings with a boot, its more difficult than on an AK or M14.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:27:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2005 10:28:48 AM EDT by fadedsun]
IBTL.

More boating accidents happen to owners of AR15s than other gunowner.

Ben
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:28:16 AM EDT
Yes it is the most versatile weapon on the market.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:29:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:
Why does everyone say it's so ergonomic?



When I say ergonomic, I mean the straight pull of the stock for fast shot recovery - the push is straight back, rather than rocking upward. This is not unique to the AR, HKs are that way too.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:30:12 AM EDT
I've come to the conclusion it's the superior choice for a civilian in the US, but only due to the market.

There are plenty of better guns out there, but they can't be imported into the US anymore.

With that restriction, I agree with you.


Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:34:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:
Indeed. But DOD is too preoccupied with foreign dependency on arms now. They don't want American weapons anymore.



Really? Other than Beretta, HK, and Sig pistols, which long arms are foreign made and/or designed?
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:35:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fadedsun:
IBTL.

More boating accidents happen to owners of AR15s than other gunowner.

Ben



#1 biggest drawback: They're very slippery!
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:36:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TodaysTomSawyer:

Originally Posted By macman37:
Why does everyone say it's so ergonomic?



When I say ergonomic, I mean the straight pull of the stock for fast shot recovery - the push is straight back, rather than rocking upward. This is not unique to the AR, HKs are that way too.



Gotcha, and I agree on that one.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:36:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:
Indeed. But DOD is too preoccupied with foreign dependency on arms now. They don't want American weapons anymore.



Really? Other than Beretta, HK, and Sig pistols, which long arms are foreign made and/or designed?



the M240 and M249 are foreign designed, but domestically produced.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:39:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:
Indeed. But DOD is too preoccupied with foreign dependency on arms now. They don't want American weapons anymore.



Really? Other than Beretta, HK, and Sig pistols, which long arms are foreign made and/or designed?



Nasa Space Shuttle door gunners use the HK G36 (sans optics)
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:42:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2005 10:43:58 AM EDT by Cold_Warrior]

Originally Posted By TodaysTomSawyer:

Originally Posted By macman37:
Why does everyone say it's so ergonomic?



When I say ergonomic, I mean the straight pull of the stock for fast shot recovery - the push is straight back, rather than rocking upward. This is not unique to the AR, HKs are that way too.


You want to talk ergonomic? Try shooting one of these sometime. Much better than an AR.





CW
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:46:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cold_Warrior:


CW



I'd love to take you up on that!


I don't have to come to Iraq, do I?

I'd take a .308 NMD-86 (?), but I'd still like some capacity to go with it...
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:46:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:
Indeed. But DOD is too preoccupied with foreign dependency on arms now. They don't want American weapons anymore.



Really? Other than Beretta, HK, and Sig pistols, which long arms are foreign made and/or designed?



the M240 and M249 are foreign designed, but domestically produced.



Benelli shot gun. Also they aren't even slightly shy about shopping foreign sources for a possible M16 replacement (XM8 comes to mind).
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 10:53:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TodaysTomSawyer:

Originally Posted By Cold_Warrior:
armyadvice.org//images/armyadvice_org/armysteve/9/r_2004-08-30-12%20Steve%20firing%20Dragunov.JPG

CW



I'd love to take you up on that!


I don't have to come to Iraq, do I?

I'd take a .308 NMD-86 (?), but I'd still like some capacity to go with it...


Nope. AZ or NM or NV. Sell you mine for $3K.

CW
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 11:01:46 AM EDT
Oh, that reminds me of another good AR point - initial cost is pretty low.

I say initial because rarely are they not "warmed over."

Link Posted: 8/7/2005 11:05:36 AM EDT
Just curious, is that a Dragunov or a Romak III/AKM?
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 11:07:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2005 11:08:09 AM EDT by TodaysTomSawyer]
Looks like a real Dragon to me.

Should've bought one years ago, but $2000 seemed pretty high then
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 11:07:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:
Indeed. But DOD is too preoccupied with foreign dependency on arms now. They don't want American weapons anymore.



Really? Other than Beretta, HK, and Sig pistols, which long arms are foreign made and/or designed?


They're seeking to replace our amrs with foreign. The two companies H+K and FN come to mind.
I have a strong(unpopular) belieft that all of our weapons should be American.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 11:10:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2005 11:11:07 AM EDT by TodaysTomSawyer]

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:

I have a strong(unpopular) belieft that all of our weapons should be American.



I have an even more unpopular belief that we should look out for America first and that damn near everything we buy be American. Then, if there is some niche foreign item, okay.

Hell, I even had Kay Bailey Hutchison call me an isolationist in a letter over NAFTA years ago. It's a badge of honor to me
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 11:10:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MachinegunManiac:

I have a strong(unpopular) belieft that all of our weapons should be American.



I agree completely.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 2:45:39 PM EDT
So, nobody wants to respond to my statement that the AR doesn't do well in extreme cold/dusty/dirty conditions? And I agree that the U.S. should be able to come up with a weapon for our own Mil. What's up with that? And no, I do not think the AK is the greatest thing to ever shoot bullets.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 2:47:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2005 2:50:01 PM EDT by TheRedHorseman]

Originally Posted By 73XLCH:
So, nobody wants to respond to my statement that the AR doesn't do well in extreme cold/dusty/dirty conditions? And I agree that the U.S. should be able to come up with a weapon for our own Mil. What's up with that? And no, I do not think the AK is the greatest thing to ever shoot bullets.



the stoner system works well in the cold, in the dust, and even when dirty. for cold and dust the operator needs to take a few precautions as in using the right lube or none at all. and yes our weapons should be domestically produced. unfortunately with no civ market for machineguns anymore (thanks 86 FOPA amendment) creative design of such weapons has been stifled due to lack of demand.
other than a change to a different caliber such as 6.8 SPC, and collapsing stocks on all M16 derivative weapons(m4, etc...) I see no need to change what we have. the stoner system can continue to serve our military well for another 20 years
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 2:50:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 73XLCH:
So, nobody wants to respond to my statement that the AR doesn't do well in extreme cold/dusty/dirty conditions?



I don't really know enough to comment other than I know the initial arctic tests of the AR failed miserably. I don't think it is the same now, though.

Seems to me everyone complains about dust and dirt with every rifle (i.e. sand cuts in FAL bolts - that sort of thing), well maybe not an AK - not much maintenance to them - hose it down and spray with some oil
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 3:04:21 PM EDT

Is it time to admit it? The AR platform is the best combat rifle ever yet devised.


Fixed it for you. Always room for improvment


I've come to the conclusion it's the superior choice for a civilian in the US, but only due to the market.

There are plenty of better guns out there, but they can't be imported into the US anymore.

With that restriction, I agree with you.



I find that hard to beleve. At best they might be as good. For one thing other gun makers seem to be doing their darndest to AVOID using the obvious advantage of rail interface systems. In some cases like the XM-8/G36's built in sights they are quite silly about it. Why have sights, other than simple irons for emergency use, that cant be taken off and replaced when in this era they are the first things that are going to be obsolete?


You want to talk ergonomic? Try shooting one of these sometime. Much better than an AR.



Only because you seem to be EXACTLY the same height and length of arm as the designer of the SVD was and are not the same size as who designed the AR stock- this is a problem with all fixed stocks. And is why the telestock is now being made standard on the long M16A4 as well, which solves this problem and the problem posed by the IBV adding a inch and a half or so to the length of pull.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 3:16:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2005 3:17:07 PM EDT by DevL]

Originally Posted By macman37:
Why does everyone say it's so ergonomic? Because you can mount forward vertical grips and different kinds of pistol grips to it?

I have a hard time with the AR's so called great ergonomics. Is it size or arm length, I don't know, but I give ergonomic advantage (and sights too) to the M1A. Call me crazy.



Yes the M1A is perfect for CQB use with body armor on.

Oh yes easy to use with taclights and lasers....

Oh and its so wonderfully fast to reload...

Oh wait lets not forget the ease of mounting an optic and getting a good cheek weld while allowing a fast return to BUIS.

OK, OK... I will just say it...

YOU ARE CRAZY
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 3:19:24 PM EDT
The AR was ruined when they started making the M4.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 3:20:35 PM EDT
I like the gun, I like the caliber.


People like to bitch about it. Good for them. I could care less what anyone else uses.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 3:41:10 PM EDT
It is the best overall system at the moment. No other system can go from CQB 11.5" barrel to 24" varmiter in such little time.

But I would like to see the H&K M416s gas system used.

Link Posted: 8/7/2005 4:36:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:
Why does everyone say it's so ergonomic? Because you can mount forward vertical grips and different kinds of pistol grips to it?

I have a hard time with the AR's so called great ergonomics. Is it size or arm length, I don't know, but I give ergonomic advantage (and sights too) to the M1A. Call me crazy.



I love the AR and FAL, but I think a stock grip rifle like the M1A is more ergonomic too.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 4:41:29 PM EDT
The AR is not the greates weapon out there. The operating mechanism isn't forgiving on neglect while a lot of comtemporary designs are.

The ONLY reason for the go fast accessories is because its popular among civilians.

If an AK were as popular in the US as the AR was there would be all kinds of accessories for them. Lots of weapons use the "upper" and "lower" design that are more reliable in extreme conditions. If they were as popular then there would be more options for configurations.

The AR is nice in its felt recoil, but the lights, lasers and vertical foregrips are NOT well thought out.

The idea behind HK's sight was that 1. Modern well made optics are pretty hard to break so might as well design them as the primary sight. Thats how their going to be used in the field-as the primary. The laser and illuminator for NVG use was also built into their sight housing. Very compact and streamlined approach IMO. There isn't a light because US forces generally don't use lights-they have NVGs. Personally I don't like vertical forgrips.

From a practical standpoint the AR is the best weapons system to currently own. From a purely technical standpoint its mediocer.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 4:53:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 73XLCH:
So, nobody wants to respond to my statement that the AR doesn't do well in extreme cold/dusty/dirty conditions? And I agree that the U.S. should be able to come up with a weapon for our own Mil. What's up with that? And no, I do not think the AK is the greatest thing to ever shoot bullets.



My friend was in Afganistan for a year. Plenty dusty there. He said his squad didnt have any problems with their M4 rifles. Knowing him I wouldnt be want to be caught not cleaning my weapon. He is hell on people not cleaning their rifles.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 5:16:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TodaysTomSawyer:

Originally Posted By 73XLCH:
So, nobody wants to respond to my statement that the AR doesn't do well in extreme cold/dusty/dirty conditions?



I don't really know enough to comment other than I know the initial arctic tests of the AR failed miserably. I don't think it is the same now, though.

Seems to me everyone complains about dust and dirt with every rifle (i.e. sand cuts in FAL bolts - that sort of thing), well maybe not an AK - not much maintenance to them - hose it down and spray with some oil



I suggest you do a little research on those so-called "tests".
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 5:30:35 PM EDT
AR - FAL - AK

I love them all equally.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 5:36:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
The AR is not the greates weapon out there. The operating mechanism isn't forgiving on neglect while a lot of comtemporary designs are.

The ONLY reason for the go fast accessories is because its popular among civilians.

If an AK were as popular in the US as the AR was there would be all kinds of accessories for them. Lots of weapons use the "upper" and "lower" design that are more reliable in extreme conditions. If they were as popular then there would be more options for configurations.

The AR is nice in its felt recoil, but the lights, lasers and vertical foregrips are NOT well thought out.

The idea behind HK's sight was that 1. Modern well made optics are pretty hard to break so might as well design them as the primary sight. Thats how their going to be used in the field-as the primary. The laser and illuminator for NVG use was also built into their sight housing. Very compact and streamlined approach IMO. There isn't a light because US forces generally don't use lights-they have NVGs. Personally I don't like vertical forgrips.

From a practical standpoint the AR is the best weapons system to currently own. From a purely technical standpoint its mediocer.



The AR15 cannot be "technically mediocer", for the simple reason that there has not been a new rifle mechanism introduced in more than 50 years. Every rifle out there is a combination of different bolts and operating mechanisms combined togeather. Some combinations work better than others. The AR15 is a good combination for a rifle- but not a light machine gun. For that you would want a piston. But the pistonleess system saves parts and saves weight over the forend in exchange for running hot and making the reciever dirtier.

The problem with the HK sight was that it could not be removed when it was obsolete- not when it was broken. Though most end users seem to like the idea of back-up irons. If combining all those features in one unit is so hot, ask Trijjicon to build one. And when the first rifle sized IIR becomes available you will still be able to mount it on your AR after you remove your multi-unit- but not on your HK without replacing the upper reciever.

Link Posted: 8/7/2005 5:38:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 73XLCH:
No. As much as I love my AR, the system is simply not reliable enough in two critial environments - extreme cold and dust/dirt. The genius of the design and the reasons it is still with us is its' unmatched adaptability and accuracy.



If you don't go ga-ga with lubrication it is very reliable in the cold. People over-lubricate in general. The bitch about the cold is getting out the shells that melt and then freeze into the snow/ice.
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 5:47:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By macman37:
Why does everyone say it's so ergonomic? Because you can mount forward vertical grips and different kinds of pistol grips to it?

I have a hard time with the AR's so called great ergonomics. Is it size or arm length, I don't know, but I give ergonomic advantage (and sights too) to the M1A. Call me crazy.



Yes the M1A is perfect for CQB use with body armor on.

Oh yes easy to use with taclights and lasers....

Oh and its so wonderfully fast to reload...

Oh wait lets not forget the ease of mounting an optic and getting a good cheek weld while allowing a fast return to BUIS.

OK, OK... I will just say it...

YOU ARE CRAZY



LOL I knew someone was going to take me up on it!

Mebbe it's just me. I'm a bit larger and the stock and cheek weld just fit me better. I see the sights better with an M1a.

Hasn't stopped me from appreciating the AR series though...
Link Posted: 8/7/2005 5:51:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ShamusMcOI:
I have yet to find another platform that feels as much like an extension of me..



I do, the M1 and M14 point like shotguns. You don't need any kind of sights in CQB with those rifles.
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